More Sammy weirdness

[YoshiSwe]

The isoflavons in soy are similar to estrogen and bind to the same receptors, they are however weaker than our real estrogen, so depending on the estrogen levels in the individual it can have different effects depending if the body already has estrogen or not.
My guess, and I am no vet but I am a chemist, is that it is very hard to say if soy has an effect on your parrot. Best way would be to actually have him off soy completely for a few weeks and see if there is any improvement. Still, the improvement could be due to other adjustments you make.

 

[LeaKP]

I'm not owned by an Amazon so I've only been following Sammys news. I do hope this slight change means good things are ahead!

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

How is Sam responding today?? Not only for you..it must be terrible for the boy..He's prolly wondering to himself " What the h*** is wrong with me???"
I feel..for the BOTH of you,honestly!



Jim

 

[Inger]

In any event, he's now (mostly) reasonably comfortable with me sitting beside his cage & talking to him...as long as he's inside with the door closed. If I open it, he races to the top of the cage, then gets as far from me as physically possible. Still, it's a bit of an improvement.

This seems like excellent progress! I'm glad for the update. I was wondering about you and Sammy the other day.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kentuckienne]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/#!po=4.28571

As far as I understand, evidence is all over the place. Sometimes it's good and sometimes bad, depends in the source of the proteins, the age at which they are consumed, the specific compounds, the type f animal, I'm totally confused, but maybe I'll stop putting soy protein isolate in my smoothies..

 

[DerTier]

Im glad you at least have a new angle to attack the problem now! Glad there is finally a glimmer of hope for your family!

 

[mh434]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3074428/#!po=4.28571

As far as I understand, evidence is all over the place. Sometimes it's good and sometimes bad, depends in the source of the proteins, the age at which they are consumed, the specific compounds, the type f animal, I'm totally confused, but maybe I'll stop putting soy protein isolate in my smoothies..

It seems to depend on which study you read, doesn't it?

One thing I've noted is that soy is NOT always the same, and its chemical content can vary considerably depending on where it's sourced from, where it's grown, etc. etc. My understanding is that the variance is sufficient that one particular lot of Brand X Premium Pellets might not contain harmful chemicals, yet the next lot might be loaded with them, depending on where & when the manufacturer sourced their soy. Some of the chemicals that can be found in soy protein certainly seem to be widely recognized as toxic, and the effects of some of these chemicals are cumulative.

The only way to be certain would be to have various lots of soy-based bird foods tested as to chemical content. Unfortunately, this would be costly, and there would need to be some regulatory body to force it to be done. This, IMHO, is unlikely to happen.

In any case, I think there's little to lose in trying high-quality, soy-free food for our FIDS for a while. If it will help them stay healthy, I'm all for it.

 

[Kentuckienne]

I was thinking about you and Sammy last night. I bought a copy of Parrots for Dummies, and to my surprise found it useful and informative. She had lots of advice about aggression in parrots, reading the behavior, making changes....maybe you have seen it already, but if you were closer I'd lend it to you.

Those darn birds, it doesn't seem to matter what our intentions are, they make up their own little parrot minds. You can't make Sammy love you again, any more than I could make anyone love me. It seems good that you are turning over every stone, and if you don't find his magic key maybe he's just got a different path to happiness?

 

[mh434]

Well, he is a contrary bird, that's for sure! I'm still trying to figure out what I did to make him think I'd "broken the faith", but I'm inclined to think it was the arrival of Reno, our rescue African Gray. Up until then, I'm sure Sammy considered himself the "alpha" bird in the flock, and I suppose he was. When Reno arrived, I was careful to not openly pay attention to him & to keep paying attention to Sammy, but I suspect Sam wasn't buying it & blames me for him feeling that he's now #2 in the hierarchy. I don't really know, it's just a theory. The fact that Sammy has never spoken a word since the day Reno arrived seems to point that way.

My wife doesn't think I'll be successful in regaining his trust, and that I should make a clean break. Me? I'm still clinging to hope & doing everything in my power. There are tiny indications he might be softening, a little, but my wife thinks it's wishful thinking.

 

[mh434]

Thought it was time for an update.

I've been following 100% of the advice I've been given, and there is a little progress. I spend a lot of time sitting beside Sammy's cage, talking to him quietly, and I think that's helping. The change of diet (pellets with no soy, a little of his favorite seed & fruit mix, some quinoa, and frequent treats of whatever I'm having - particularly chicken or beef!), longer hours of darkness (he's accepting me covering him, now), etc. are probably helping, too.

He still doesn't want me near him when he's out of his cage, and gets as far away as he can, but every once in awhile I can get away with gently tugging on his tail (a game he used to love), touching his beak, or even (a few days ago) a brief neck skritch.

I plan to just keep on doing what I'm doing & see if I can get him to trust me again. It's a long, hard, dusty road...

 

[SailBoat]

Thank-you, for your updates and more, the efforts that you are putting into place.

It is my great hope that your efforts will be rewarded and that Sammy will find his way back!

 

[Kentuckienne]

Good luck, man.

 

[fowlstack]

Sounds like you're making progress..thinking about you and Sammy...keep us posted

Sent from my SM-T337T using Tapatalk

 

[mh434]

Thought I'd post an update on Sammy's progress.

He's most definitely improving! Every day, he accepts scritches now. When he's out of his cage & I approach and rub my fingers and thumb together (kind of like the action we make when we're talking about money), most of the time he'll scamper over for neck scritches. His patience runs out fairly quickly (a minute or two max), but he just pulls away rather than biting. He'll even let me gently rub his beak, sometimes.

