Old vs Modern techniques...

I'm curious to hear from people (like for example Birdman666) who have been training and modifying behavior in parrots for many years... and have seen training methods evolve and change over the years.

As with everything in life - methods, schools of thought, and "better" or different ways to do things are always coming about.

In the 90's, I got my first parrot. My best friend to this day, Robin. The "training" methods I'd hear about then were a bit different than the methods you hear more today, as well as the psychology behind it all.

MORE SPECIFICALLY... NOWDAYS, "positive reinforcement" made popular by Barbara Heidenreich, behaviorist and founder of Good Bird Inc. is the widely accepted "way to go". Though Barbara has been around for quite a while, it seems more than ever in more recent times, her methods have really gained popularity for shaping your avian companion into a well behaved good friend. Her methods have been PROVEN to work. Methods based on "positive" reinforcement where the bird will do 'what you want' based on giving the bird a good, or fun, or what the bird considers a worthwhile "positive" reason to comply. Never 'punishment', which she and other advocates are strictly against.

NOW... the "other" methods I was used to hearing more of years ago (NOT by any means cruel or inhumane in my opinion) BUT nonetheless very different, are still mentioned today, by many professionals and people who have been training birds for many years. 'Laddering' step ups, the 'earthquake' or wobbling, and as Birdman says "Mr. Towel" for when you have an extra stubborn situation... When done responsibly and gently, these methods also seems to be effective, without damaging the trust or bond in your already bonded pet.

I'm very interested in knowing your personal opinions! What do YOU do?
Do you incorporate some of both? Do you only use positive methods? What have you found works best for YOU?

Oh my....this thread "may" give us mods a run for the money.

We shall wait and see how this plays out.

As for myself, I like using common sense, LOTS of TLC, and keep a wide open mind about new training/taming/behavior modification methods.

Hope I didn't stir the pot TOO much!! ooh the controversy!!... I didn't think of that. I do hope I get enough responses though.

Everyone, be diplomatic now... Wendy will be watching like a hawk!! You don't want her to ban anyone!

Smart behavorists will change their methods to adapt to the personality of the bird they are training. A dominant bird who is not afraid to go for the face for no apparent reason is worthy of Mr. Towel. The aggressive biter may respond to the wobble or earthquake technique when latched on to someone's forearm.

The timid or unhandled parrot will respond well to clicker training if the behavorist is skilled in that type of training. The food reward method will work if the bird is hungry, and if the Very Special Treat is used.

Parrots can be difficult to deal with because they are manipulative and smart. After weaning they will soon learn all kinds of behaviors that humans accidently encourage that will turn our bird buddies into monsters.

When working with my animal students there are two rules that I do not bend:

1) I do not get hurt
2) The student does not get hurt

If at any time I feel either of those two rules are at risk, I will stop and think of how to communicate with my student. Do I need to break up my request to even smaller steps? Is my student ill? Or is my student challenging my authority? What have I done wrong? What do I need to do different?

We also need to respect what our student is capable of. Not all of them are stars of the show. Doesn't mean just because Pete does not want to cuddle don't mean he can't learn a simple trick or two. Just because Big Mac can't talk doesn't mean he won't hop on a pair of birdie skates just to make you laugh. There are birds out there with extensive vocabularies who don't care a whit about having their head scratched. Yes, you can force them to tolerate your touch, but if the behavior is forced it ain't worth repeating.

When teaching a bird, the smart trainer will find what the bird is good at and build the relationship from there. Having a pet is about the relationship, not being the best talker, or the best cuddler. Having a pet is all about respecting who your pet is. And the pet must respect who are. And your job is to train your bird as best as you can. And if you falter, don't be afraid to ask for professional help. Get someone to come to your home and determine what can be done to clarifiy the relationship.

And as time goes on so does all those training fads. It is difficult to judge which is best for you. Simply remember to respect who you have as a student and be consistent in your methods. If you have success then stick with it. And keep in mind what your pet can teach you: patience, forgiveness, how to be supportive. Stick with what works for you. Your final reward will be your pet teaching you to be a better human being.

GREAT post Tessie! good points such as 'neither you nor the student gets hurt', and that the method really "depends" on the situation, the personality of the bird (aggressively manipulative, or timid and scared) and particular situation.

So far, it seems like that is the most common sense approach, and one I tend to agree with, while putting the path of least resistance as FIRST resort.

