Old vs Modern techniques...

[thekarens]

What?! No sensory deprivation? LOL!

You might be unpleasantly surprised to learn how many people use the cage cover as a more or less permanent solution to the pesky bird noise problem...

Some get covered for days on end at the slightest peep...

And those are the ones that end up psychologically damaged.

We fostered a macaw that was kept alone in a STORAGE UNIT for 32 years!

is right! That bird had a wonderful personality, and they ruined him, because he was half-bonkers from sensory deprivation!

IDIOTS!

The guy I got Sydney from was putting his birds in a plastic travel cage and putting them in the closet. Thankfully he had only had Sydney a couple months when he decided to get rid of him. Sydney is a much bigger chatterer than Sammie, but not even close to being loud or noisy.

 

[Terry57]

Xander was also kept in a back room and covered almost all the time in a very small cage because they said he was too loud I do not understand people at all.

 

[RavensGryf]

Poor guys! Fortunately Sydney and Xander got lucky. Those poor birds (or any pet) at the mercy of cruel humans.

 

[veimar]

Oh my Gosh… :O After reading this thread I know one thing for sure that I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING about parrot training! LOL I did a lot of reading and research, but ended up having my gcc just like a child without any special "training". I had no idea how complicated all this stuff is…

 

[RavensGryf]

@ veimar -
Sometimes you just get a good bird from the get go who is pretty easy. As long as he knows the basics, and at least step up. Further training will give the bird additional stimulation and bonding time with you. If you have a bird who's not very stubborn, then great!

 

[veimar]

Exactly! He is very easy even being my first parrot. But he steps up only when he wants to - I gave up on that. But good thing is that I trained him not to poo on me! I'm basically just talking to him with certain facial expressions I also teach him tricks how to get sunflower seeds out of envelopes. He loves that!
You folks are dealing with really difficult birds that need special skill and experience. I'm just a firstgrader compared to you.

 

[RavensGryf]

I've had easy birds before too. If you get a juvenile or get one shipped across country to you, you will never know what sort of personality you'll get! It's so individual just like any intelligent pet. Or human children for that matter.

 

[Birdman666]

The guy I got Sydney from was putting his birds in a plastic travel cage and putting them in the closet. Thankfully he had only had Sydney a couple months when he decided to get rid of him. Sydney is a much bigger chatterer than Sammie, but not even close to being loud or noisy.

Why am I not surprised by any of this?

There were two or three really psychologically difficult to comprehend incidents, almost back to back, that precipitated my not doing parrot rescue stuff anymore. I was becoming so damned angry at what I saw, that it was affecting both my quality of life, and the quality of life of those around me... plus I was so angry I wanted to beat the crap outta these people. It was all I could do to NOT become violent after what I saw.

Always the same excuse "What?! It's JUST a bird..." AS IF I WERE THE ONE WHO WAS OUT OF LINE... [I must be sick, or crazy. These are not sensitive living things that actually feel pain!]

Without bothering with all the details, this guy got a baby greenwing from a breeder just off hand feeding. The bird attention screamed. When he did that, the guy stuck the bird in the crate to "punish" him. This of course, made the bird scream more, NOT LESS. AT THAT POINT, HE INSTRUCTED HIS KIDS TO KICK THE CRATE UNTIL THE BIRD SHUT UP!!!

The bird, of course, shut up when he became seriously injured...

Great thing to teach your kids, eh?!

Then worse happened... and I just couldn't take it anymore.

I just wanted to be around happy birds, and happy, respectful, loving people.
NOT IDIOTS ANYMORE!

 

[RavensGryf]

First OMG! My jaw dropped as I felt heartwrenching pain reading that!!

Second... That was Karen's quote not mine (not that it matters) but weird when you missed the

how it did that. I was dumbfounded for a split second when I first saw it though lol!

 

[GW.Joe]

I too have been feeling a lot of anger from reading some of the HORROR on this forum

I don't understand why they don't just give the bird to someone ?@#$%^

Especially people that could not otherwise be able to afford one
Or older folks that are alone and would love the bird unconditionally

When they say "its just a bird" I guess they don't realize these "birds" are 4th on the list of intelligence just under Dolphins, Chimps, & Elephants?

My blood pressure goes up just hearing your post.....

 

[veimar]

Without bothering with all the details, this guy got a baby greenwing from a breeder just off hand feeding. The bird attention screamed. When he did that, the guy stuck the bird in the crate to "punish" him. This of course, made the bird scream more, NOT LESS. AT THAT POINT, HE INSTRUCTED HIS KIDS TO KICK THE CRATE UNTIL THE BIRD SHUT UP!!!

The bird, of course, shut up when he became seriously injured...

Great thing to teach your kids, eh?!

Then worse happened... and I just couldn't take it anymore.

I just wanted to be around happy birds, and happy, respectful, loving people.
NOT IDIOTS ANYMORE!

OMG! I wanna kill this jerk! There should be a legal punishment for such senseless abuse. I just cannot believe how cruel can people be. Our local shelters are full of toos and other big birds whom people take like cute toys and then just dump them when they find out that they have to care for them. Awful. I cannot stop crying thinking of this little greening...

 

[Birdman666]

As bad as that was, the second incident was worse in terms of just man's inhumane treatment of animals... I'm not going to even describe that one, or the ineptitude of the legal system, or the complicity of the parents involve that raised these little monsters enabling them by excusing what they did... "What?! It's JUST a bird!"

And this is on top of having spent thanksgiving pulling 75 birds out of a "backyard breeder" situation, where the owner just walked away and left them there to die of starvation and thirst... (Most of them died. We were called too late.)

