RIP Cheddar :(

I forgot to ask or didn't see any reference to this, and I hate to ask it, but did you get a necropsy done? Just for the sake of the rest of your flock...I honestly don't think this was an Avian viral disease such as PDD or PBFD, simply due to the Chedder's obvious neurological issues that wreak of bad-breeding/hand-raising, but you have to be safe with your other birds...And you never, ever know, especially with a young bird who came from a questionable to horrible breeder and then lived in a pet shop like Chedder did...I hope that it's nothing that could/can effect the rest of your birds...


Hey EllenD- they said it was PDD, but PDD is neurological, so you weren't incorrect in noticing the neurological aspects.

A&M Researchers Confirm Cause of Proventricular Dilatation Disease - Texas A&M Veterinary Medicine & Biomedical Sciences
 
Update: I just wanted to clarify something- I thought that f10 killed ABV/PDD, and although it kills parvo, staph and PBFD, I am having trouble verifying this. I know it is safe and heaby-duty, but I didn't want to lead you astray. It probably does, but I need to verify first.
 
:(


:( :(
 
Update: I just wanted to clarify something- I thought that f10 killed ABV/PDD, and although it kills parvo, staph and PBFD, I am having trouble verifying this. I know it is safe and heaby-duty, but I didn't want to lead you astray. It probably does, but I need to verify first.

I don't know the answer to this, but I do know that F10SC doesn't kill certain reptilian parasites/diseases, so it's possible.

And I didn't see the diagnosis of PDD written anywhere, that explains quite a bit. Poor little girl...
 
If you want to be certain, you could call an avian vet and see what they use to clean up after sick birds. Find out how long it is viable after mixing, the dilution ratio, how long it must sit, whether rinsing is needed and whether birds can be around when you use it.



You could also email the people who make F10. Like I said, it is a pretty amazing disinfectant, but ABV is not very well understood, so it is possible that not enough research has been done...
 
I am so sorry for your loss, YUMgrinder. I hadn't seen this thread until this morning on the way to work. My heart goes out to you and your flock. I could see from your posts how very much Cheddar meant to you. But as so many here have so beautifully expressed, Cheddar's life was greatly enriched by your presence in it. Don't diminish that in any way, shape or form by taking any of the blame for her passing. You did all that you could.

I can speak to you on this with a deep understanding of where you're coming from, because my first ekkie, Bixby, also died of the manifestation of PDD wherein it attacks the autonomic nervous system... at a year and a half... after a bloodiest that he was just too weak to endure. (I was a little more fortunate in that Bixby didn't pass until we'd gotten home around 3 or so hours later, but in all other respects an uncanny resemblance.)

Like you, I blamed myself for consenting to the blood draw. "I should've known he was too weak." Or ""If I only waited until he was stronger." But the truth is, we both did everything that we could for our birds. If either of us hadn't consented to that blood draw, and our birds passed anyway, we'd be second-guessing that as well. Wondering if an answer could've been found had we only had the courage at the time to allow that test. See the downward spiraling path that kind of thinking leads us toward?

No.That's not what Bixby would have wanted for me, and it's certainly not what Cheddar would've wanted for you. Though her time was short, she made sure to leave you with a lifetime's worth of memories to treasure and cherish. Because of you, she was able to have a life beyond the confines of a "hospital closet" in some pet store. Because of you, she got to LIVE rather than simply survive and endure. And in return, she loved you with all that she had. Every moment she spent nestled along your neck or in your lap was her gift to you. The gift of her love and gratitude for her knight in shining armor who passed all the healthy and perky birds and instead, against all odds, chose the sweet little one quarantined away in what amounted to a closet.

Take this time to grieve, my friend. Lord knows I did. But as time passes, allow yourself to focus less on the pain of her passing and more upon the joy that she brought into your life.

And another thing. I know that you are worried that the rest of your flock is now facing the inevitable. I'd like to share with you some of what I wound up learning about PDD in the wake of Bixby's passing. The information I've gleaned was partly through exhaustive research, though largely from in-depth discussions with 2 veterinarians, one of whom was a pioneer in PDD research when it was first being classified, and the other who continues to research avian disease pathology even as he treats parrots in his capacity as a CAV.

First thing, the one mode of transmission that seems to be universally agreed upon is vertical (Parent-to-child) transmission. This is almost certainly what occurred in Cheddar's (and Bixby's) case. She was likely born with one of the strains of ABV (Avian Borna Virus), which lacks any clinical signs until it comes into contact with an as yet unidentified catalyzing agent that triggers the progression to clinical PDD (Proventricular Dilation Disease). That mystery catalyst is seen as a potential key to defeating PDD. If it could be identified, it could conceivably be blocked... thus keeping ABV in its relatively harmless state.

