Birdman, I've always gotten the impression from you that if a bird doesn't come out/off their cage on the first day, it never will. I don't agree with this. Jayde, my newest girl, came to me unhandable and hadn't been handled in 6+ months. She is a young bird, and I can't say that she was abused, but I never forced her off her cage or away from it. I allowed her to choose when to come off her cage which still worked!
I got her June 6th of last year. Within days, without using any force or coercion, she was on my shoulder by her choice. Now? She'd rather be on me than on her cage! At first, her cage was her "baby blanket" and there were times she would start to freak out and make worried noises. Any time she started to feel uncomfortable, I *always* took her back to her cage. At first, she'd stay a while and didn't want back up on me, but that was ok. As time progressed, she got to the point that she just wanted to touch her cage and that was enough for her. She no longer makes those worried noises any more when she's with me. Actually, the last time she made the noise was while she was *ON* her cage and she wanted to be on me instead!
I don't think one has to wait years for a bird to be ready to interact, although I do believe that it helps to allow the bird to settle in and get comfortable within the environment before training starts. Not only does the bird need to get used to the environment, but you as well. Depending on the bird, this could be a few days or weeks. I also believe it depends on how often you try to work with the bird.
Lara Joseph also has a bird that was so far gone that he was going to be euthanized. Rocky was a screamer, showed high levels of aggression, and when down on the floor he would attack feet. Lara didn't have to use force, didn't have to use a towel, and most certainly did not need to use a pillow to back him up into a corner to get him to stop chasing after her.
Here's her blog where she talks about some of that, as well as a quote from it.
Behavior Trained Through Consistency?A Win/Win Outcome for All | Lara Joseph
Lara Joseph; Avian Behavior, Training, & Enrichment Facebook page a photo of Rocky, my almost 13 year old moluccan cockatoo on my shoulder. What is the big deal about this photo? The fact that Rocky is on my shoulder. Rocky is a re-home that came into my life almost five years ago. He came to me from a shelter with a plethora of behavior issues and was highly suggested to me that he be euthanized for his level and intensity of behavior issues. Five years ago when I began interacting with him I was not able to get him out of his cage without a bite or obvious signs of aggression. Through consistent training and use of applied behavior analysis and positive reinforcement training over the past five years, Rocky is many things including one of the most well-behaved birds in my house and has just, for the first time ever, perched on my shoulder.
Please don't misread that as in it took 5 years to train him! It took 5 years before Lara trusted him on her shoulder!
I don't think working with wild life that will be released is quite the same as working with captive parrots. Yes, you *DO* want wild animals to remain afraid of humans, but you don't want parrots to remain afraid! I don't see why one would have to be unnecessarily cruel to wild life though. I can understand having to towel them, anesthetize and all those other things that go along with making sure that the birds are healthy enough to return to the wild, but I don't see why you'd have to be unnecessarily cruel about it all.
Which actually brings up an interesting thought. What about falconry? The practice of capturing a juvenile BOP, training the bird, then later releasing the bird? These animals are not afraid of humans once they are taught. They were born wild, so it's not like they were ok at first with being handled. It's actually believed that through the use of falconry, the amount of BOP's have gone up in the wild simply by ensuring the survival of the younger birds. From what I've read, BOP's have a high mortality rate within their first year of life.
I don't agree with your choice of giving birds an ultimatum. (re: towel vs hand) That's not the same as giving the bird the choice to participate or not.
Although my birds are not trained for this, birds can be taught force-free grooming. Even aviary birds that are hands off can be taught this! A parrot can be taught to enjoy being towels without the use of force or fright. A parrot can be taught to lift and hold their wing to get their wings clipped. A bird can be taught to accept getting their beak dremeled without the use of restraint. A bird could even be taught to life their feet to get their nails done, or a bird in a cage can be taught to allow grooming of the nails through the cage bars.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Ue_gi5yS4I"]Parrot Training & Taming: Greenwing Macaw has Beak Groomed with Dremel - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe0pW5v7vOs"]Parrot Training Clips from Parrot Care & Training Seminar - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67Aaes3H08k"]Parrot Training Tips - Nail Trimming - YouTube[/ame]
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qS6X4p8gmqA"]Parrots trained for medical behaviors - YouTube[/ame]
I think it's amazing what can be taught through the use of positive reinforcement training! That last video shows an amazon being trained to accept nail grooming through the cage wires.
