More Sammy weirdness

[Kentuckienne]

I just read an article on Voren's web site about some parrots going insane over certain colors. He said that some parrots would totally panic - for example, if someone comes in wearing a red shirt the parrot would scream and try to get away or go into attack mode. Let me check and find you the link...

Why Does My Bird Panic? | Voren's Aviaries Inc

 

[mh434]

Interesting - believe it or not, my clothing was one of the things I considered! I know he doesn't like black shirts, etc., so I stopped wearing dark clothing several months ago. Unfortunately, he doesn't seem to care what color I wear, as he's still...wild.

 

[Kentuckienne]

I hate to say this, but do you think at this point that he just hates people? This is so distressing.

 

[EllenD]

Honestly, after reading through this entire thread, it seems to me that Sammy's behavior is most likely being caused by hormones. Just because he was acting hormonal prior to his aggressive behavior towards people doesn't mean that the hormones themselves haven't progressed, thus progressing his behavior. You said that he started to slightly lighten up a bit when you were starting to "decrease his daylight hours", so I think that was your cue to what the problem is. If he humps things several times a day and is searching for nesting spots, and has been doing this for years as you said, I'm almost certain your issue is his hormones are out of control. Some birds (as well as other pets like dogs, cats, reptiles, etc.), and people for that matter, are more effected by hormonal changes than others, some aren't effected at all, and some are just overcome by them. No one's systems are exactly the same, and while we use the generic terms "hormones" or "hormonal behavior", there is actually so much more involved and effected by sex hormones. It involves the reproductive system, the endocrine system, the brain chemistry such as serotonin and dopamine being effected by the primary sex hormones, the non sex hormone producing glands being driven for multiple reasons to also suddenly produce more primary sex hormones, such as the adrenal glands on the kidneys, it's just amazing what all is involved and effected by testosterone, estrogen, progesterone, or a lack there of.

My first question is was Sammy ever DNA sexed? Are you absolutely, 100% certain that Sammy is a male? And I don't mean "I'm certain Sammy is a male because he's very vocal and acts like a male, he's never laid an egg, etc.", I mean has he been DNA sexed? The fact that Sammy has never laid an egg means nothing, as a female that is physically unable to lay eggs can have this caused by the same reasons that can cause the aggressive, violent behavior as well. It is a very important that you know this for sure, 100% sure, so if you've never had this done or haven't been given a lab report proving it, you need to spend the $25 and have this done ASAP. I don't know how long you've had Sammy or if you are the original owner, and I've known many birds that were rehomed by their original owner and the new owner was told the bird was "definitely" a certain sex, and they were totally wrong. This can tell us a lot.

Regardless of Sammy's sex, you need to approach his behavioral issues not like they are behavioral issues at all, but rather physical, medical/health issues that are causing a behavioral change in his personality. I know your vet (I'm assuming this is a certified avian vet?) has said Sammy is "completely healthy", I hope that is based on fecal smears, throat, nostril, and crop swabs, cultures, blood work results, etc. and not simply on a physical exam, by the way, because if Sammy has not had these tests done in the last 6 months you need to get them done ASAP as well as the DNA sexing. It's crazy but something as small as a crop infection, gastrointestinal infection, respiratory infection, a parasite, etc. can cause exactly what is happening.