Okay, so far as horizontal (bird-to-bird) transmission goes, PDD is nowhere near as contagious as PBFD or Pacheco's or any number of other avian diseases. The extent to which it is transmissible, however, is not truly known. Birds have been housed together for years without infecting the other. (And I don't mean carrier status. These are cases in which the companion birds were necropsied after their natural deaths and shown to be free of PDD and ABV.) But it is believed that PDD is transmissible via feces, so cage environs should be kept as clean as is possible. This part is important, because I don't want you thinking that your flocks' infection is a given. It most certainly is not. (Maya never contracted Bixby's variant of PDD. I once believed she had a different type, but I no longer think so.)

Which brings us to testing. Your vet said that you can't test for PDD, which isn't strictly true... though I understand why he/she said it. First, the only blood-test available for this is a test for ABV. Sounds good on the face of it, since ABV is the pre-cursor to PDD. But it turns out that there are around 9 different strains of ABV... only 2 of which have the potential to progress into PDD. The other 7 don't have any measurable effect whatsoever. And unfortunately, the test can't tell you which strain of ABV, if any, it has detected in your bird. Further complicating matters is the fact that some 40 or so percent of pet birds are infected with one of said 9 strains. (Obviously, most of that 40% has the 7 "benign" strains.) And then, as if that all didn't make it tough enough, the test also has the limitation of only being able to detect ABV when it's actively shedding.

So in short, even if the test is given when the bird is actively shedding and tests positive, all it tells you for certain is that your bird is one of the 40%. And if the test comes back negative, that still doesn't tell you much, as it might be a false negative. The test does hold value if there is a preponderance of evidence, however. Like as supporting evidence along with certain clinical symptoms, or with an x-ray.

Speaking of x-rays, I consider them one of the most important tests for the autonomic nervous system variant of PDD. If it has progressed to a clinical stage, enlargement of the proventriculus would be a huge red flag. As would the presence of undigested food particles throughout the digestive tract. (The main complication of this form of PDD is an enlarged proventriculus, which means the walls of that "stomach" can't reach the food passing through to break it down. This is why food is excreted undigested and the bird loses weight. Bixby went from an average of around 420-30 down to 295 or so.)

There are other more invasive tests that can be performed, such as a crop biopsy, but even that can be hit or miss depending on where the lesions have spread to at the time of the procedure. There's also another kind of biopsy, even more invasive, but the specifics of that one escape me at the moment.

The only 100% certain way to confirm PDD is with a necropsy, unfortunately. But a preponderance of evidence can bring you to a state of relative certainty. In the meantime, however, I'd suggest being VERY thorough with their hygiene. Clean up every bit of poop in any communal areas. And don't allow them to feed one another.

And lastly, if it does turn out that they are positive for PDD (which I honestly doubt they will be), it is important to know that early detection can allow them to lead long lives. It can be managed to a greater extent than PBFD could, as long as one is vigilant against flare-ups. You're alerted to the possibilities, now. If anything jumped off, you'd have an idea of what might be going on.

I'm sorry this post wound up being so long. I usually try not to be so long-winded, but I wished somebody could've told me this stuff a few years back. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to either post here or hit me on a pm.

And again, I'm so deeply sorry for your loss.
 
Thank you Stephen (Anansi) for a magnificent post. I hope the reduced likelihood of horizontal (bird-to-bird) contagion gives Jason a bit of peace and hope for the remaining flock.
 
I'm pretty sure that knowing that some fellow parrot-loving soul have "been there, done that" can be a bit soothing for the heart. And, knowing that it's not all gone.
 
I'm glad you wrote this opinion and thank you for doing so...I don't really like to ever "question" a Vet's opinion, especially a CAV or Avian Specialist such as this (I have absolutely NO PROBLEM correcting an Exotic or General Vet who is too lazy or uneducated/inexperienced to run a single diagnostic test, even simply microscopy on a fecal sample, but rather just looks at the bird, literally just "looks" at the bird and then prescribes an antibiotic "just in-case" or on a guess, that drives me literally mad)...However, the odds of Cheddar actually testing positive for PDD at her age are slim to none.

***And though there are MANY Avian Viral diseases/infections that present with Neurological issues in their advanced-stages (such as PDD, PBFD, and even just a simple Psittacosis Chlamydia bacterial infection in it's advanced stage), when I looked at Cheddar visually, and then saw her normal behaviors and her every-day, normal personality, and combined that with the history that YumGrinder knew, when I earlier stated that I thought she was suffering from very severe "Neurological Issues", I was not at all referring to Neurological Issues resulting from a physical illness/infection in it's advanced stages ...I was referring to severe, permanent Neurological issues/damage due to bad-breeding practices including Force-Weaning, not being given the opportunity to proper fledge, not being given proper nutrition by the breeder/hand-feeder during her early life when both her physical body was growing and developing and her psychological/mental growth and development could be greatly stalled or stunted. So I was not thinking of or going down the path of PDD/ABV or any other Avian Viral Disease that causes "Neurological" damage/issues/behavioral changes in it's advanced stages...

It's obvious that Cheddar was hand-raised/hand-fed. What isn't known is at what age she was pulled from the nest-box or anything else that followed from that point forward. It's been well-established that even pulling a baby bird away from it's mother before the age of at least 2 weeks-old can result in all kinds of physical and psychological/neurological health issues, specifically an under-developed Immune System, as they are robbed of necessary natural antibodies from their mother's "crop milk", for lack of a better description of what it is (no, they do not produce actual "milk", but it's exactly the same principle as crop-milk, colostrum, etc.

So, all of that being said, it's quite common for a bird like Cheddar to have not only an under-developed Immune System, opening them up to chronic infections, but more importantly and more commonly their physical bodies are actually "under-developed" in-general, as well as their minds. This is where the term "perpetual baby" comes into play with badly-bred/hand-raised birds. And it's quite accurate. But what we often forget with birds that are "perpetual babies" due to bad-breeding practices is the effect that these bad-breeding practices have on their physical health throughout their entire lives.

I would have bet that if Cheddar had actually died of an acute-illness/viral infection/disease, it would have been from advanced-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia, as her neurological behaviors matched exactly with end-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia...However, apparently the necropsy results were found to be negative for Psittacosis Chlamydia (any strain I'm guess, as there are I believe 3 or 4 different bacterium responsible). So my questions now are in-regards to what the necropsy showed as far as any nutritional deficiencies that Cheddar may have been suffering from...It's very common for badly-bred birds in-general to suffer from nutritional absorption diseases/conditions that make it impossible for them to ever absorb enough of certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc., OR that make it impossible for their bodies to manufacture certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc. (specifically Digesting Enzymes as a whole).

****The bottom-line may be that Cheddar's body just didn't develop properly/fully due to bad-breeding/hand-feeding/weaning practices, and in-addition to the obvious outward neurological/psychological behavioral issues she suffered from (which are the tip-offs to the possibility of an underlying physical deficiency condition/syndrome), her body was not ever able to properly manufacture or absorb vital "nutrition" (as a whole, generic term), and that she finally succumb to either a deficiency or deficiencies, or due to a deficiency or deficiencies her body was constantly leeching needed but lacking nutrition from itself (bones, muscles, vital organs, etc.), which finally killed what little immune system she had in the first place, and she succumb to secondary infections...OR maybe she did contract an uncommon acute Avian Virus simply due to her non-existent immune system...Once again, think of that situation in-terms of people who die from AIDS; I don't know that anyone has actually ever died from "AIDS" itself, rather, they die from from infections and diseases that are secondary to the AIDS virus diminishing their immune systems...
 
Thank you Stephen (Anansi) for a magnificent post. I hope the reduced likelihood of horizontal (bird-to-bird) contagion gives Jason a bit of peace and hope for the remaining flock.

Agreed. Stephen has a unique and very knowledgeable opinion on this, and am so thankful for his post. I also hope it brings some peace and hope to Jason.
 
I'm glad you wrote this opinion and thank you for doing so...I don't really like to ever "question" a Vet's opinion, especially a CAV or Avian Specialist such as this (I have absolutely NO PROBLEM correcting an Exotic or General Vet who is too lazy or uneducated/inexperienced to run a single diagnostic test, even simply microscopy on a fecal sample, but rather just looks at the bird, literally just "looks" at the bird and then prescribes an antibiotic "just in-case" or on a guess, that drives me literally mad)...However, the odds of Cheddar actually testing positive for PDD at her age are slim to none.

Stephen is unavoidably away from the forum today, but asked me to address a possible misunderstanding of his post.
He was not questioning the results of the necropsy, and in fact agreed with the vet's diagnosis of PDD due to the lesions found. He wanted to get the correct facts out about the different strains of the disease & to reassure Jason with the facts about transmission and ways to limit exposure in the unlikely case that one of his other birds does have it.
 
Im so sorry for your loss. Just adopted a GCC and named him cheddar. Never thought anyone else would name their bird cheddar as well. Hopefully our cheddar can live just as long and recieves just as much love as your cheddar did
 
I am so sorry for your loss, YUMgrinder. I hadn't seen this thread until this morning on the way to work. My heart goes out to you and your flock. I could see from your posts how very much Cheddar meant to you. But as so many here have so beautifully expressed, Cheddar's life was greatly enriched by your presence in it. Don't diminish that in any way, shape or form by taking any of the blame for her passing. You did all that you could.

I can speak to you on this with a deep understanding of where you're coming from, because my first ekkie, Bixby, also died of the manifestation of PDD wherein it attacks the autonomic nervous system... at a year and a half... after a bloodiest that he was just too weak to endure. (I was a little more fortunate in that Bixby didn't pass until we'd gotten home around 3 or so hours later, but in all other respects an uncanny resemblance.)

