Old vs Modern techniques...

[Dinosrawr]

This thread is awesome. I love the info. Thanks for the thread! I'm just going to chime in that I'm also along the lines of there being no clear cut way to train every bird.

For example... my brother and I grew up together, received the same punishments, were in the same environment, and were rewarded the same (ALWAYS - my mother never deviated with us until she better learned our personalities). What worked on me as a child NEVER worked on my brother, and my parents never had to go to the extreme with me like they him. I don't think this is any different for any other animal... what motivates or encourages one may not be what it takes for another.

You never want to force any animal to do something, or make it feel helpless, or corner it because it doesn't feel good for anyone involved. But, as parrot and parront, we both want love and respect as the individuals we are. Sometimes we have to go about it in different ways or we have to go to extremes (especially with ANY animal with a "damaged" psyche). Sometimes we only stick to one way because that's what we believe us what's best - the same goes for anyone who loves anything. But that doesn't mean that we all have to do it the same so long as there's mutual respect, love, and genuine care going in

EDIT: my emphasis on "any animal" is me implying that any animal - human, bird, horse, dog - is potentially subject to "extreme" forms of intervention for the benefit of the animal.

 

[MikeyTN]

Wow, this thread just keeps going....I only read parts before but I read the whole thing tonight....

I've seen birds even with the cage door wide open but would never once step out on it's own, they stay as far away from the door as possible as they feel more secure within their cage thus being cage potatoes. My best friend's Senegal for example, he got him when he was a baby and his parents kept him all his life for 30 something years until he passed. They sit by him and talk to him, whistle, fed him goodies all his life. But he will not come out for nothing. I ended up having to towel him to get him out. He's not the first I've seen that's done that as none of these birds I've seen were abused in any sort of way, they were happy birds but they just don't want to come out of the cage. Even Riley, my heavy pied Cockatiel will not come out. Once I forced him out, I had no problem with him as he would sit on my shoulders and sing and carrying on.

There's different ways of training and each individual have their own ways of training so it doesn't matter what you think is right or wrong, as long as the bird isn't being abused and such like Birdman mentioned, I don't see a problem. There's absolutely no need to argue over it to proof yourself to be right. A lot of us HAVE trained for YEARS and done rescue for YEARS, not days or months or just a few years. And we have gone through plenty of them, not just a few. And some of us are dealing with the bigger parrots, some things they do are not to be ignored like you can with smaller birds that's actually easier to train then the bigger birds. I've had them all so I can tell you that much.

So hence STOP the bickering! Sometimes I'm just too tired to try to argue with it and shut of my computer and walk away. So please no more bickering! Wendy have already said it once to everyone! BE NICE FOLKS! Or next this would be the end of this thread!

Thanks for reading!!!! Have a nice no bickering day!!!

 

[Anansi]

I'm actually seeing this thread more along the lines of Chantal (Dinosrawr): awesome! I've been quite impressed with those debating in this thread, and the civility maintained despite the liveliness and passion of the stated points. This is especially true of Monica and Mark, whose viewpoints share some common ground, but diverge quite dramatically in other instances.

Debates like this are very helpful to the newbie and expert alike, because in life we should never stop learning, nor should we ever close ourselves off from the viewpoints of others or the possibility of change. For example, I tend to have a largely positive reinforcement type approach, yet, unlike Monica, I do believe there are instances where a more modified approach might be needed. (Like Mark's example of the macaw kept in the storage unit for 32 years.) But, though I differ with her in that respect, I find ENORMOUS value in her typically thorough posts. Her belief in positive reinforcement as the only method pushes her to find as many ways and means to bring a bird around as possible within the sphere of that methodology. Which, in turn, gives me more tools within the realm of positive reinforcement to try before being forced to resort to any other means.

Conversely, reading Mark's viewpoints, or Richard's, gives me tools I might use in a scenario where the preferred approach does not seem to be working with a particular bird.

So I really am finding much of value in this thread, and I'm looking forward to hearing the takes of more and more members on this topic. Thus far, everyone seems to have heeded Wendy's gentle reminders to maintain a respectful tone, and now Michael's as well. As long as the thread continues this way, I will be tuning in with great interest.

And Julie? Hats off to you for yet another great topic.

 

[RavensGryf]

Thank you Stephen Good post with good points you have there. I'm enjoying this thread too, and also impressed at the civility of everyone. It really had become an interesting read hasn't it?!

 

[Anansi]

Absolutely, Julie! This thread will definitely be going into my bookmarks folder.

 

[Birdman666]

I didn't see it as bickering. If someone asks me what I do, and why I do it I will tell them.

Intelligent minds can do things differently, and can agree to disagree.

A significant number of behavior mods I learned when I volunteered down at the rescue. This is what we generally do for these types of problems. (Because you see the same things over, and over again.)