First of all, I think you said that Sammy's cage is in your main living room already. I don't know what you and your wife's schedule is like, but you need to get Sammy's daily schedule corresponding with the sunrise and the sunset, and it must absolutely stay this way year-round for this to work. His cage needs to be in a place that he can at least see subtle light changes in the morning at sunrise and in the evening at sunset. I suggest using a cover for his cage because he is in the living room, so if you guys watch TV or whatever in the living room after sunrise Sammy will still be able to sleep. Trust me, once you cover them they sleep, the noise and light from a TV or whatever doesn't bother them. The cover you use must be a bit translucent so that Sammy will be able to see the light change at sunrise. The alternative method to this is to relocate Sammy's cage to a different room, with at least one window and a door that shuts, and leave him uncovered. If you do this then he will wake up when he sees the sunrise and you'll give him his dinner just before the sun starts to set, and once you've said your goodnights you shut the door to the room right before the sun completely sets. If you keep him in the living room then he'll see the sun start to rise through the cover, or an even better way is if you can put the back of his cage only facing the window. I actually do this and it's awesome, works wonderfully well! I have my bird's cages covered on 3 sides only, the front and both sides are completely blacked out with a very dark cover, but the back of their cages is only covered with a tiny bit of overhang from the cover. This way I feed them in their cages at the very start of the sunset, and just before the sun completely sets I cover the 3 sides of their cages that are facing the living room, the back side of their cages facing the windows I leave mostly uncovered. I'm still in my living room the rest of the night, watching TV, playing guitar, playing with my dogs, whatever, and the birds are out! I do not lift the covers or talk to them once I cover them until sunrise the next morning. This method of covering only 3 sides and having the back against/facing the window makes my life a lot easier because I don't have to be up at sunrise the next morning, the bird will just naturally wake when the sun starts to rise, and once the sun is up they have ample light in their cage even if I'm not up to remove the cover right at sunrise. On work days I am up and actually remove the cover right as the sun rises and I've noticed that after doing this schedule for a while they will focus on the sunrise and watch it intently. Once the sun is completely up they start eating, playing with toys, talking, etc. On Sunday morning when I sleep later I get up and take the cover off of their cages asap, but they are already awake and watching out the window, usually they have been chatting away and playing since sunrise anyway. That's the easiest way.

You have to stick to this schedule strictly, they must see the sun rise and see the sun set, that's key to this working. So I get up at 7:00 in the morning on weekdays, and right now the sunrise starts here around 6:30 or so, but that back cage side being uncovered and facing the window causes them to wake up and they are already awake looking out the window when I uncover them. The sun starts to set here right now around 7:00, so I feed them around 6:00 right now, then cover the 3 sides of their cage as the sun starts to set right around 7:00, maybe a bit before. So they are getting a good 12 hours of sleep every single night, and their natural sleep cycles are now visually dictated by the sun. After a couple of weeks of having them on this "solar schedule" most people notice a drastic change in behavior, their bird gradually starts to become calmer, less aggressive, more affectionate, less humping, less nesting behaviors. You're essentially knocking them out of breeding mode, thus lowering the release of primary sex hormones into their bloodstream, lowering their levels. You're also increasing their amount of daily sleep (and R.E.M. sleep, or restful sleep).

Now if you do this for at least a month and you follow it strictly, and you see no change in Sammy's behavior at all, including less humping his perch, looking for places to nest, etc., then my recommendation (which some people try first because they're desperate, I rather try natural remedies before medical ones, but sometimes it's just necessary) is to talk to your avian vet about getting Sammy on injections of Lupron. Lupron decreases gonadotropin release, thus drastically lowering or completely stopping the production of testosterone and estrogen. It essentially stops all primary sex hormone production, so in females it completely stops ovulation and essentially causes a chemical menopause, and in males it halts most testosterone production (and estrogen production), thus stopping all hormonal, sexual urges and behavior.
Some people are hesitant to try Lupron with their bird, but if you speak to a certified avian vet that is familiar with its use in veterinary medicine, they will tell you that it is not only safe, it has saved many, many birds from being rehomed or ending up in a rescue. The Lupron injection lasts for either 3 months or 6 months, I'm not sure which is most commonly used in avian medicine, but either way you only have to get your bird the shot 2 or 4 times a year, it's not expensive, and you'll know within a month whether Sammy's behavior is being caused by hormones or not for sure. And if it doesn't help Sammy's behavior you just stop the injections. Keep in mind that if you do opt to try Lupron with Sammy, which honestly, in my opinion isn't a bad idea in your case because of how desperate you are, it will not change his behavior instantly. Just like putting him on a solar schedule takes 2-5 weeks to show results, Lupron can take a month or so to show outward results because of the amount of sex hormones already in Sammy's system when he gets the injection. So while Sammy will stop producing testosterone and estrogen directly after getting the first Lupron injection, it will take time for his body to metabolize the hormones that have already been released into his body.