Since parrots aren't dominant creatures, I don't know what aggressive dominant behaviors you are talking about.
Jen, why wouldn't you train a cockatiel or conure the same way you might train a macaw or a cockatoo? Why does size matter? Why is it ok to ignore the bite of a smaller bird but not a larger one? Are you implying that larger parrots deserve more respect because they have a bigger beak? Because they can do more damage? Do you not think that the smaller birds can have the same thoughts and feelings as the larger birds? And should receive the same amount of respect as the larger birds?
There is no proof of dominance in wild parrots. Just because a bird wins one fight doesn't mean they'll win the next. The 'look-out' bird that watches over the flock while the rest are eating? Another bird will come up and replace that bird, giving the 'look-out' bird a rest.
Here's a quote from Susan Friedman's article -
The Struggle for Dominance
Strangely, this interpretation of the dominance construct persists in spite of the lack of corroborating evidence from ornithologists, field biologists and wild bird behaviorists who are studying wild parrots. Apparently, in their natural habitat there are no alpha parrots or straight-line hierarchies. Contention between parrots appears to be relatively uncommon and brief with unpredictable outcomes that change with the wind. Life in the wild is simply not as neat as we in the companion world would have it.
Or
Steve Martin FAQ's from his website mentions this....
There is much talk these days about dominance and dominance hierarchies in captive parrots. To fully understand captive bird behavior people should begin with an understanding of wild bird behavior. Through personal observations, discussions with many parrot field researchers (personal communications: Brice, February, 1994, Munn, July 1998, Gilardi, February, 1999, English, November, 2000, May, May 15, 2001) and review of literature, we have found no evidence of flock hierarchies in wild parrots. The field researchers all attest to aggression and disputes among parrots.
However, the aggressors are not consistent from one incident to another. A bird that loses a confrontation with one bird may just as well win a confrontation with the same bird later. It could be said that the winners of these confrontations are dominant over the losers. However, the dominant position is limited to each specific incident and does not carry over to future encounters. There is no evidence of social hierarchies in flocks of wild parrots that resemble social hierarchies commonly found in many mammal species. If dominance hierarchies exist in wild parrots they are most likely limited to family groups.
And I think you misunderstand the use of positive reinforcement. Positive reinforcement doesn't mean you "ignore" the bird when it bites you, then reward the bird when it doesn't bite you.
With positive reinforcement, you try not to put the bird in a position that will result in a bite, thus avoiding the bite and teaching the bird that he or she has no reason to bite in the first place. I would never suggest for a person to "ignore the bite", regardless of the size of the bird!
Though some may not agree, I think that with a dominant bird who wants nothing more than to bite that target stick to splinters is going to take WAY more time to learn each broken down step (which is not what they do in the wild anyway), and while ignoring and not ADDRESSING dominant bad behavior in SOME way or another, well, I don't personally think that is nipping the problem in the bud in the MOST effective manner necessarily. 100% PR will work beautifully for some birds, though bringing this human based psychology to EVERY bird will leave some loopholes...
What makes a bird "dominant" when it bites a stick? A bird could be biting a stick because of fear or perhaps it doesn't like the stick.
A good way to target train a bird that bites the target is to train the bird to reach for the target, but not to bite it. Watch this video of Barbara target training a macaw. If you pay close attention, you can see that Barbara is rewarding the B&G for reaching for the target, but not necessarily touching it.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4DjiRJu5gQ"]Part 1 - Target Training B&G Macaw with Barbara Heidenreich at Rodies Feed & Pet Supply - YouTube[/ame]
What behaviors are you thinking of?
A thread such as this can easily get out of hand, especially when folks are dead set in their ways.
