White Front sleeping problem

[JerseyWendy]

Thank you SO much for the update, Bill!!!

You have truly gone above and beyond for the sweet Toots. I will have EVERYTHING crossed that this surgery did the trick, and that Toots will make a full and complete recovery.

 

[pomonabill221]

Thank You Gary for your thoughts.
In today's video of Toots sleeping, he still has a little problem sleeping and also still leans a little, but not anywhere NEAR what he was doing.
I just think ( and HOPE) that he improves with time.

Bill

 

[henpecked]

Yeah Bill and Toots. Keeping out fingers crossed that things will continue to improve. As far as parronts go, your #1 in my book.

 

[pomonabill221]

WOW! thank YOU for the compliment!
Yes, I am keeping my fingers crossed!

Bill

 

[Lintini]

How awesome, I had lots of anxiousness reading these 21 pages!

Yay!!!! I am so happy for you that Toots is doing much better!

 

[pomonabill221]

Well he is and he isn't doing better....
He does seem to be more "comfortable" and less "snappy" at me and loves to perch on my finger alot more.
He also seems to "limp" less and gets around better.
BUT...
From my recordings as he sleeps, he still "slouches" a little, but doesn't seem to lean or loose his balance as much or at all.. a good thing.
His "beak tucking" isn't as much as I originally though, could be that he was very tired the night after the surgery... don't really know though.

Just the fact that the piece that wouldn't go away, is gone now, IS a positive improvement.
I am hoping that his "healing" will take time as this condition has been going on since the beginning of this year, I just noticed it in March and it had already been going on.

The Dr. said that there MAY be some permanent "damage" though and that this is the way he will be... I will just have to give it time.

I really am thankful for everyone's concern and help through this... it has made a big difference!!! Thank You all!!!

If things change, I will update Toots's progress, but for now I think there has been an improvement, although not too much...

Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

Hello all!
Hoping all of you have a GREAT holiday!
Another update....
Toots is back to his old "bad" self... no improvement from the surgery.... DANG IT!!!!
I called Dr. Nemitz and told him that Toots is still lean when he sleeps and drooping his head. DN right away said "that's not good" and said maybe we should try a short course of antibiotics as there may be something that is keeping toxins in his blood.

The surgery seems to have done something as the night after (saturday night / Sunday morning) he did sleep pretty good, but Sunday/Monday he declined and the rest of the week he went back to "bad".

I was also talking to a friend who is not really a bird person, but comes up with ideas, and she said to try switching to a different food. I am going to try this...maybe Zupreen, and see.
There may be something to this as I have given him a treat of an almond for a couple of days now, and there seems to be a slight improvement although still not good sleeping, just somewhat noticeable "improvement".

I just hate to keep putting this poor bird under all the stress of Dr. visits/xrays/blood tests/surgery.... MAN this guy has been through ALOT!!!! (and it ain't cheep with no income either!).

My appt. is Tuesday 12/17, so I'll update our plan of attack and what the Dr. says... hopefully there will be an "ah ha" moment for Toots and he (and I) will have a Merry Christmas!

I just want to thank everyone here that has offered their thoughts... it makes a difference!
Thank You
Bill

 

[JerseyWendy]

Oh Bill, I am SO sorry to hear that Toots' surgery didn't bring the expected/hoped for results.

I wish the the best tomorrow for your vet visit with him. I truly want this mystery to be solved...for the both of you.

 

[pomonabill221]

Yes, I am bumed!
I (we) are running out of options and ideas!
Dr. N even said that it might be arscleriosis (sp?) (hardening of the arteries?).
We have already done a sonogram and the blood flow looked good, but I don't know if that would have shown hardening problems, just valve operation and heart operation, and the Dr. said it looked good!

I just don't know.....
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

I took Toots to my local vet and we discussed possibilities and directions that can be taken.

One thing she said is IF there is heart/hardening of the arteries, there really isn't medication that has been "approved" for birds yet.

She did confirm that Toots's left foot is a little weaker than his right although not as much weakness as before... I know that this isn't a real test though but an observation. His weight is holding very well, he is eating/drinking great! During the day he is active although still "limps/stumbles" a little.

Seeing that 1)Toots is old (I have had him for about 26 years and he was an adult when I bought him) 2) his diet for most of his life has been crappy seed (sunflower/safflower/peppers/etc.) 3) he has been on Harrison's for about 4-5 years now from Roudybush/Zupreen (which are good also)... there COULD be something in his other organs that still has toxins that are leaching out, and it just may take time for his system to eliminate them... just a guess on our part.

We came to the conclusion to give it more time, rather than jump on antibiotics right away... I agree with her and we will give it about a month and see what happens.

Of course, IF things get worse, I will JUMP on it right away and hopefully stop or reverse the regression.... I just don't know!!!

He has had antibiotics/chelation/blood tests (including iron/zinc poisoning.. negative)/xrays/sonograms (heart looked good)/and surgery.... POOR GUY!!!!

He goes to Dr. N on Saturday to get the stitches removed and I am sure the Dr. will want to talk about what to do and what Dr. McDowell (my local vet) said... they talk also so maybe by then they will have talked.

Of course, I will update as things happen.

Everyone.. have a GREAT Holiday and a SAFE New Year!
Thank You!

Bill

 

[JerseyWendy]

Thank you for the update, Bill.