Every once in awhile they don't work, and you have to get creative, to see if the little birdbrain will respond to some other method. But a good 90% of the time, the screaming, biting and taming protocols, worked without a hitch.

Pluckers are hard. Pluckers are a case by case basis. And sometimes you try everything, and it still doesn't work.

But you have to try.

And one thing I have noticed over the years, especially with my flock...

I am not the only one training these birds in my household. The birds themselves have an established "flock ettiquite." And birds that come into this house are expected (by the other birds) to learn and follow the rules.
If they don't, the birds themselves will turn on the "offending" bird violating boundaries...

In the wild, crossing boundaries could get you and your flock mates killed. It simply isn't something they tolerate. So, when the birds establish the routine for you, it's much, much easier, and probably explains to a certain extent, why birds that were acting up elsewhere, did not act up in my house...

Those boundaries are set, and reinforced by "everyone."

Birds definitely learn from other birds. Shy birds can sit and watch another bird being trained without you even having to work with them. "Just pretend I'm not here." Focus on the other bird. Until the shy bird wants some to.

Sometimes, ignoring a bird for a day or two is more effective than working with it.

 

[Birdman666]

Birdman, I've always gotten the impression from you that if a bird doesn't come out/off their cage on the first day, it never will. I don't agree with this. Jayde, my newest girl, came to me unhandable and hadn't been handled in 6+ months. She is a young bird, and I can't say that she was abused, but I never forced her off her cage or away from it. I allowed her to choose when to come off her cage which still worked!

I have no idea where you got that impression from, but that's not correct, and certainly not a position I have taken.

With Sallybird, she festered unhandled, cagebound, for two years. Then she went another 8 months down at the rescue where all attempts at handling her failed, and resulted in attempts to maim... and these were experienced bird people here.

There were only two people who could get anywhere near her. I was one of those two people. So I was asked to take her. So, for close to 3 years, this bird had not been handled, and she was so out of control, that she had inflicted severe de-gloving injuries to two people. She was phobic, had panic attacks, and was determined to stay in her cage, and defend it to the death.

THAT BIRD COULD NOT BE HANDLED EXCEPT WRAPPED UP IN A TOWEL FOR THE FIRST TWO WEEKS. She was that dangerous! (First 2-3 weeks) After that, I got her to the point where she would at least perch on the door of her cage. Again, step up, or it's Mr. Towel. She started stepping up after 2-3 weeks, but it was a battle. After about 6 weeks, she would step up, roll on her back, fly to me on command, and allow touching all over, and was curling up onto a ball using my cheek for a pillow at night.

After 8 weeks she would go to anyone, and was completely out and about trained. She's been a shoulder bird for going on 12 years now, and has never bitten anyone since I got her...

From a bird that was so far gone she was going to be put to sleep if I didn't take her!

So, yeah, that was extreme training, for an extreme bird. Sometimes it's necessary, and that's what it takes. That's what I was saying.

But her former owner messed her up so badly, that's what it took.

 

[Birdman666]

What you may have not understood, is my philosophy on birds, is the longer you let them sit, the less inclined they are to cooperate.

I start handling them right away, because I find they respond more readily in a new home, where they have to learn the ropes.

That window of opportunity is short. If they are allowed to remain set in their ways, in a new place, it is more difficult than, new place, new rules. It's hard bird, but you have to learn to adjust to it...

So, I make boundary setting part of the settling in/adjusting period. And I find they adjust faster if you do it right away. So, there's going to be a settling in process and period ANYWAY... start your behavior mods sooner, rather than later. It's a pro-active approach.

Generally, you don't need to towel a bird. I've only had to do that a hand full of times where I've probably worked with around 350 birds...

So, it's never a first resort.

And with the hardy species, especially macaws and amazons, they don't have any lasting psychological scars from it.

Pluckers I don't mess with until I have some idea of what's going on with them. You don't want to trigger psychological issues. You want to find the trigger, and defuse it through behavior mods, if possible.

 

[Birdman666]

I think the oldest bird I ever worked with, was a cage bound DYH amazon.

He hadn't been out of his cage or handled in about 20 years. He was NOT tame. I didn't have to towel him. I did have to stick handle him at first, and I did need the towel on my arm at first.

He was never touchie feelie, but he would step up and go down without biting once we modified his behavior, which was really all I cared about. No touching, EVER!

 

[TessieB]

I think the oldest bird I ever worked with, was a cage bound DYH amazon.

He hadn't been out of his cage or handled in about 20 years. He was NOT tame. I didn't have to towel him. I did have to stick handle him at first, and I did need the towel on my arm at first.

He was never touchie feelie, but he would step up and go down without biting once we modified his behavior, which was really all I cared about. No touching, EVER!

