White Front sleeping problem

[henpecked]

Congrats Bill. I hope Toots continues to improve. I also hope all those folks with rusty cages and toys take notice.

 

[Merlee]

Great story. Thanks for sharing.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Oh Bill, I am SO glad you're getting somewhere! Yes, VERY expensive, I agree, but after all this time you FINALLY have an answer.

I got all teary eyed when I read your last update, that Toots was attempting to tuck himself in.

Thanks so much for the update(s), and I honestly hope it will go uphill from now on.

 

[Pajarita]

Oh, WOW, so what I saw on the old X-Ray was metal in his gizzard after all, eh? And the other vet did not even see it (UNBELIEVABLE!)

Chelation therapy works wonders and he will overcome this but please remember that both kidneys and liver have been compromised and that he will need a special low protein diet with extra hydration (which means no pellets) as well as supplements. Let me know if I can be of further help on anything.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Bill, it's currently 11AM where you are....is Toots tucked in??????? Or am I seeing things??????

 

[SandyBee]

I am so happy for you that there seems to be a possible solution!!
It's something all bird owners should be aware of!! Please let us know how Toots is doing through all this!

 

[pomonabill221]

Bill, it's currently 11AM where you are....is Toots tucked in??????? Or am I seeing things??????

hhmmm.. I didn't get a notification that there were responses....

NOTE: If I get a phone call and have a hard time hearing, I might have to bump the cameras off so don't be alarmed....

Well you could say that at 11a.m. he was sleeping... but he was on his perch that is between the left cage wall and his "main" perch that runs front to back. By front, I mean the cage wall that is closest to birdcam_1 that has the door on it.

He was "lying down" on the perch and resting his neck on the food bowl.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Ok, then I WAS seeing things. To me he looked tucked in.

How is he doing??? And how are YOU doing???

 

[pomonabill221]

He still is sleeping about the same, but does seem to be improving in his overall activity and when he is just "resting" as his posture is a little different.

Question to all....
I was researching celation and metal poisoning and found a post that said peanut butter could possibly get the metal out because it is sticky.

1) I would think that by the time it got to his gizzard, it would in no way resemble peanut butter.

2) Good pb, like Laura Scutters that I eat (only peanuts and a little salt, no sugar, etc.) STILL has peanuts! I will ask my $$$vet to see what he thinks, but does anyone have an opinion?

I'm just trying to avoid the 2-2.5k surgery bill if I can.

I also think I have a good idea where the metal came from... his little bells. Like I said before.
I really looked them over and noticed that "brass plating" has come off in many places on each bell, and there were a few spots near edges that looked like they had flaked off and not just rubbed off, so my uneducated guess is this is what Toots injested, and maybe has gotten alot in the past, but there is still a piece in his gizzard that has poisoned him.
I just can't think of anything else that could have done it... still racking my brain trying to figure it out...

 

[pomonabill221]

Ok, then I WAS seeing things. To me he looked tucked in.

How is he doing??? And how are YOU doing???

Yes, the camera angle isn't the best when he is in that position, but it's there for when he is on his "main" perch and I raise it during the day so I can get his outside perches.

He seems to be improved ever so slightly... activity seems to have increased a little and his "naps" seem to be better... still eating good and drinking.. poops look good..
I am a little better although still rung out because I know this is far from over, but I do feel somewhat relieved because we NOW know what is going on and are treating it.... just wish things happened faster!

Thank you for asking!
Bill

 

[pomonabill221]

Oh, WOW, so what I saw on the old X-Ray was metal in his gizzard after all, eh? And the other vet did not even see it (UNBELIEVABLE!)

Chelation therapy works wonders and he will overcome this but please remember that both kidneys and liver have been compromised and that he will need a special low protein diet with extra hydration (which means no pellets) as well as supplements. Let me know if I can be of further help on anything.

Well the other vet did see the spot and I asked her about it... she didn't think it was anything but possible food. I cannot fault her for not recognizing that it was metal because she isn't a bird specialist, but she does have alot of experience with birds.
Both my vet and Dr. Nemetz talk alot and I know that DN will talk to my vet as to what he found... so my vet will have this knowledge.

When I update DN (Dr. Nemetz) I will ask him about diet change and supps., although I would have thought that he would have said something about that... I will make sure though... I am going to call Saturday and let the dr. know about the progress..

Thanks
Bill

 

[crimson]

I have been reading this thread right from the very beginning, reading your updates and other members comments & help.
I haven't checked in here in a few days, but I was so happy to hear you finally found your answer!!

Holy Crow, what a roller coaster you have been on, WOW!

keeping my fingers crossed he improves everyday, and returns to normal
I love a happy ending

 

[Pajarita]

Oh, WOW, so what I saw on the old X-Ray was metal in his gizzard after all, eh? And the other vet did not even see it (UNBELIEVABLE!)

Chelation therapy works wonders and he will overcome this but please remember that both kidneys and liver have been compromised and that he will need a special low protein diet with extra hydration (which means no pellets) as well as supplements. Let me know if I can be of further help on anything.

Well the other vet did see the spot and I asked her about it... she didn't think it was anything but possible food. I cannot fault her for not recognizing that it was metal because she isn't a bird specialist, but she does have alot of experience with birds.
Both my vet and Dr. Nemetz talk alot and I know that DN will talk to my vet as to what he found... so my vet will have this knowledge.

When I update DN (Dr. Nemetz) I will ask him about diet change and supps., although I would have thought that he would have said something about that... I will make sure though... I am going to call Saturday and let the dr. know about the progress..

Thanks
Bill

Food doesn't show white white on XRays, only metal does so the vet should have known that.

You might not get an answer about diet change and supplements from Dr. Nemetz because only holistic Avian Vets (and there aren't that many of them, unfortunately) would recommend it. Regular vets use traditional medicine (versus untraditional) and recommend pellets (they are a bit behind).

 

[MonicaMc]

I hope Toots continues to improve!

I had a cherry headed conure that came to me with health problems... partially blind, was previously attacked by a ferret, couldn't fly, had poor grip, was missing scales on his feet, his blood panels weren't normal (mostly within "normal" range, but not normal... much like Toots - a little too high, or too low), had polyuria (his droppings were never well formed, always had excess urine), and he often slept with his head forward. Just like Toots, as he slept, his head would lower further and further... and either he'd wake up and correct himself, or he'd fall over.... especially on smooth perches. Typically, he'd only fall while sleeping, although there were times that he would accidentally trip and fall then, too. I believe he also had strokes, and on top of all that, was getting cataracts.

It did seem to help to put him on the Roudybush Renal Care diet, but beyond that, nothing else I tried (supplements, medications, etc) seemed to help at all. He even underwent a Bicom Bioresonance therapy session and nothing. Each therapy session costs over $200 per treatment, and I was looking at over $1k or more total for the minimum amounts of treatments he would need. First treatment was free. My vet was also grasping at straws and trying to figure out *anything* that might help him, although it wasn't about the sleeping problem.

In the end, he ended up getting really sick, and if he wasn't sick with one thing, he was sick with another... and it was back and forth until he was sick with both... and I think in the end that finally took him. I never did get a necropsy done, because I knew he was not a healthy bird to begin with, and I didn't want to know just how badly his system was really messed up... I already felt bad enough that I couldn't give him a "normal" life the way a conure should have lived, and I miss him terribly.

 

[pomonabill221]

I hope Toots continues to improve!

I had a cherry headed conure that came to me with health problems... partially blind, was previously attacked by a ferret, couldn't fly, had poor grip, was missing scales on his feet, his blood panels weren't normal (mostly within "normal" range, but not normal... much like Toots - a little too high, or too low), had polyuria (his droppings were never well formed, always had excess urine), and he often slept with his head forward. Just like Toots, as he slept, his head would lower further and further... and either he'd wake up and correct himself, or he'd fall over.... especially on smooth perches. Typically, he'd only fall while sleeping, although there were times that he would accidentally trip and fall then, too. I believe he also had strokes, and on top of all that, was getting cataracts.

It did seem to help to put him on the Roudybush Renal Care diet, but beyond that, nothing else I tried (supplements, medications, etc) seemed to help at all. He even underwent a Bicom Bioresonance therapy session and nothing. Each therapy session costs over $200 per treatment, and I was looking at over $1k or more total for the minimum amounts of treatments he would need. First treatment was free. My vet was also grasping at straws and trying to figure out *anything* that might help him, although it wasn't about the sleeping problem.

In the end, he ended up getting really sick, and if he wasn't sick with one thing, he was sick with another... and it was back and forth until he was sick with both... and I think in the end that finally took him. I never did get a necropsy done, because I knew he was not a healthy bird to begin with, and I didn't want to know just how badly his system was really messed up... I already felt bad enough that I couldn't give him a "normal" life the way a conure should have lived, and I miss him terribly.

I feel for your loss... BUT you MUST realize that you DID do the BEST you could for him, and you tried to give him all you could to live as best as he could!!!!
I know it is hard to imagine that "I should have done more", but YOU DID!!! and I know he knows it!

Both of you had a life together, although short, and when it was time, he knew it. To try and prolong his life any longer would have been cruel for him... that is why he moved on.

He is still with you in spirit, and what memories you have are what you must celebrate... do NOT dwell on the loss!!!!

If these guys could only tell us what's wrong, it would be alot easier, but they are here to test us (I think), and educate us.... BOY what a hard class this is!!!

 

[pomonabill221]

Also, Monica, I am sure you feel this way (I think), but there has to be a point when after all the tests, meds., vet visits, more test, etc., we have to let them go so they don't suffer any more...

It is a VERY tough decision, and very hard to come to that conclusion, but we MUST think of the bird's comfort and put our "greed" and wants aside.

I was (and still am), trying my best to consider that Toots may be hurting ALOT more than I know, and that maybe letting him move on would be the best FOR HIM.

BUT, like you, and probably most here, we try EVERYTHING that we can think of to try before reaching that decision, if the bird doesn't before us.

STILL... it ain't easy and we love our "kids" soooo very much!

 

[MonicaMc]

Thanks! If I think on it too much, I still get teary eyed. He was one of the birds that I "grew up" with (even if he might have been older than me!), and even though he was more of a hands off kind of bird, we had an understanding of each other. There were times that I did wish he could tell me how he was feeling or what was up, because he was also mutilated his stomach, and I feel that at least on one of those occasions where he went after himself could have been my fault - even though I wasn't at home. I had lost something and was upset about losing it and I can't help but wonder if he somehow knew how upset I was, even though I was miles away. Although he did mutilate himself, it was not frequently, and he'd go weeks or even months between times that he did mutilate himself, and that is why I wonder.

He passed away sometime in the morning. I knew he wasn't doing well, so I took him in for blood work, but wouldn't know until the following Monday. Sunday night, I knew he wasn't going to be around much longer... so I stayed up for as long as I could to be with him. My body had actually given out and required sleep, where-in I had slept for a few hours at most. Upon waking, he was gone. It was a horrible experience not being there for him when he finally did go.



How's Toot's doing now? Any improvement? And yes, I know the feeling. It's hard deciding when it's time to let them go. I just couldn't do that with him because he really wasn't "that bad", it was only after he was sick with a bacterial infection, then fungal infection back and forth, until he had both that he had started to really decline.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Monica, if you ask Bill for his website, login and password via PM he'll give it to you and you can see Toots live. Maybe you could have a look, and see if you've ever seen anything like it other than in your gorgeous conure?

 

[pomonabill221]

Monica, first from what Dr. Nemetz told me about mutilation... this is sometimes caused from the bird having numbness due to nerves or like "pins and needles" feelings we get when your hand or foot goes to sleep. Not always but it is an affect from some other cause, so I really don't think that it had anything to do with you, or you being gone.
I have to disagree with you about not being "that bad".... birds are VERY good at hiding their illness!!! He may have been alot sicker than you think, but I cannot "argue" with your observation because I wasn't there, so just realize that he may have been sicker than you thought...
IT IS NOT YOUR FAULT THOUGH! ALL bird owners have or will go through this! It's just their nature.

You DID spend as much time with him as you could!! NEVER think that you didn't!

I am sure that he loved the time you spent with him, and he spared you the grief of seeing him go, and he knew that he had to go and picked that time to be at peace.

Also, if you had been around him, he would try his hardest to look like he was just fine... this is a bird's way of not appearing to be sick and is their survival instinct, but he knew that he didn't want to make you feel grief, and he needed to go.

I had a very long talk with the receptionist at my "regular" vet when I lost my African Grey of 20 years due to kidney failure... she was my baby and really tried to look strong to me, but I knew that she was very sick. I had many, many tests done on her, and she did them FOR ME and took them as best as she could.

She passed when I had to leave her at the vets and I wasn't there, and the vet was giving her her meds.... she was just too sick, and she passed.

I, too, am still very sad that I wasn't there when she passed, but I know that she wanted it that way.

Toots, as far as I can tell, without being too "anxious" to see improvement, is sleeping about 12-15% better, still "drooping" when sleeping, but seems to have just a little more energy during the day.
He is still eating like a pig, green beans/apples (NOT tart apples though)/baby carrots/sugar beans (I think... they are fat, short beans).

I did call DN on Saturday, and they weren't surprised that I haven't seen improvement yet as it had only been 3 1/2 days on the meds., and it could be 5-7 days before I see improvement. The vet said to call be in about 2 weeks, so that tells me that I still have some time to go.
I really do think that there has been a very slight improvement though, so we shall see!
Thank you for asking!
Bill
PS... I sent you a PM for the cameras.

NOTE TO ALL.... if I get a phone call, I will have to disconnect the camera feed because my phone uses the same DSL connection, and it affects my phone badly. When the cameras are available again, you will have to re-login.
Sorry for this.

 

[MonicaMc]

I got it, but could only manage a quick look at the webcam atm!

I do realize that birds can be a lot sicker than they appear, but at the same time they do show subtle signs, however small they are, that they aren't feeling well. It could be something as simple as not being as active, but the change is so subtle that it goes unnoticed.

Noel was not an active conure. He enjoyed chewing things up, but he didn't play. As long as he had everything he needed, he was quiet, and conures are known for being noisy. He never really was "right" from the beginning and I can only hope that I made his last years better. He was the only bird I could take outside unrestrained and unclipped and not worry about getting lost.

ATM, I only have one bird who's not up to par... she has cancer on her foot and for some reason she now has a sinus problem in one nostril. Her last blood work was fine, flushed the sinuses and it was clear... no infections present... yet, she keeps getting her right nostril clogged up. All I know is that she's got a blockage in her sinuses and it's not loosening up, even with multiple sinus flushes. I wonder if I must make the decision of quality of life for her someday soon.


Thanks for the link! I'll have to check up on Toots later when I've got a better connection! And I hope he does improve, or at least feels better!