I think it's a good decision not to put him back on antibiotics. With his weight steady and his appetite, you are truly doing everything in your power....and then some.

Happy Holidays to you and Toots (and the rest of the flock & family)

 

[henpecked]

Thank you for the update , Bill. Hope you have a great Christmas.

 

[pomonabill221]

Merry belated Christmas to all!

Another quick update... Toots fell this morning at about 4 a.m. while he was sleeping... dnag it!

I also have noticed that one of his toes is not trying to grip anything, but just staying straight. It also doesn't seem to move or grip when he is climbing down his cage bars, but his other foot is.
When I try and touch it, he snaps at me too, but I don't know if it hurts him or he just doesn't want me to touch his toes...

It is his left foot, the "outside" rear toe (the longer toe)... I don't know if this is a new "symptom" or not but will have to contact my vet and see what we should try or what it might be due to.

Everyone have a SAFE and Happy New Year!!!

 

[pomonabill221]

Yet another update....
Toots fell again at 4:31am on 12/27 so I called my local vet (Dr. McDowell) and have an appt. on Thursday 1/2 to take a look at his foot again.
I also called Dr. N to update them and the receptionist agreed that an xray might be a good idea to see if Toots has any breaks/fractures/etc. in his foot.

She also said something that raised an eyebrow.... she said they have never seen a White Front before and Toots is being difficult (like I didn't know that). Geee... I've only spent about 4000 so far! Sure... money is no object! (being VERY sarcastic!).

I know birds hide their discomfort and illness, but I am recording 24/7 and I see it all.
The only "guess" that Dr. N had is that Toots may have a tumor on his kidney that is pressing on the nerve for his left foot.... wish he would have tried to eliminate that BEFORE the surgery!!!!
Guess the Dr. had a nice Christmas, huh! Can you tell I am getting frustrated!?!?!

Anyway... we'll see what turns up..
Have a SAFE New Year!

Bill

 

[thekarens]

Sounds frustrating! I hope you get some answers soon.

 

[Jumpingtadpoles]

Sounds frustrating! I hope you get some answers soon.

I agree. I would be frustrated, as well.

I hope it works out. I am considering getting a white front, so I've been watching this closely. I hope it's a rare issue, and not common in the species. I read somewhere else on here about a girl that took in a bird that has a Tumor pressing on a nerve, causing the foot to curl.....

 

[henpecked]

Poor Toots, Shouldn't a x=ray have turned up the tumor? BTW i not think being a WFA has anything to do with it. IMO more likely a diet issue from earlier in life.

 

[pomonabill221]

I agree about the diet from when Toots was much younger... after all when I got him, for years he had the crappy "bird mix" diet which was the WORST a bird could eat!
Mainly sunflower/safflower/peanuts and other seeds that were worthless and HIGH in fat!
Both Toots and my (RIP) African Grey Timneh AL lived on this crap and my TAG has passed and my WFA is probably suffering the consequences from it now. It seems that Toots's problem is being elusive to both Dr. McDowell and Dr. Nemitz as all of us don't have a clue as to what is going on.
PLEASE do NOT think that what has been happening to Toots is "typical" to WFA's it is NOT and provided you get your bird from a good breeder (and not a pet shop where they don't really feed the birds correctly), and the breeder DOES feed them a good diet and not crap, yours should be fine.
Just get him/her checked by a vet as soon as you get "it"... blood test, "poop" culture, maybe even an xray (just my opinion). You want to make SURE your new baby is in good health and has been raised well.

I did take Toots to Dr. McDowell yesterday (Thursday) to see if he might have a broken/sprained/fractured foot, and she did not detect any swelling or heat, so we're still at the "I just don't know" stage. I think I will talk to Dr. N to see if an xray would show a tumor, and IF there is a tumor, where do we go from here????

Toots did fly back to his cage last night which was about a 20' flight and "up hill" and landed just fine on his cage, so it seems like his short term strength is still good.

My dad suggested that I stop recording him as it is really frustrating me and affecting my sleep/etc. plus I review his night every day (look at the recording), but I know I would still worry.

As far as a tumor.... since I caught his sleeping "problem" back in April 2013, and he was probably like this before then, could it be a tumor that has stayed the same for a year or would a tumor have gotten worse by now??

More as things change...
Hope everyone's New Year was fantastic! And still sending good thoughts to Wendy!

 

[JerseyWendy]

Thank you for the update, Bill and for the good thoughts.

I think it's entirely possible for a tumor to stay the same for a LONG time. That is IF there is a tumor. I just really wish you would get a definite answer as to what is going on with him.

The uncertainty must be so difficult to deal with - and you've been doing it for quite some time already. I also tend to agree with your dad a bit. Maybe don't record him each and every night, especially if it's depriving YOU of sleep, or if it's making you anxious.

Toots surely went for a good flight the other day! Was he huffing and puffing right afterwards, or was he fine??

HUGS to you!!

 

[pomonabill221]

Yes I agree about obsessively recording Toots now... we know there is a problem and watching him all the time doesn't serve any further "diagnosis". I will have to go through "withdrawal"! (hehe)

Maybe I will pursue the "is there a tumor" path IF I can do it inexpensively! Other than that, it's anyone's guess.

When he did fly the other night, no he wasn't huffing/puffing... he seemed to be able to do that just fine.

Glad to see you back on the forum! I hope that you are recovering well and don't hurt TOO much! Just knock off the horse riding for a while! hehe

Bill