The other day, I was standing close to his cage while he was perched on top of the open cage door, and he -voluntarily! - stepped up onto my shoulder!!! It may seem like a small thing, but it's the first time in about 2 1/2 years that he's stepped up. I've got to admit, it brought a tear of joy to my eye...or several! He started getting owly after a minute or so (flaring, pinning, hissing), and I let him step back onto his cage door, but it was a huge milestone nonetheless, IMHO. Believe me, he got a peanut for that!! He hasn't repeated it, but he does consider it from time to time.

He's also gotten vastly better at getting covered up for the night. It used to throw him into an uncontrolled rage. Now, as I'm covering him up, I talk softly to him, even after the cover's on, and he gradually gets quieter, making soft cooing sounds, until he's silent and still for the night. It all seems to be having a calming effect, and I believe he's actually starting to trust me again, at least a tiny bit.

As my wife says, I'm "moving the peanut forward", a fraction every day.

 

[Inger]

Wonderful news! I was wondering about you two the other day. Glad to hear you’re making progress.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Sunnyclover]

I have fallowed this whole thread from start till now and I haven't spoken up but I'd just like to say I admire you greatly for how much effort you've put into this bird. He's lucky to have you...many would have given up long ago but now he's accepting scratches and even stepped up onto your shoulder, how exciting! He'll be back to his old self one day I can feel it.

 

[mh434]

Thank you all for your continued support! I love Sammy deeply, so I'm in it for the long haul, as it were.

Good thing - it appears that 'Zons have loooong memories!!

I believe I will eventually be successful in regaining his trust - I just have to be patient...one tiny step at a time. It's funny - he used to step up onto my forearm any time I presented it, but that stopped on the day that our CAG arrived (the day my forearm became something to attack!).

Recently, when I offer my forearm (I'm still doing that, despite all the scars! - I'm a slow learner...), although he doesn't step up, he does pause, tilt his head to the side, and contemplate it, as though weighing the possibility.

One thing is nice - when he's ready to turn in for the evening, he starts squawking loudly. He usually gets a peanut just before lights-out, so he's eager for that, and as I approach with his peanut he scrambles to get into his cage. The covering-up process is now soothing to him, he wants me to know that he's ready, and he nods off in minutes once his cage is covered.

I'm not giving up!

 

[wrench13]

So good to know you are still working with Sammy and making progress. Deep down that bird loves you still.

 

[mh434]

Just thought I'd update on Sammy.

Still little if any progress - he will NOT step up, and attacks viciously if this is attempted. Strangely, it used to be that when he flew, and landed somewhere awkward, he was happy to let me "rescue" him. Not in the past two or three years, though. He is happy to be picked up with a stick when this happens. If I set the stick down near him, he pulls it closer, steps onto it, and waits for me to lift him back to his cage top.

I still sit & talk to him every day. In the morning when I do this, he flares, hisses, and retreats to the far bottom corner of his cage. After about 20 minutes of talking to him, he does calm down a little, as long as I don't look at him, or move (even a little).

It is difficult for me. I used to have a bird that would cuddle, chatter contentedly while sitting on my shoulder, and enjoy being with me. No matter how long I try, I don't believe those days will ever return. It's now been 3 years since he changed and, despite all my efforts & following all the accepted 'Zon advice, he seems to have reached a plateau where he will accept my presence, at a distance, but that's it. Absolutely NO physical contact, of any kind, is acceptable.

Meanwhile, my wife's CAG is an inveterate cuddle bird who desperately wants to be my friend, but I don't dare, as the slightest sign of me giving another bird attention, of any kind, causes Sammy to go into a violent rage for a month or so.

It's starting to look like I will never again enjoy the attention of a loving bird. It's discouraging, and sad.

I envy all of you who have lovable birds - it would have been easier if I had never experienced it myself, and would not have known what I was missing....

 

[Anita1250]

I am so sorry to hear about your sadness. I have had a somewhat similar situation. I had an OWA that got out of the house in February in NY. We searched for him for 4 days, but finally gave up when the temperature hit 20F. The next day we got a baby BFA, although we were heartbroken over Rocky, we couldn't not have a parrot.

One day later, someone called us to tell us that there was a parrot in the tree in front of their house. We rushed over, and it was indeed Rocky, our OWA. I rattled his food can, and he flew over to me and he was home!

Well, now we had two parrots. We thought that was great, but Rocky not so much. He hated that baby, also named Sammy like yours. They began a very "rocky" relationship. Sam grew to be very large, and would beat up Rocky every chance he got. Rocky became a screamer and biter, and was never happy when we were near him. I guess we had slighted him with all the attention Sam got.

However, he did love my father. So, Rocky went to live with Nicky. They were together until about 5 years ago when Rocky passed at age 46. My father followed two years later, at age 88.

Sam is still with us and is now 34 years old. I will always feel bad that we turned Rocky into a mean parrot, but there was nothing I could do. We loved Sam too. I am also forever grateful that he found happiness with my father.

I guess the moral of the story is that you do what you can humanly do, and then leave it in the hands of fate. If fate says that your Sammy must move onto another home to be happy, so be it. At least I still got to see Rocky, but he never did get over being mad at me.

Good luck to you and I hope that everything works out for you and your Sammy. :35::35: