White Front sleeping problem

[pomonabill221]

Quality is plenty good, Bill. I'll be watching...

THANK YOU for setting this up.

NO...thank YOU for taking an interest! I really appreciate everyone's help!

To switch cameras, click in the left box where the cameras are listed and the camera will fill the view box.
You can zoom in by using the scroll wheel on you mouse (quality will suffer though so use zoom sparingly).
To pan the zoomed view, just drag in the video.
To zoom out, just scroll the other way in the video window.

 

[ShellyBorg]

"Lactate Dehydrogenase (LDH)
Normal serum LDH levels range between 70 and 400 IU/L. Elevated values are most common with liver
disease in birds, and the values are thought to rise and fall more quickly than AST levels in birds with this 7
condition. These differences may provide information on the chronicity of the liver disease. Elevations
may also occur with heart or muscle damage. If values are increased when creatinine phosphokinase
(CPK) values are normal, liver disease is probably indicated. As with uric acid and AST, decreased values
are seen in end-stage liver disease. "

From above link. So 70 is at the low end of normal.

 

[ShellyBorg]

Old World Aviaries: The Complete Blood Count

Monocytes: These are the largest WBCs found in avian blood, and they are very similar in appearance to lymphocytes. They occur in small numbers with a normal range of 0 – 3%. An increase in the percentage of monocytes (up to 10%) is seen with certain chronic diseases such as psittacosis, systemic fungal infections, tuberculosis, and massive tissue destruction. Changes in cell morphology are not significant.

The evaluation of the WBC count is most useful in the assessment of the progress of an avian patient. For example, a bird with an initial leukocytosis, increased heterophils which appear toxic, and reactive lymphocytes would be showing a favorable response to therapy if the total WBC and heterophil counts were decreasing, the toxic heterophils had disappeared, and the reactive lymphocytes returned to normal. The WBC count is thus an important monitor for effective therapy.

 

[ShellyBorg]

I am in! Worked first time this time.

 

[pomonabill221]

I am going to give him a "crunchy" (a piece of raw pasta), so you can see how he eats it.

 

[pomonabill221]

Don't know if you saw it but when he was trying to climb back up, he lost his footing and fell.
He landed on the bottom of his cage (just out of view).
I perched him and showed him to the camera, and he nailed me good.
Put him back on one of his perches.... goes with the territory!

 

[ShellyBorg]

That is a tall cage. With him losing his balance I think I would look at moving him to a temp cage. I have used large wire dog crates as great travel cages and emergence cage. Danny stayed in one for 2 weeks as his cage was worked on. That would make injury less likely.

 

[JerseyWendy]

No, I missed it, I'm sorry Bill. I was snuggling with my fids one more time before I tucked them in for the night.

I see his is now on the outside perch.

I'm logging out for the night, my pups need to be walked..but I'll stay logged onto the camera, so I can have a peek when I get back.

 

[pomonabill221]

That is a tall cage. With him losing his balance I think I would look at moving him to a temp cage. I have used large wire dog crates as great travel cages and emergence cage. Danny stayed in one for 2 weeks as his cage was worked on. That would make injury less likely.

I do have a travel cage that I can put him in and place the perch low.
the height from the lower perch that he sleeps on to the bottom of the cage is about 20", but I am going to lower it to about 6-8" and put a towel under the perch that he sleeps on.
OR just use the travel cage for when he goes to bed...
I'll try that tonight and see how he does.

from the articles that I read, it doesn't really seem like he had a stroke as he isn't very "lame" during the day, and can climb and has use of both his wings.... really don't know though.

Thanks to all that have provided me with the great information AND support!

Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

No, I missed it, I'm sorry Bill. I was snuggling with my fids one more time before I tucked them in for the night.

I see his is now on the outside perch.

I'm logging out for the night, my pups need to be walked..but I'll stay logged onto the camera, so I can have a peek when I get back.

He is now eating his vegs (and so is Luiji, the Yellow Naped)... they wouldn't miss that for ANYTHING!