This is an excellent point to make. We must respect who we are dealing with when working with any animal. Why touch a bird when he does not like it? Yeah you can force the issue but why? Teach what you can and respect the individual for who he is. Sometimes teaching the human is the most difficult part of the behavior equation. The human wants a lovey-dovey companion while the bird is thinking of how to be the boss of the relationship. Then one must teach the human how to be the boss of the relationship, and doing so is the most difficult part of rehabbing.

Basic obedience is always the way to go. Having a bird perch on command and step off on command without biting is okay in my book. You may not get the bird to love you but you must have the respect. My Amazons are not perfect but if they want to get uppity with me all I have to do is look at the towel. Oh, boy those flared tails and pinning pupils stop. Somebody somewhere taught the basics to these two and is truly appreciated by me. Kinda reminds me of when my Dad would touch his belt buckle-us kids knew to sit down and shut up.

 

[Birdman666]

This is an excellent point to make. We must respect who we are dealing with when working with any animal. Why touch a bird when he does not like it? Yeah you can force the issue but why? Teach what you can and respect the individual for who he is. Sometimes teaching the human is the most difficult part of the behavior equation. The human wants a lovey-dovey companion while the bird is thinking of how to be the boss of the relationship. Then one must teach the human how to be the boss of the relationship, and doing so is the most difficult part of rehabbing.

Basic obedience is always the way to go. Having a bird perch on command and step off on command without biting is okay in my book. You may not get the bird to love you but you must have the respect. My Amazons are not perfect but if they want to get uppity with me all I have to do is look at the towel. Oh, boy those flared tails and pinning pupils stop. Somebody somewhere taught the basics to these two and is truly appreciated by me. Kinda reminds me of when my Dad would touch his belt buckle-us kids knew to sit down and shut up.

Well, I have touching behavior mods. And most "hand shy" birds, once you get them past that point, absolutely love it, and it enhances their lives...

A handful of birds, (my 41 year old wild caught lilac crowned amazon for example) it only stresses them out, and they have no interest in that sort of a touchie-feelie human relationship. (His touchie-feelie relationship is with my CAG. So he has a buddy bird, and he isn't living without. His pin feathers get opened. He gets loved on.)

For me, it's about what the bird responds to.

So, that's why you do those behavior mods. And 90% of the time or more, they respond to them. And the enhanced interaction, enhances their lives.

Lila is a wild bird, that got forced into a captive world at a young age. After all these years, she still has a lot of wild behaviors... those don't re-pattern well. She's tame in every other respect. Why stress her? And that, to me, is the difference. If it isn't enhancing their lives. (As if I don't have enough lap birds as it is!)

Like 3 of my birds LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, LOVE going out and about, and would be velcro-ed 24-7 if they could.

My other two love going out into the tree in the yard, but taken outside their comfort zone, they become nervous, and act scared to death. If they are terrified, it isn't enhancing their lives.

The velcro birds get the out and about training. The nervous birds stay home.

 

[Birdman666]

Then again, Sally USED to be a nervous, wouldn't even come out of her cage bird...

Now she is one of my most go everywhere, greet everyone birds.

You never know what you are going to get until you do the behavior mods, and they respond to them, or they don't...

With some you are opening a can of worms. With others, you are opening them up to the world...

Figuring out which one you are dealing with is part of the challenge of bird training. Do I just need to try a different behavior mod? Or is this bird just not interested in much human/bird interaction and contact period! Feed me, groom me, clean my cage, talk to me, but no touching...

I think about 350 opened up, and 3-5 didn't.

So, chances are, they will. It's in their social nature to want to. It's just that you are over-riding their natural instinct for survival.

A bird in the wild would never let a human get close enough to touch, much less stepping up, much less lowering their guard, and their head for a scratch...

THE BIRD IS LITERALLY TRUSTING YOU WITH ITS LIFE BY DOING THIS!!!

Who was the last person you quite literally trusted with your life?! When you look at it from that perspective, and approach the problem from that perspective, you begin to understand what you are asking of them.

Then consider their wild species instincts and flock traits, i.e. pair bond vs. flock bird, vs. solitary feeder bird. Dominance issues. Hormonal issues. Throw in mating quirks. Then throw in individual bird quirks.

As a general rule:

Confident birds tend to be less bite-ey.

Shy birds will tend to back away and then use their beaks to communicate when forced to interact. (Shy birds can be the worst Biters)

Show-ey birds tend to want the most interaction, but also tend to be on the short tempered and tantrum prone side...

Cuddle bugs also act like jilted lovers sometimes...

 

[Birdman666]

My biggest failure appeared at first, to be my greatest success.

The rescue was not too far from my vet. When Pecker was in the hospital and near death, I hung out there, waiting for the call because it was closer than my house.

When she died, I didn't go directly home. I was crying, and an emotional wreck. And this complete basket case of a plucking too, in the back room because he was so stressed out he couldn't even be around birds or people, for some reason decided to climb into the crook of my elbow and do his best to console me...

This bird was plucked down to his very last head feather. NOTHING below the neck, and he had kept on going, and had about six open sores...

When the lady that ran the place walked in, and saw that, she FREAKED!

The bird was so neurotic he had never even allowed anyone to pick it up before!!! YOU MUST TAKE THIS BIRD... PUH-LEEZE!

And that is how we got Casper, our little neurotic OCD plucker.

I tried behavior mods that involved distracting the bird from plucking. Surrounded it with preening toys... And actually sat on my lap with that bird, and other birds, and "taught" the bird to pick at something other than himself.

Six weeks later, he had down again, and was re-growing wing feathers.

At the time of his death, he had re-grown a tail.

Problem is, he didn't just preen the toys he OCD'd so much with the preening toys, that he ingested enough to cause an intestinal blockage.

So the cure was even worse than the disease.

And that one was on me...

So, plucking is hard. Even when they respond.

He probably would have died from all the skin ulcers anyway... and at least with us, for about six months, he was happy, and actually had human interaction. (In fact, I was the one who put the medicine on his ulcers, which probably hurt. He went running to my daughter when I was done, and became "her little shadow.")

Like Pecker, at least for a brief period we gave them a quality of life, and they knew love.

 

[Anansi]

Wow. I'm sorry things turned out that way with Casper. But you're right. That six months of happiness counts for a lot. Must've been pretty rough on you, though. Thanks for sharing.

I'm curious. What behavior mods do you use with plucking? I mean, I know there are preening toys and such, but what is it that you do to encourage the preening of the toy over his/her feathers? God-willing I'll never have need of this info, bet better to know and not need than need and not know, right?

 

[Birdman666]

Well, with Casper my daughter and I would play with him on our lap with the toy. Every time he went to pick at himself, we did the same two finger routine we did with the biters, and we gave him the preening toy instead.

I actually used my conures with the preening toys and him (all my other bird were way bigger than him.) They kinda "showed him the ropes" on how to play with toys, because this bird didn't have a single clue. He just sat there looking at it.

So we had to teach him to play with them, and at the same time, prevent him from picking at himself. Eventually, and I forget how many weeks it took, the lightbulb went on. He obsessed over the preening toy, and not his own feathers. The big thing was watching him closely and pushing his beak away consistently.

We eventually got the wounds to close and scab up. And he eventually at least had down, although I doubt he would have ever had much more than that again. He was a grocery store chicken from the head down. I mean bald and pink!

One of the toys I gave him was actually a homemade toy, made from some old molted feathers, and that had preening rope all the way around it, hung from a plastic chain with a quick connect link. EASY to make. Cost around $2.00 (MAYBE). I made 4-5 of those.

 

[Anansi]

Makes sense now that you mention using a similar technique as what you would use for biters. You're not so much stopping the impulse as redirecting it. Nice! Thanks.

 

[MonicaMc]

That's one thing that Birdman and I can kind of agree on..... rewarding the bird for *desired* behavior and distracting them from *undesired* behavior.... be it plucking, biting, screaming or what have you!



Even if you don't have a bird with behavioral problems, you can still use that technique to train a bird to play with toys that doesn't know how to play with toys. You can reward behavior as small as looking at a toy, moving towards a toy and maybe even touching a toy but not necessarily playing with a toy. If you can at least get a bird to move towards the toy and to touch it, you can then shape the behavior of playing with the toy.

 

[Birdman666]

That's one thing that Birdman and I can kind of agree on..... rewarding the bird for *desired* behavior and distracting them from *undesired* behavior.... be it plucking, biting, screaming or what have you!

That is ALWAYS the starting point.

The rest depends on the bird... the behaviors... what he responds to... how out of control he is... and whether or not the bird is actually dangerous.

Most folks don't have birds that are dangerous. The birds I was working with were attempting to remove flesh. The behavior mods for those guys tends to be different.

And then you distinguish between the fear biters, from the birds with dominance issues, and the spoiled bird syndrome/tantrum throwers. Those are the three things you see.

Abused birds generally become fear biters. That's easily fixed with patience, love, and occasionally, a large towel.

Birds that are allowed to get their way with their beaks tend to have dominance issues. That one gets fixed with discipline, being put on the floor, and the occasional large pillow.

Birds that have been "permissively parented" to the point where they get anything they want, when ever they want, or they throw a tantrum, and then get what ever they want... That one takes awhile, and generally needs multiple behavior mods to fix.

Generally speaking, you just keep working at it...