And I have, once again, ranted and hijacked a thread.

Sorry.

 

[GW.Joe]

Consider it good therapy, spread the pain, take some of the burden off yourself, sounds like you've seen too much already

 

[Birdman666]

OMG! I wanna kill this jerk! There should be a legal punishment for such senseless abuse. I just cannot believe how cruel can people be. Our local shelters are full of toos and other big birds whom people take like cute toys and then just dump them when they find out that they have to care for them. Awful. I cannot stop crying thinking of this little greening...

So did I. And what little monster children he was creating... (those kids would be adults now!) And no, nothing happened to him. The justice system lacks the funding to prosecute these kinds of cases. So, not even an arrest. "It's just a bird... Go home."

In fact, I very nearly ended up under arrest on that occasion... so, that was when it was time to say I'm not fit to do this anymore. I can no longer control my temper in these situations.

 

[RavensGryf]

And I have, once again, ranted and hijacked a thread.
Sorry.

No worries Birdman! I always love hearing your stories although they make me very upset Can't stop thinking about the guy with the GW and his kids. The guy needs to be punched out to say the least!

 

[RavensGryf]

In fact, I very nearly ended up under arrest on that occasion... so, that was when it was time to say I'm not fit to do this anymore. I can no longer control my temper in these situations.

I don't blame you one bit. I can't even imagine the kind of self control it took to restrain yourself from killing the guy!!

 

[MonicaMc]

Here's a couple of articles by Susan Friedman.

Alternatives to Breaking Parrots
The Struggle for Dominance
The Facts About Punishment


More here... Written Works: Learning and Behavior - BehaviorWorks.com



And to take one snippet out of one of the articles....

Our job as effective teachers is to arrange the environment and the outcomes in such a way that our birds choose to do what we want them to do. Response blocking and flooding eliminate the element of choice entirely from the behavior-change process; and, although some behaviors may be reduced, no new behaviors are learned. The bird pulled out of his cage has not been taught to step up when requested and the caretaker who pulled him out of his cage has not been taught how to teach his/her bird to step up.

When I think of "old techniques", I think about the use of flooding (removing choice, not allowing the animal to have a choice in the final outcome, bird learns to submit or tolerate a situation it does not like), negative reinforcement (animal coerced into complying - if animal doesn't step up then something scary is introduced and bird must choose the lesser of two evils) and positive punishment (using water bottles, towels, blankets, rolled up newspaper or other objects to stop a behavior).


When I think of modern/new techniques, I think of positive reinforcement (birds learn to do a behavior for a reward, and will start to present the behavior in anticipation of reward), applied behavior analysis (science of behavior - study of the functional relations between behavior and environmental events - a study of how animals learn), classical conditioning two objects paired together, a response that is at first elicited by the second item is eventually elicited by the first alone) and operant conditioning (behavior modified by it's antecedents and consequences).


An example of classical conditioning is when a child learns that the sound of a triangle bell (dinner bell) means that dinner is ready and to come inside, or the sound of kibble falling into a dish could cause a dog to salivate in anticipation of food.

Operant conditioning is looking at the cause of the behavior and it's consequences. An animal learns (even if by accident) that if I do this, then that happens - such as a rat pushing a lever receives a piece of food. In order to continue receiving food, they must continue to push the lever.



All the new training is starting to be called Force Free Training - that is, there is no pain, fear or startle. Birds are taught to do the behaviors we want them to do through choice.

Force-Free Parrot Training | Denver Parrots
Force-free methods to stop a dog from pulling towards people and other dogs - Tucson Dog | Examiner.com




I do see people who don't fully understand positive reinforcement training end up using both new and old techniques.

Flooding - pushing into birds stomach, chest or even lifting toes to get bird to step up - often results in biting and avoidance behaviors

Positive Reinforcement - rewarding bird for looking at you, rewarding bird for moving towards you, rewarding bird for touching you, rewarding bird for putting a foot on you, rewarding bird for putting both feet on you

Muddled Both - push into birds stomach, bird steps up, bird gets reward

 

[RavensGryf]

I do understand the principles behind Postitive Reinforcement quite well. It is some good stuff no doubt. Reminds me of a class I once took while in college...
Through this thread, I guess I'm not 'hard core' old school, but I use the path of least resistance whether that be from new techniques at first, to some older methods which DO NOT include fear, pain, or startling of the bird, which HAVE resulted in happy loving companions over the years (but I'm not talking about Raven since he's not years old).
Also, how about the bird companions of several if not many members here who have NOT adopted the newer techniques, and have had decades of experience raising or rehabbing or working with many pet birds, and have raised happy, loving, well adjusted birds, who don't have a behavior problem to speak of (or not anymore).

No argument, just wondering your opinion from a neutral stance here...

 

[MonicaMc]

I do think that techniques such as flooding and negative punishment do work, but not in the birds favor. In some birds, it may even result in a bird that "does nothing" because they are too afraid to do anything. Sure, they can be handled, you might even be able to pass them on to other people, but it's not by choice.


I'd rather see birds eager to do something because they know it'll mean good things happen rather than birds who are reluctant to do something because it's a bad experience for them.

 

[RavensGryf]

In some birds I've had (and Robin) step up is and always was so automatic. In fact in a few instances birds came to me already knowing step up and they didn't even question it or think twice about it. I don't know how the breeders taught it.

20 years ago when I got Robin as a juvenile, I don't even think I trained him in ANY way actually! I don't even remember to be honest, but I know my little old cuddle monster steps up eagerly everytime to be with me : ) Robin is and has never been real stubborn though. Different personalities.