He does move around alot during the day, inside/outside/lower perch to drink (I did that on purpose so he had to climb around).

It's JUST the sleeping and night time that is strange!!! If I hadn't caught him "looking at the floor" when he was sleeping, I would have never seen this or been concerned!

BTW... If I get a phone call, I may have to disconnect the bird video feed because my phone is VOIP and uses the same DSL connection, so if the feed goes down, that is probably what happened.

Bill

 

[ShellyBorg]

As I said talk to your vet about Vit B shots. They really do a great job perking a sick animal up. And if they are not needed that are just flushed out of the body with no side effects.

With the more I am reading and you are saying I am thinking Vit diffencice. We really don't have all the pieces of the puzzle for feeding these guys yet and as he is older that could really be a likely cause. The only thing I am also looking at is a fungal infection with the high white blood count. Was that looked at?

I am really pulling for you and Toots. My Danny came to me sick and with malnutrition. His beak was so bad he could not feed himself well. So these silly Zons have worked there way into my heart!

 

[pomonabill221]

As I said talk to your vet about Vit B shots. They really do a great job perking a sick animal up. And if they are not needed that are just flushed out of the body with no side effects.

With the more I am reading and you are saying I am thinking Vit diffencice. We really don't have all the pieces of the puzzle for feeding these guys yet and as he is older that could really be a likely cause. The only thing I am also looking at is a fungal infection with the high white blood count. Was that looked at?

I am really pulling for you and Toots. My Danny came to me sick and with malnutrition. His beak was so bad he could not feed himself well. So these silly Zons have worked there way into my heart!

Thank You Shelly....
Yes, we did look at the fungal infection possibility and he did go through a course of Floxacin, Vibramycin and nistatin (sp?) so don't know... I didn't think his white cell count was high though???

I will ask my vet about vit b shot, if nothing else to help Toots and see what happens... I just don't know right now, but the more questions I ask, the more likely it might "ring a bell" to my vet. I do like her and she does seem to do her research and knows about things when I ask her.

Thank You for the tips!
Bill

 

[ShellyBorg]

You had said that the Monocytes was 4% Anything over 3% is elevated. These are white blood cells.

Monocytes: These are the largest WBCs found in avian blood, and they are very similar in appearance to lymphocytes. They occur in small numbers with a normal range of 0 – 3%. An increase in the percentage of monocytes (up to 10%) is seen with certain chronic diseases such as psittacosis, systemic fungal infections, tuberculosis, and massive tissue destruction.".

 

[pomonabill221]

Yes I noticed the Monocytes being high also. The test results say that 0-2 is the range, and it was flagged as high (4%).
His weight is fine (214g) and has been as high as 217g but between my digital food scale and the vets, this is well within tolerance, plus the time of day the weight was taken.
I just weighed him and it's 215g....
The Monocytes are another thing on my list to check with the vet.
I will update as I get info.

Bill

 

[JerseyWendy]

Bill, I logged back in just before 6AM your time, and watched Toots closely. A few times he looked like he wanted to tuck himself in (head in the back), but he didn't. I also observed how he crouches...lower and lower, then righting himself back up. Then he started preening a bit, ....and then all the behavior repeated.

He is certainly not getting a good night's rest this way. Poor bub!

I have a question, and maybe some ideas.

What type of perch is he sitting on? It appears to have a rather smooth surface.

Here are a few ideas/suggestions, in hopes of making him more comfortable

1. Offer a variety of different perches, preferably one where he can wrap his foot around, WITH bark for grip, and another that is rather thick, so he almost stands flat (a fat cholla perch).

2. You could place another perch right behind Toots, so that we he starts "sinking", he could actually rest his head on the second perch and won't have to worry about falling off.