There are always options, you are never completely out of them when it comes to helping your bird and trying to save your relationship with them. Sometimes you need some medicinal help, nothing wrong with that.

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[mh434]

Ellen thank you SO MUCH!!! It's wonderful to get fresh advice that I can act on, and I will!

Many others here have offered me solid, sage advice as well, and I've tried pretty much all of their suggestions, but unfortunately Sammy hasn't responded at all.

I've been so downhearted recently - I've gone from a calm, loving, talkative, bonded bird to an uncontrollable demon, and I miss the old Sammy so much it hurts. Every time he sees me he either rushes to get as far away from me as physically possible, or attacks me like a cobra (picture cornering a large feral cat in a small room!!). I've been at my wits end for over a year now, and clutching at every straw I can find.

I must say, I don't know for certain that Sammy's a male. I'm his second "owner" (he's a rescue - his original owner had him before he was fledged, and died when Sammy was about 10 years old. The man's widow hated Sammy, and put him & his cage out in the rain (winter, Pacific Northwest), leaving him there for a week. Neighbors complained, a rescue organization grabbed him, and I was recruited (as a current parrot owner) to take him on. I was told that he'd been DNA sexed by his original owner, but I have no documentation on that.

I'm going to take your advice & have a full veterinary workup done on him. He's had bloodwork etc. under my care, but not DNA (I asked...it slipped through the cracks at the veterinarian's office & didn't get done). My avian vet is extremely qualified, and loves birds, so he's a great choice for this.

I will definitely ask my vet about Lupron!! Of course, I'm going to make further attempts to more closely regulate his daylight hours first but, I must admit, my efforts so far have had erratic & inconsequential effects. Some days he'll tolerate me in the room, and other days he flies into a rage if sees me or hears my voice...even over a telephone.

 

[Kentuckienne]

I'll also be watching and hoping for a positive turn. Hope you get Old Sammy back soon.

 

[SailBoat]

I'll also be watching and hoping for a positive turn. Hope you get Old Sammy back soon.

Fully agree Ellen! That is a wonderful definition of several methods of treatment that are just so easy to forget!

Truly a great Post Ellen!!!
Thank-you, for the clarity of your reminder.

 

[mh434]

Sammy's booked in tomorrow with our avian vet, for a full medical workup, DNA sexing, etc. I've been reducing his hours of daylight, too. He's starting to get more comfortable with being covered up in the evening (at first, he got really angry about it, but he's getting better).

I'll keep you posted...

 

[clayman]

This is honestly a terrifying story to read. I hope you will get your Sammy back eventually. You have been through so much and yet you still persevere -- that alone is admirable. I will be sure to follow this thread as you post more information on your progress with Sammy.

My two girls are much too young for their sexual hormones to start flooding their bodies but I too am somewhat fearful of what is to come.

 

[Birdman666]

Mine are hormonal.

I'm thinking it could be some sort of "I can't handle it right now."

Give it a few months, your bird will probably return to normal.

Don't stress. Take your time. Don't force the interaction.

DO THE OPPOSITE!!!

IGNORE THE BIRD. DO THINGS THAT MAKE YOUR BIRD CURIOUS. LET THE BIRD COME TO YOU. MAKE THE BIRD INITIATE THE INTERACTION...

The more you push, the more you get push back.

And if it's just hormonal parrot, that will pass on its own in a few months.

 

[Birdman666]

This is honestly a terrifying story to read. I hope you will get your Sammy back eventually. You have been through so much and yet you still persevere -- that alone is admirable. I will be sure to follow this thread as you post more information on your progress with Sammy.

