More Sammy weirdness

[mh434]

Well, I just spent some time trying this. It went...worse than I could have imagined. I read to him quietly, but my very presence in the room seems to enrage him. After chasing after me on foot, while flaring, hissing, and snapping his beak at me, he started flying around the room, crashing into walls, pictures, etc. I was terrified he was going to break his neck, as he was hitting things at full speed. I tried to contain him with a large, thick bath towel, but he bit right through 4 layers and got me. Finally, I was able to wrap a lot of towels around a stick, and got him to step onto the far end (after he shredded the last couple of inches of it), and put him back in his cage. I had to continually wobble the stick to make him grip it, rather than run up it & attack my hand.

This is the most aggressive & furious I've ever seen him. Picture trying to handle a cornered, angry bobcat.

After a few minutes, I tried another experiment. I had my wife go over to his cage when I wasn't in the room. While he didn't ask to step up on her, he was calm at her approach, just watching her stand at his cage and talk to him. He seemed to have no problem with her presence.

We're going to try having her gain his confidence, and maybe he'll bond to her. She's concerned, though - she's very tightly bonded to her African Gray, and she's afraid that Sammy bonding to her may threaten that. One thing's sure, though...there's no trace left of his bond with me, and he views me as a deadly enemy or a threat.


I miss "my" Sammy, but it looks like the loving 'Zon days are gone, for me anyway.

 

[mh434]

My wife & I have had a long talk, and she doesn't want to try to bond with Sammy, as she feels she has her hands full with her CAG. She thinks it best to re-home Sammy, in the hopes that he'll find someone to actually bond with, and she intends to start the process today.

We've had, literally, dozens of rescue animals over the years, with absolute total success, every single creature thriving and flourishing under our love and care. Until Sammy. Somehow, somewhere along the way, I've failed him, and he's cast me out.

The thought of having to give him up is so painful that I don't have words to express it. I loved him deeply, from the moment I met him, and I can't believe it's over. My tears are falling as I write this, and will continue long after he's gone.

I know that every time I look at my collection of his castoff feathers, the hundreds of pictures of him, the calendar he was featured in, it will be a constant reminder of my love for him, and my failure to keep him happy.

 

[Inger]

I'm so sorry.


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[mh434]

Thanks, Inger. It's so difficult!

My wife points out that Sammy's quality of life has deteriorated, as he's furious 24/7, exhibiting 100% of the 'Zon aggression signs, every minute of the day when I'm in the house (or even if I'm out, and he hears my voice on the phone). She doesn't want to let him out, because he's even aggressive toward the rest of our flock, climbing into their cages & threatening them.

She feels that, if he stays with us, he'll be permanently confined inside his cage, and it would be selfish of us to keep him that way, closed away & unhappy, when there may be a home out there where he'd be happy. There is one particular local, parrot-savvy lady, who has been asking to adopt an Amazon for months now. I suppose I will have to contact her, and do a home-visit interview, before making even the start of a decision.

I feel like I'm shopping for someone to put down my dog. It's heartbreaking, but my wife feels that it's inevitable, and putting it off will only make it more painful for everyone, including Sammy.

I've read of other people who've had to make such a decision, but I always thought "That could NEVER happen to me!".

 

[Inger]

I can only imagine how difficult it must be. Sometimes the best decision is also the hardest decision. It's not a decision you're coming to lightly though, so as hard as it is, don't beat yourself up over having to make it.


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[mh434]

Thanks, Inger, I appreciate your support greatly.

As I think about it, I realize how much stress Sammy's been going through, and I feel so bad about it. My wife thinks a "clean break" is best.

She tells me that the vet's offer to help re-home Sammy will include full vetting, a home inspection, etc., before they'll even consider a new home for him. They don't charge anyone for this - they just want a happy new home for him.

 

[Inger]

That's a wonderful vet right there.


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[mh434]

My veterinarian's office called, and passed on the number of a contact group about 60 miles north of me. The vet says she's tried other re-homing methods, but this group has been the very best. They even re-homed a bird for the vet once (she says it still hurts, 10 years later, but it was best for the bird, which flourished in its new home). The group is a closely-knit bunch of lifelong parrot people who know each other & have an enormous knowledge base. The vet says they're extraordinarily cautious when re-homing to ensure the perfect placement.

I got a call back from the leader of the group, almost immediately. She's aware that Sammy's one of the "hot" 'Zons, and might be difficult to place, but she's going to start inquiries (she, too, apparently, has an extremely aggressive YNA she's adopted that she's working with, so she knows what I'm talking about).

In the interim, she's recommending:
- reducing his daylight hours even further (at least 14 hours' darkness),
- reducing or stopping the use of Harrison's (too much soy, apparently?),
-more fruits & veggies,
- a little more seed mix than he's getting,
- clipping his wings (he's always been fully flighted),
- using "Pet Rescue Remedy (Pet)" drops to reduce stress (the non-alcoholic ones, of course - I've never been a believer in homeopathic remedies, but she says they've all had good success with this for years, the reviews seem to be excellent, and all agree it certainly won't harm him), and
- sitting beside his cage, NOT looking at him, and talking to him for long periods of time.

Meanwhile, she's going to see what she can do from her end. She does say that re-homing an extremely aggressive 'Zon can be very difficult.

Wish us luck!

 

[Kentuckienne]

Good luck to you both.

 

[mh434]

Thanks, Kentuckienne. This is unbelievably stressful for me! I love Sammy deeply, and his distance and anger toward me are heartbreaking.

I've been thinking more about the community group contact's mention of the "I'm the big bird!" syndrome. Thinking back, the day that our CAG Reno became part of our flock was the day that Sammy last spoke to me. He still screeches and yells, but no speech. He used to talk all the time - even when I was out of the room, he'd carry on a conversation with himself, in several voices (it sounded like a group of people talking & joking). But now, he'll only say a few words if I'm not home.

From the day Reno arrived, Sammy became colder and more distant toward me, eventually turning to open aggression after a couple of weeks of him being hormonal. To my horror, he's never come back from that, continuing to get more aggressive. He tolerates my wife if I'm not home, but once I'm there, he's on the warpath with anyone present. "My" Sammy is...gone.

It's all I can think about these days. I can't eat, I haven't had a night's sleep in a week, and have nightmares about losing Sammy when I do manage to drift off. I'm at my wits end, and I'm losing my closest friend in the world.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Thanks, Kentuckienne. This is unbelievably stressful for me! I love Sammy deeply, and his distance and anger toward me are heartbreaking.

I've been thinking more about the community group contact's mention of the "I'm the big bird!" syndrome. Thinking back, the day that our CAG Reno became part of our flock was the day that Sammy last spoke to me. He still screeches and yells, but no speech. He used to talk all the time - even when I was out of the room, he'd carry on a conversation with himself, in several voices (it sounded like a group of people talking & joking). But now, he'll only say a few words if I'm not home.

From the day Reno arrived, Sammy became colder and more distant toward me, eventually turning to open aggression after a couple of weeks of him being hormonal. To my horror, he's never come back from that, continuing to get more aggressive. He tolerates my wife if I'm not home, but once I'm there, he's on the warpath with anyone present. "My" Sammy is...gone.

It's all I can think about these days. I can't eat, I haven't had a night's sleep in a week, and have nightmares about losing Sammy when I do manage to drift off. I'm at my wits end, and I'm losing my closest friend in the world.

Sweetheart, and I am allowed to call you that because I live in the south and we call everybody "sweetheart"...you are beating yourself up for no good reason. No good comes of you feeling guilty or tormenting yourself about the situation. Guilt serves a useful purpose sometimes - it can stop us from doing something we know is wrong, or lead us to mend our ways and make restitution when appropriate. But that's not what you are facing.

You tried everything to win Sammy back. You took suggestions from perfect strangers. You took him to the vet. You changed everything in your control to see what could be causing the problem. You've suffered the bites, the rejection, the attacks. Sammy is the one who changed, and you rightly understand that he is not to blame, and you don't hold it against him. You still love him and agonize over what's best. Try to see if you can have compassion for yourself, too.

What's eating you is the programming, the messages. If you get a parrot, you must keep it forever-you're responsible for it no matter what it does. These messages aren't bad - they help wavering humans to stay the course, hold on during bad times and reach deep to make life good for their birds. But sometimes it's better for marriages to dissolve, for friends to part ways, than for the relationship to become a source of negativity. People change. In this case, Sammy changed. So your relationship changed, even though you were constant, and neither of you sound very happy to me.