3. Possibly offer him a platform to sleep on.

Here are some links to show you what I'm taking about.
Polly's Manu Mineral Cactus Perch Large - POLLY'S PET PRODUCTS by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Polly's Cholla Wood Perch Large - POLLY'S PET PRODUCTS by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Cholla Single Bolt-On Perch 14" - NATURAL WOOD PERCHES by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Natural Wood Full Length Perch - WOOD PERCHES (NATURAL) by Bird Paradise

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Caitec-Shelf-Barspacing-White-Color/dp/B001ODZDO0/ref=sr_1_4?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1375364183&sr=1-4&keywords=corner+platform+perch"]Amazon.com: Caitec Bird Toy Shelf Barspacing 12in x 5/8in White Color: Pet Supplies[/ame]

 

[Pajarita]

First of all, I am also not a veterinarian and never had any formal schooling on anything remotely related and what I know it's from experience (both personal and from other people who ask my opinion on their birds problems and provide me with X-Rays, blood work, prognosis, treatments, etc) so don't take anything I say like the gospel but I have some questions and comments:

Has the doctor considered liver failure? Has he had a bile acids test? Because it's the only way to know how the liver is working and, in my personal experience, all older zons have liver problems. High chloride and low phosphorus are both indicative of it PLUS the new X-ray seems to show (in my personal and uneducated experience) an enlarged liver as well as a bit of fluids in his abdomen.

Has he ever had heavy metal poisoning? Because the old X-Ray appears to show metal in the gizzard and that causes A LOT of damage to the liver - damage which needs to be treated with supplements for the rest of the parrot's life -which you never did mention when you explained his diet and, by the way, his diet seems to be very high in protein and very low in fiber (the fiber they add to pellets has been found in tests not to work for birds although it's very good for mammals) AND also very little phytonutrients and enzymes (you can't get them in pellets, they need to come from fresh plant material). This is not good for any parrot but, most especially for zons which require a diet of mostly fresh plant material and low protein.

Parrots with acute liver damage would also show high monocytes as these are used for inflammation and cannot take lots of medicines (antibiotics, pain killers, anti-virals all go through the liver, antifungals been especially bad for it) so his deterioration despite all the medicines would make sense if this is what is wrong with him.

Also, liver failure kills because the body is filled up with toxins the liver can no longer get rid of... it's like slow poisoning - and they show the symptoms you talk about because their motor skills become terribly impaired due to the toxins. They become incoordinated and like whoozy-headed, often tripping, not been able to hold things with their feet, etc.

Again, I stress: I am not a vet but I have several birds with advanced liver damage, some due to bad diet, some due to disease (like chlamydiosis) and some post metal poisoning so I've gotten a bit of experience with the problem and, although a bile acids test is not cheap (prices vary but it goes for around $125-140), it is the ONLY way to accurately measure liver function.

 

[pomonabill221]

Bill, I logged back in just before 6AM your time, and watched Toots closely. A few times he looked like he wanted to tuck himself in (head in the back), but he didn't. I also observed how he crouches...lower and lower, then righting himself back up. Then he started preening a bit, ....and then all the behavior repeated.

He is certainly not getting a good night's rest this way. Poor bub!

I have a question, and maybe some ideas.

What type of perch is he sitting on? It appears to have a rather smooth surface. It is a wood dowel that I wrapped a washcloth around for better grip. Sometimes he uses the cloth and sometimes he sits on the wood

Here are a few ideas/suggestions, in hopes of making him more comfortable

1. Offer a variety of different perches, preferably one where he can wrap his foot around, WITH bark for grip, and another that is rather thick, so he almost stands flat (a fat cholla perch). (plz see pictures of his perches)

2. You could place another perch right behind Toots, so that we he starts "sinking", he could actually rest his head on the second perch and won't have to worry about falling off. (yes, his platform is to the left of his perch and he does turn around sometimes)

3. Possibly offer him a platform to sleep on. (already done... he is still getting used to it, but I force him to stand on it when he eats his vegs.)

Here are some links to show you what I'm taking about.
Polly's Manu Mineral Cactus Perch Large - POLLY'S PET PRODUCTS by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Polly's Cholla Wood Perch Large - POLLY'S PET PRODUCTS by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Cholla Single Bolt-On Perch 14" - NATURAL WOOD PERCHES by MY SAFE BIRD STORE

Natural Wood Full Length Perch - WOOD PERCHES (NATURAL) by Bird Paradise

Amazon.com: Caitec Bird Toy Shelf Barspacing 12in x 5/8in White Color: Pet Supplies

I have attached pics of his perches with balloons pointing them out.
VERY good ideas though!!! I will have to try some "alterations" to his cage to see what works best.
Thank You
Bill
(did you have trouble logging into the camera today?)

 

[JerseyWendy]

No Bill, no trouble at all.

And wow...you sure have some AWESOME perches there for him. Sorry, I couldn't tell via the camera, plus my eyes were glued on Toots.

 

[pomonabill221]

First of all, I am also not a veterinarian and never had any formal schooling on anything remotely related and what I know it's from experience (both personal and from other people who ask my opinion on their birds problems and provide me with X-Rays, blood work, prognosis, treatments, etc) so don't take anything I say like the gospel but I have some questions and comments:

Has the doctor considered liver failure? I thought she did but will ask. Has he had a bile acids test? (no) Because it's the only way to know how the liver is working and, in my personal experience, all older zons have liver problems. High chloride and low phosphorus are both indicative of it PLUS the new X-ray seems to show (in my personal and uneducated experience) an enlarged liver as well as a bit of fluids in his abdomen. hhmm... dr. said that organs looked normal.. another q for the dr.

Has he ever had heavy metal poisoning? Because the old X-Ray appears to show metal in the gizzard and that causes A LOT of damage to the liver I asked the vet about that (other vet did old xray) and he didn't think it was metal... Toots has never had metal poisoning. I will show the xray to my present Dr. and see what she says - damage which needs to be treated with supplements for the rest of the parrot's life -which you never did mention when you explained his diet and, by the way, his diet seems to be very high in protein and very low in fiber (the fiber they add to pellets has been found in tests not to work for birds although it's very good for mammals) AND also very little phytonutrients and enzymes (you can't get them in pellets, they need to come from fresh plant material). This is not good for any parrot but, most especially for zons which require a diet of mostly fresh plant material and low protein.

Parrots with acute liver damage would also show high monocytes as these are used for inflammation and cannot take lots of medicines (antibiotics, pain killers, anti-virals all go through the liver, antifungals been especially bad for it) so his deterioration despite all the medicines would make sense if this is what is wrong with him.

Also, liver failure kills because the body is filled up with toxins the liver can no longer get rid of... it's like slow poisoning - and they show the symptoms you talk about because their motor skills become terribly impaired due to the toxins. They become incoordinated and like whoozy-headed, often tripping, not been able to hold things with their feet, etc.

Again, I stress: I am not a vet but I have several birds with advanced liver damage, some due to bad diet, some due to disease (like chlamydiosis) and some post metal poisoning so I've gotten a bit of experience with the problem and, although a bile acids test is not cheap (prices vary but it goes for around $125-140), it is the ONLY way to accurately measure liver function.

Well ALL of the insight from EVERYONE here is extremely helpful and educational!!! I appreciate everyone's interest/ideas/thoughts!!!

This has given me alot of things to ask my vet, things that we might or should try, and changes that I need to make.

Sometimes experience is more valuable than being a Dr., or they just create several different opinions that can be very helpful.

Thank You Pajarita for your ideas and experience.
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

No Bill, no trouble at all.

And wow...you sure have some AWESOME perches there for him. Sorry, I couldn't tell via the camera, plus my eyes were glued on Toots.

Thank you.... he does like to use them all, but sleeps on the padded perch and sometimes on the perch that is just under it (you can see the end of the perch under the one he is sitting on). He has a food bowl next to the perch and his platform... that is the one that he was resting his neck on yesterday during the day.
Yes it is hard to see alot of detail... the cage bars are white and the light is coming from infra red illuminator in the cameras (the room was totally dark).
I have tried to position the cameras better, but it doesn't get better. I might try another illuminator that isn't in the camera to see if the image is better and easier to see Toots.

One thing I have noticed is that he seems to be sleeping more during the day than before... probably because he doesn't get a good rest at night OR he is getting worse.