My two girls are much too young for their sexual hormones to start flooding their bodies but I too am somewhat fearful of what is to come.

Well, first of all you have girls. MALE amazons tend to have more hormonal related issues...

Second, it's really generally overstated. A well socialized zon may become a little moody, and not want to be handled much during hormonal times... (Or like my Sally - the opposite. PICK ME UP NOW, NOW, NOW - AND DON'T YOU DARE PAY ATTENTION TO THAT OTHER AMAZON WHEN I'M WITH YOU!!!) but it's usually fairly easy to deal with.

Where you get the problem behaviors are the territorial stuff, and that in my opinion, has more to do with the bird not being handled enough, or properly socialized, or out of his/her cage often enough...

 

[Birdman666]

My neighbor across the street had a hormonal DYH that at the start of breeding season used to turn into a holy terror.

His favorite person was her 12 year old son. He got courted. Everyone else got dive bombed. Don't even THINK about picking him up UNLESS you were "the chosen one"... This bird had to be stick handled, and you had to be ready to drop the stick if he went CHARGE... after your face.

Take him OUT of his house. OVER TO MY HOUSE. Using a stick, and he steps up just fine, and doesn't attack anyone...

Why?! "Amazon Territorialism." Defend the nest. Defend the chosen one...

At my house there was no territory that he had claimed as HIS to defend, and therefore, like flicking a switch, the bad behaviors stopped as suddenly as they started.

A day or two later, the bird was back home, and back to his old sweet self....
when the hormones calmed down.

So wait it out, and it's probably fine. Move him to a playstand in another room where he can't see "the nest" for a day or two. See if that does it.

 

[mh434]

Thanks, Birdman...that's actually do-able! We have a friend with a large flock of her own, and I'm sure she'd be happy to accommodate Sammy for a couple of days to "reboot" him. After his vet visit (he's there now), I'll make plans for that!!

 

[mh434]

So - Sammy had his visit with our avian vet yesterday. Overall, the vet declared him to be an outrageously healthy, strong bird. He is, though, overweight, at 620 grams. We've suspected this, as he has...um..."cleavage".

It will take a week or so to get the results of the blood tests, DNA, etc., so I'm nervous about the results, and where we go from there...

 

[Birdman666]

When you say cleavage, would those be man-tits as in fat amazon... or is Sammy really a Samantha... ?!

Sallybird is in "courting me" mode right now, so we are at the height of hormones...

I wouldn't stress. The test results so far show your bird is healthy and,,, well... FAT.... Errr... uuummm.... A "healthy eater" (not to be mistaken for eating healthy.)

In other words: Typical amazon, with hormonal challenges...

 

[fowlstack]

Good news so far..hope it continues

Sent from my SM-T337T using Tapatalk

 

[mh434]

Well, I got the results of everything but the DNA sexing back from the vet.

He says that, due to the length of time this has been going on (almost a year, non-stop), Sammy isn't hormonal, so that's not the source of his extreme aggression. He doesn't believe that changing habitat, Lupron injections, etc. will have any affect at all.

It seems that Sammy is no longer bonded to anyone in our household and views us all as threats, to be attacked as opportunity permits, and that this is not likely to change.

**I should add that when I say "attacks" referring to Sammy, I don't mean nipping, hissing, etc., I mean emergency ward visits, sutures, etc. Once he latches on, he keeps biting deeper, wrenching back and forth, trying to tear off pieces of flesh. I have several permanent scars from the past few months trying to interact with him.**

The vet is suggesting re-homing, in the hopes Sammy will bond with someone new. They're offering to assist in finding him a new home, although with a super-aggressive Amazon, this may be difficult. The alternative is to keep him locked in his cage 24/7, for our protection & that of the rest of our flock. This isn't an option to me, as it seems like torture for an Amazon.

I'm devastated.

 

[Kentuckienne]

You have nothing to lose by sending him to a time-out in a different place. If someone can foster him for a short time, then you rearrange the house while he's gone, maybe even paint the cage or change it in some way, so when he gets back its not a place he recognizes and defends but is slightly off-balance...then while he's in the uncertain phase back home reinforce firm boundaries and socializing? He will either snap out of his mental state or not.

Then again, I have heard of some parrots who develop an almost instinctual hatred of people. It's probably just as painful for them as for the humans, and they might be happier in an aviary. It might not be a good idea for them to reproduce and pass the aggressive genes along, but living in a flock of their own kind might give them a good life. Sammy could be neutered, I think, it would involve some risk but the consequences aren't as bad as being locked in a cage forever. It's a difficult decision whatever you do, with no clear right and wrong. You genuinely care for his well-being, and I trust that whatever you decide to do, you will be acting out of kindness and love. You see him the most so you are best qualified to decide. If you rehome him to someone he bonds with and keep in touch in case the behaviors resurface, if you try a temporary time out, if you put him with a flock, all you can do is make the best guess you can and let things go as they will. We can't control everything, and this isn't a problem you caused or a problem you have the power to solve. Do what seems best - EllenD's suggestions would be easy to try with nothing to lose if they don't work. Ditto for Birdman666's time out advice. Then you will have done your best to do right by the poor guy, and if he still hates people then he just hates people. He is who he is. I wish I had some better way to express my admiration for your dedication and for the steadfast love you have shown to Sammy.

 

[Birdman666]

That is "dark ages" advice if you ask me...

WHEN I GOT MY SALLYBIRD SHE COULD NOT BE HANDLED WITHOUT A TOWEL, AND SHE HAD NOT BEEN OUTSIDE OF HER CAGE IN TWO YEARS!!!

The solution for the bird NOT BEING BONDED TO ANYONE ANYMORE is to (1) short clip so the bird cannot fly/divebomb/attack anyone. THEN GO BACK TO SQUARE ONE... START OVER AND RE-BOND WITH THE BIRD....

If you re-home the bird?! That is going to be what happens anyway - and that is how they form bonds with the new person.

PARROT TRAINING IS A LIFE LONG THING AND SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO START OVER FROM SQUARE ONE...

This bird needs to be handled more. He's become cage bound and territorial. Changes in scenery, like outside time once he's short clipped will do wonders for his disposition... make life fun and interesting again for him, and he will respond to that...

THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, AND I KNOW THAT FOR A FACT BECAUSE I'VE FREAKING DONE IT A FEW DOZEN TIMES OR MORE... !!!!

The vet will help find a new home for your bird if you sign it over to him?! What's his cut of the rehoming fee I wonder... ?! Makes me suspicious...

I'd short clip, give him a change of scenery, move the cage around, get him out to another part of the house where he can't see the cage, bird boing on a hanger works great for this, and basically start over from basic step up/no bite training to these are your boundaries bird... If you don't like it, take it up with Mr. Towel...

THAT'S HOW IT'S DONE!!!

 

[mh434]

Well, I haven't given up yet. It's difficult at the moment, as I'm away at work during all of the daylight hours. I have no idea if it will help, but I'm going to try toweling him & taking him to a bedroom, away from his cage & the rest of the flock, for a period of time each day. It may be late in the evening, as that's the only time I have. I'm going to try going "outside the box". I may have to wear chain mail & a hockey mask to do it, but I'll try.

It's like having a pitbull that attacks anyone who comes near it, and will even bypass food & treats to bite anyone that offers them. Where do you start?

As far as our vet's offer to help re-home Sammy is concerned, it's made solely out of genuine empathy and altruism. He has nothing to gain by passing on names of people who might be willing to take Sammy on, and his only concern is for Sammy's welfare, our safety, and that of the rest of our flock. We have known him for many years, and he is truly above reproach - he loves animals, particularly birds, above all else.

Anyway, I do appreciate everyone's help! Pray that I find a way...