Plus, you love Sammy, and want things to go back to the way they were before so you can continue to love and be loved by him. It must be terribly painful.

If Sammy is really not happy...if you've tried everything and nothing works...if Sammy's personality is such that he can't share a home with you and another bird...you can't do anything about it. You can't change Sammy. You can wait years for him to grow out of it, but there's a risk he may not grow out of it and he'll continue to be stressed an unhappy. You can find another home for him, but there's a risk that won't work out either or there will be trouble some day. You aren't in control of either outcome. All you can do is make the best decision you can with Sammy's welfare in mind.

Maybe you could make a list of the things you haven't tried that might work...14 hours a day of darkness, clipped wings, lower perch and cage, tofu because it has estrogen-like compounds that might help or whatever diet changes you want to try, etc. and give it one last shot. You could write up a plan, what to do for how long and what next steps to take, then read it to Sammy and explain what's going to happen. He won't know what you mean, but it's respectful. Then do what you have to do for his sake, and be at peace with it.

If he still doesn't come around then you will KNOW you did everything you could, and he's just not happy. After all, he's a conscious, thinking being who is allowed to make up his own mind. If he makes up his mind that he hates you, he's allowed to do that. It doesn't seem like the wisest choice to me...you sound like a keeper of a human. But I'm not Sammy. IF there is a place for him with somebody he takes to right away...and IF you have a written agreement that says you have the option to take him back if things don't work out...then who's to say that's not the kindest path? Sometimes we do have to let the ones we love go, because they don't love us any more. It's not easy. It sucks. I'm sorry, really I am. It's agonizing, almost worse than losing them to disease, because the one you love is still there, but the love is gone.

I'm sure you'll get nothing but support and compassion from everyone here. It must have taken a lot of courage to share this difficult situation with a bunch of internet strangers in the hopes of finding a cure. If that's not love, I don't know what it.

 

[mh434]

Thank you so much!! The support I've got here means so much to me! There are times I feel so alone with my Sammy problem, with nowhere to turn, but you're all helping me cope. I'm going to do everything the community group suggests, and continue to try to win Sammy back, but I'm facing the reality of what I must do if nothing works. I can handle anything, including trips to the clinic to get patched up, but Sammy's health and future are absolutely paramount to me. If there's anything I can do to make him happy and content, I'll do it. Even if that requires finding him a new home, in the end.

 

[DerTier]

As an animal trainer and special needs rescuer i can tell you right now that with any animal that has become this dangerous despite the incredibly crazy dedication and work you've done...
There comes a time where its just best to rehome. You have NOTHING to feel bad about... You went to the moon and back, and you aren't considering rehoming for a selfish reason. Animals can become very ill from stress and even die if subjected to it long enough, so if it is what is best for Sammy then know you are doing it out of love. I'm so sorry you had to go through this, this is heartbreaking

 

[fowlstack]

I would be interested to know what the results of the testing was regarding his/her sex.
I feel terrible for your circumstances, and wish you all the best.

 

[Joon]

As I think about it, I realize how much stress Sammy's been going through, and I feel so bad about it. My wife thinks a "clean break" is best.

She tells me that the vet's offer to help re-home Sammy will include full vetting, a home inspection, etc., before they'll even consider a new home for him. They don't charge anyone for this - they just want a happy new home for him.

This might be irrelevant if the clinic is someplace like Night Owl, but if you're going to go this route it might be worth talking to Greyhaven and the Exotic Bird Society to help get the word out and/or help find a home for Sammy.

Good luck.

 

[mh434]

Greyhaven is another avenue, for sure, but they're still flooded with hundreds of other parrots that still need re-homing from the collapse of the parrot rescue in Coombs BC, and my vet's afraid that if Sammy went there, he might "fall through the cracks". It's still a possibility, though.

Meanwhile, we're going through the list of possible aids we've been given to try. I'm still hoping for a miracle!

 

[mh434]

I'm still working on Sam. It may be my imagination, but it almost seems like his aggression is receding a tiny bit. We're using "Rescue Remedy" drops, which may be helping (apparently, it takes a few weeks to really see a change in stress level), and I sit outside his cage & talk to him for a while, a couple of times a day.