It's just that I joined a species specific forum, and that group happens to be 110% for the positive reinforcement only. Only, ONLY, ONLY, no matter what the circumstances. It has made me LESS confident as I start to question things I've learned and have read and done for years, and I am getting paranoid here lol. I figured THIS group will slap some reality my way!

No matter what your opinion... I want to hear it! Keep it coming (diplomatically)

IMO, the reason that positive reinforcement techniques are ONLY ONLY is because regular people often don't have the knowledge or experience to be applying anything else appropriately or effectively and not applying them appropriately or effectively can have serious long-lasting adverse effects.

It's a bit like recommending that all newly-licensed drivers do not get a souped-up high performance cars. There is no reason that an 18-year-old can't be driving formula one, but the lowest-common denominator is that most will have absolutely no training or experience to be able to. It's just easier and safer to talk only about hyundais and ignore ferraris altogether than it is to give information that will be used properly by somebody who is knowledgeable and capable of getting behind the wheel of that ferrari.

Strudel, I love your car analogy

However, seasoned pros like Barbara Heidenreich herself swear by the positive reinforcement ONLY techniques.
I haven't looked into what SHE would do about when Raven doesn't WANT to step up off the top of his cage when I need him to (for example when I need to leave the house, and can't wait til later), and he will attack and bite hard to tell me he does not wish to be removed at this time either with a stick or my hand. Not even with bribery for his favorite treat, not for anything.

Ive been trying to see fresh new ways, and adopt these NEWER techniques and try them, but there are just some things about it that I just can't see eye to eye with. Though parrots are 'different' to train than other animals, I have to keep thinking there is more than one way to "skin a cat"!

@ravensgryf ...have you tried showing Raven a super special favorite piece of food, and then place it in a dish inside the cage and walk away and "ignore"...maybe he will go in?

RavensGryf said:

there are just some things about it that I just can't see eye to eye with.

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I agree with that, I and I agree with what TessieB said. It's also what a guy on tv (don burke) said about dog training. You have to take into account the personality of the "student".
I think that the focus ONLY ONLY with birds is that they are very different to other animals and any adverse event can have a greater effect than with a dog who'll be over it the minute you pull out a schmacko or a cat who doesn't care what you think in the first place.

Still, I think you have to use your own judgment based on your understanding of your relationship with your bird. Nobody in internet land can judge those things, the owner is best placed to do that.

I had to defy "conventional wisdom" with my dog. Always be up-beat and happy when doing a "come" command, no growling, blah blah. If I didn't drop my voice and go all sergeant-major on her, she'd ignore me. Any commentator would tell me I was "doing it wrong", but I knew her, and that was the only way she'd stop playing and actually come. Until you demonstrated that you were serious and it really was time to go, she'd just use her own judgment and carry on with what she was doing. You could stand there all day going "come, darling, come" but one "GET OVER HERE - NOW!" and you'd be on your way home.

Use your own judgments and observations. As long as you have done the research sufficiently to be comfortable that you aren't messing things up, carry on.

EDIT: and people like Barbara Heidenreich are teaching training methods and will have liability for adverse consequences if they don't take a particular line. In private, she may use other techniques, when and only when, it is warranted. She still won't recommend that to her students, because they won't know as well as she will, when it absolutely is warranted and when it is not.

Shirre, Raven is an extra hard one because he ISN'T very food motivated. He's not super praise motivated either. At first he was, but now he's jaded haha. Even his extra special FAVORITE Scenic pellets that he get only as a good boy treat, if he REALLY wants to keep doing what he's doing, he will ignore it. Raven's super smart and I know he "gets" what I tell him - I always ask him if he wants to go or do whatever, and use my hands to show him, or tell him what I'd like him to do, and point to where I'm suggesting he needs to go. Whether he's in the mood is a different story. If it's not urgent I'll leave him be. If I need him to do something, that's what I'm taking about. With treat or praise or attention bribes, he just stares at me with a look that says "you're such an idiot, you think I'm naiive don't you" LOL. He's a brat.

Robin, and another Pi, and even larger birds I've had, once they know "step up" they were not THIS stubborn. Raven is something else.

How about curiosity? I'm still getting to know my galah and birds in general. She doesn't seem to be interested in what I want or think, she seems very "self-contained". But when I have or am doing something, I get the "hello! hello! hello!" so I think curiosity will be useful as motivation for her. Might be be interested in some sort of puzzle toy or foraging toy or something that needs investigation?

Really, the only time I have a problem with Raven is when he is ON TOP of his tall dometop cage, and he doesn't want to come down for anything. LUCKILY, he usually never stays up there very often, but it seems more and more nowdays he is going up there.

During other times, Raven's positive bribes that work are his favorite toys on the playstand, and vegetable dish in the morning (wherever I put it) he will be anxious to come out to get to it! He is definitely more of a morning person. I noticed he gets grumpier during the later part of the day, and by the evening he will usually want to be left alone to play in his cage. Opposite of Robin my night owl!

Edit: July 2014 - he is now complying almost all of the time. We've moved also, don't know if the different environment also has something to do with it.

strudel said:

people like Barbara Heidenreich are teaching training methods and will have liability for adverse consequences if they don't take a particular line. In private, she may use other techniques, when and only when, it is warranted. She still won't recommend that to her students, because they won't know as well as she will, when it absolutely is warranted and when it is not.

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Ha, it would be funny if she does! :11:

strudel said:

How about curiosity? QUOTE]

Raven is not AS highly curious as some parrots or some species. He is very alert and will turn an eyeball to things, but as far as coming to investigate it, no he is not nearly as curious as some parrots are. Typically, things have to be pretty close to him for him to investigate it. Like a new toy on his playstand.

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strudel said:

Use your own judgments and observations. As long as you have done the research sufficiently to be comfortable that you aren't messing things up, carry on.

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Thank you. I guess I just needed to hear that from others. I started losing confidence there for a bit after getting sort of brainwashed by my other group who are staunch 110% supporters of the 'newer' ways.

IMO, you cannot apply any rule inflexibly when you are dealing with living things and their relationships. There will always be personalities, circumstances etc that need some lateral thinking or adaptation of "conventional wisdom".

Also, there's the "internet expert" phenomenon. Everything is the way they see it and everybody of another opinion is just WRONG! Doubly WRONG with a dose of abuse on top.

I use a variety of techniques to gain compliance. As others have said, each bird has its own personality which require different methods. One thing I do use is routine. My Sennie would always give me trouble about returning to his cage. Most of the birds come out at the same time, are out for the same length of time and go back into their cages at the same time for a special "back in the cage treat ". My Sennie responds very well to this. However, my Barrabands are not treat motivated, usually just a " back in your cage" command is enough and they will go back in, based on what I believe is routine...same time, same time out and same time in and also based on negative reinforcement. Every now and again, one of them wants to stay out longer, that's when I bring out "Mr. Feather Duster". It is quite colourful and I twirl it in the air and say "back in the cage" and he will go back in the cage. Negative reinforcement...they hate the feather duster, but I will give praise for going going back in and stroke their beak for doing so. It is quite comical to hear them giving each other praise..."good boy Joey" "good boy peewee". They are so smart!

I don't let the birds play on top of their cages. I have hanging boings and plenty of java trees that I tend to be more in control of getting them on and off of. If Jolly isn't taken from his cage right out to a stand I end up playing "chase the birdie" from one cage top to the next and he is fast and my arms are short.

As for as handling I look at how different I had to approach Gomez and Lola. Gomez didn't want to bite me, he was just so afraid so with him it was short positive sessions. He would shake and lean forward to go back in the direction of his cage but I would talk to him softly. While I knew he was stressed I needed him to understand that the time with me would be short but enjoyable and that nothing bad would happen. I did this many times a day. At first he didn't know what step up was so I would literally have to grab each foot with both hands and take him out. Now he steps up every time and really enjoys spending time with me. No shaking or wanting to go back to his cage.

Lola whole different situation, because I saw that she could be sweet with the decorator lady before I brought her home and she was okay with my husband very quickly. I knew she saw me as the person who took her away from the lady she loved (even if the woman didn't care for them correctly there was a bond with her and Lola anyway). She bit me hard and deep coming out of the carrier that first day. Now it's all well and good to tell someone not to respond but when a bird makes me bleed there is going to be a few curse words that fly out. She knew she got me good, I have no delusions when it comes to how smart parrots really are! So her and I were in a test of wills from that first day. She really wanted to back me off, intimidate and scare me. I knew if I let her be, she would think she won. So day after day I took the bites until one day she stopped biting. Am I her favorite person? Nope. However she knows the jig is up and I called her bluff she also knows hey that lady gives me yummy food, talks so sweet to me even when I am a stinker...maybe she isn't so bad after all. So now she will step up, let me pet her and tries to give me kisses, I don't trust her near my face just yet. So for me how I approach the bird is based largely on the bird.

labell said:

I don't let the birds play on top of their cages. I have hanging boings and plenty of java trees that I tend to be more in control of getting them on and off of. If Jolly isn't taken from his cage right out to a stand I end up playing "chase the birdie" from one cage top to the next and he is fast and my arms are short.

As for as handling I look at how different I had to approach Gomez and Lola. Gomez didn't want to bite me, he was just so afraid so with him it was short positive sessions. He would shake and lean forward to go back in the direction of his cage but I would talk to him softly. While I knew he was stressed I needed him to understand that the time with me would be short but enjoyable and that nothing bad would happen. I did this many times a day. At first he didn't know what step up was so I would literally have to grab each foot with both hands and take him out. Now he steps up every time and really enjoys spending time with me. No shaking or wanting to go back to his cage.

Lola whole different situation, because I saw that she could be sweet with the decorator lady before I brought her home and she was okay with my husband very quickly. I knew she saw me as the person who took her away from the lady she loved (even if the woman didn't care for them correctly there was a bond with her and Lola anyway). She bit me hard and deep coming out of the carrier that first day. Now it's all well and good to tell someone not to respond but when a bird makes me bleed there is going to be a few curse words that fly out. She knew she got me good, I have no delusions when it comes to how smart parrots really are! So her and I were in a test of wills from that first day. She really wanted to back me off, intimidate and scare me. I knew if I let her be, she would think she won. So day after day I took the bites until one day she stopped biting. Am I her favorite person? Nope. However she knows the jig is up and I called her bluff she also knows hey that lady gives me yummy food, talks so sweet to me even when I am a stinker...maybe she isn't so bad after all. So now she will step up, let me pet her and tries to give me kisses, I don't trust her near my face just yet. So for me how I approach the bird is based largely on the bird.

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Exactly!! Spot on post.

I HATE how almost ALL cages are built too tall for people under 7'!
I can see that they construct larger cages to be tall so that the parrot is comfortable high up enough inside, but it sure does present these problems.
I did have a set up in a house with hanging swings, boings, into the ceiling, but I'm in an apartment now and couldn't do it. We're moving again to a house this summer, so will drill holes and have a nicer set up once again.

Thank you everyone who responded so far. Everyone pretty much said the same thing, and I agree with you!!

I will just keep on doing what I feel is best for Raven's particular personality and situation.
I will keep it to myself from my "other" group so as to not get jumped on with "Ohhh Noooo! Never ever, ever..... or ALWAYS do.... Thank you all for "reminding" me of what makes sense lol. I do believe in keeping an open mind to new techniques, but I will also be sticking with the tried and true. As only we know our parrots best.

Sally would still be festering in her cage and unhandle-able if I let her do what she wanted, and waited for her to be ready...

As long as the bird wasn't a plucker, I personally, would use a towel. We can do this the easy way, or we can do this the hard way. But we are going to do this. And if you try to bite me, you will end up on the floor every time.

It's up to you bird. You gonna step up nice? (Once they do, enhance the experience with treats, praise or other forms of interaction SO THAT THEY FIND IT A POSITIVE EXPERIENCE AND WANT TO DO IT AGAIN.)

After that, the choice is given between towel or finger. They will reluctantly choose finger. Then, after a week or two, no need to choose. We're just stepping up. Nothing bad is gonna happen. It's attention time! In fact, I've been waiting all day for this...

That's how I've done it with reluctant/stubborn/biters...

And I pretty much worked with primarily the biters.

You are still using POSITIVE REINFORCEMENT.

What people forget is that you DO NOT reinforce the bad stuff. i.e. IF STUBBORN BIRDY IS ALLOWED TO GET HIS WAY, YOU HAVE JUST TAUGHT STUBBORN BIRDY TO BE MORE STUBBORN THAN HE ALREADY IS. STUBBORN BIRDY NEEDS TO LEARN THAT "BIG BIRD" IS MORE STUBBORN THAN HE IS. THEN, you make sure that the interaction with the bird is as positive as possible.

Birds in the wild don't sit around taking it, when another bird does something it doesn't like. It is handled on the spot. There is a confrontation. One bird backs down, the other ends up calling the shots. When YOU are the one backing down, guess who thinks he is calling the shots?! THIS IS MOST ESPECIALLY TRUE WITH LARGE MACAWS - ESPECIALLY DOMINANT ONES!!! You simply CANNOT let a dominant macaw be the dominant bird in a pair bond situation... The sooner you put a stop to it, the less blood gets spilled. And a simple towel technique prevents ANY blood from being spilled.

Does that make sense?!