It's hard, as I may never know what caused him to lose his trust in me, and regaining a failed trust is much harder than building one in the first place. I'm going to keep trying for a month or two, regardless. At this point there seem to be zero likely re-homing options available. Despite my wife's urging to make a quick, clean break, I love my Sammy so much that any delay feels like a temporary stay of execution from the Governor...

One interesting thing came up from the parrot expert group - they say they've found that soy, included in food, is a major contributor to hormonal activity in male 'Zons. When they asked what kind of pellet food we were giving him, I told them it's Harrison's "Adult Lifetime". Their response was "Ahah! Read the label!". I did - Harrison's is extremely high in soy (#3 by volume in the contents). So, we've switched to a soy-free pellet food. The downside is that he won't touch it (he doesn't like change). I suppose if he gets hungry enough, he'll eat it.

BTW, the results of his DNA test came back - Sam's a confirmed male. This didn't surprise me - on figuring the sex of our birds by their behaviors, I've been right 10 out of 10 times so far. At least it's nice to have the confirmation in Sammy's case, where it's an important part of understanding him.

I'll keep you posted.

 

[Kentuckienne]

That's funny about soy - I've heard just the opposite. Soy contains estrogen-like compounds, so it's possible that it could encourage hormonal behavior in females. In her book about Alex the African grey, Dr. Pepperberg wrote about a time in Alex's life when he became hormonal, and part of the treatment was to feed him tofu and to shorten his daylight hours. It worked.

Now if Sammy had some kind of allergy to soy...or not even allergy, some animals wind up with strange proteins in the gut from food not being fully digested. So there could be a food trigger, something that acts on his brain. It's documented in humans, incomplete digestion of certain grains leading to behavioral issues in children.

 

[mh434]

It was a surprise to me, as well. I mentioned it to my avian vet, and she'd heard something about this recently too. She's going to be looking into it. Interestingly, the labeling on the new food seems to indicate that this is sufficiently recognized by some as an issue to prompt a company to come out with a whole new formulation of soy-free parrot food. Maybe it's a ploy, who knows? I know of the use of estrogen in cattle, etc., but I'm not sure parallels can be drawn with parrots, as their digestive & reproductive systems are so different (birds are actually much closer to reptiles than mammals in this regard). On an internet search, I found a reference to reducing high-soy pellet food as a means to reducing hormonal activity in parrots.

Sammy definitely seems a little more calm since the change, with less obviously-hormonal "activities". We've cut down his daylight hours considerably (and he's NOT happy about being covered up when the rest of the flock are still active & noisy), I'm still sitting & talking to him daily, he's on the non-soy food (although he doesn't like it much), and the Rescue Remedy drops. Theoretically, the latter would be put in his water, but he doesn't drink much & uses the large dish as a bath, mostly. Instead, my wife makes up a food mixture of quinoa, grated carrots, grated fresh fruit, powdered calcium (from cuttlebone), and for Sammy, Rescue Remedy drops. All the birds go nuts for this mixture, including Sammy, so I know he's getting the drops.

In any event, he's now (mostly) reasonably comfortable with me sitting beside his cage & talking to him...as long as he's inside with the door closed. If I open it, he races to the top of the cage, then gets as far from me as physically possible. Still, it's a bit of an improvement.

 

[mh434]

Vis-a-vis the foregoing regarding soy, I found this article amongst several others:

Soy Based Food Products for Parrots

Disturbingly, to me, the following conclusion was reached:

"Many problems have been highlighted and recognised as being related to feeding soy based products to our birds. The above examples are only a few extracts of many related reports from many different sources. Although they are all very disturbing the Soy problems relating to the retarding effect on the reproduction/fertifity systems of birds is causing the most concern as it appears to be irreversible. It seems bizarre that so many bird products currently in use are Soybean based even though many of the effects have been known and reported for some time now. Wild life preservation programmes have also employed Soybean products and supplements for adult animals and birds as well as infant feeds for cats and parrots etc. It is established clearly that all soy foods contain toxic substances causing chronic poisoning and endocrine system disruption at very low levels, This effects all forms of life that we feed it to including our own infants."

Presumably, there are considerations to be made in the choices of pellet food for our fids...