Like you, I blamed myself for consenting to the blood draw. "I should've known he was too weak." Or ""If I only waited until he was stronger." But the truth is, we both did everything that we could for our birds. If either of us hadn't consented to that blood draw, and our birds passed anyway, we'd be second-guessing that as well. Wondering if an answer could've been found had we only had the courage at the time to allow that test. See the downward spiraling path that kind of thinking leads us toward?

No.That's not what Bixby would have wanted for me, and it's certainly not what Cheddar would've wanted for you. Though her time was short, she made sure to leave you with a lifetime's worth of memories to treasure and cherish. Because of you, she was able to have a life beyond the confines of a "hospital closet" in some pet store. Because of you, she got to LIVE rather than simply survive and endure. And in return, she loved you with all that she had. Every moment she spent nestled along your neck or in your lap was her gift to you. The gift of her love and gratitude for her knight in shining armor who passed all the healthy and perky birds and instead, against all odds, chose the sweet little one quarantined away in what amounted to a closet.

Take this time to grieve, my friend. Lord knows I did. But as time passes, allow yourself to focus less on the pain of her passing and more upon the joy that she brought into your life.

And another thing. I know that you are worried that the rest of your flock is now facing the inevitable. I'd like to share with you some of what I wound up learning about PDD in the wake of Bixby's passing. The information I've gleaned was partly through exhaustive research, though largely from in-depth discussions with 2 veterinarians, one of whom was a pioneer in PDD research when it was first being classified, and the other who continues to research avian disease pathology even as he treats parrots in his capacity as a CAV.

First thing, the one mode of transmission that seems to be universally agreed upon is vertical (Parent-to-child) transmission. This is almost certainly what occurred in Cheddar's (and Bixby's) case. She was likely born with one of the strains of ABV (Avian Borna Virus), which lacks any clinical signs until it comes into contact with an as yet unidentified catalyzing agent that triggers the progression to clinical PDD (Proventricular Dilation Disease). That mystery catalyst is seen as a potential key to defeating PDD. If it could be identified, it could conceivably be blocked... thus keeping ABV in its relatively harmless state.

Okay, so far as horizontal (bird-to-bird) transmission goes, PDD is nowhere near as contagious as PBFD or Pacheco's or any number of other avian diseases. The extent to which it is transmissible, however, is not truly known. Birds have been housed together for years without infecting the other. (And I don't mean carrier status. These are cases in which the companion birds were necropsied after their natural deaths and shown to be free of PDD and ABV.) But it is believed that PDD is transmissible via feces, so cage environs should be kept as clean as is possible. This part is important, because I don't want you thinking that your flocks' infection is a given. It most certainly is not. (Maya never contracted Bixby's variant of PDD. I once believed she had a different type, but I no longer think so.)

Which brings us to testing. Your vet said that you can't test for PDD, which isn't strictly true... though I understand why he/she said it. First, the only blood-test available for this is a test for ABV. Sounds good on the face of it, since ABV is the pre-cursor to PDD. But it turns out that there are around 9 different strains of ABV... only 2 of which have the potential to progress into PDD. The other 7 don't have any measurable effect whatsoever. And unfortunately, the test can't tell you which strain of ABV, if any, it has detected in your bird. Further complicating matters is the fact that some 40 or so percent of pet birds are infected with one of said 9 strains. (Obviously, most of that 40% has the 7 "benign" strains.) And then, as if that all didn't make it tough enough, the test also has the limitation of only being able to detect ABV when it's actively shedding.

So in short, even if the test is given when the bird is actively shedding and tests positive, all it tells you for certain is that your bird is one of the 40%. And if the test comes back negative, that still doesn't tell you much, as it might be a false negative. The test does hold value if there is a preponderance of evidence, however. Like as supporting evidence along with certain clinical symptoms, or with an x-ray.

Speaking of x-rays, I consider them one of the most important tests for the autonomic nervous system variant of PDD. If it has progressed to a clinical stage, enlargement of the proventriculus would be a huge red flag. As would the presence of undigested food particles throughout the digestive tract. (The main complication of this form of PDD is an enlarged proventriculus, which means the walls of that "stomach" can't reach the food passing through to break it down. This is why food is excreted undigested and the bird loses weight. Bixby went from an average of around 420-30 down to 295 or so.)

There are other more invasive tests that can be performed, such as a crop biopsy, but even that can be hit or miss depending on where the lesions have spread to at the time of the procedure. There's also another kind of biopsy, even more invasive, but the specifics of that one escape me at the moment.

The only 100% certain way to confirm PDD is with a necropsy, unfortunately. But a preponderance of evidence can bring you to a state of relative certainty. In the meantime, however, I'd suggest being VERY thorough with their hygiene. Clean up every bit of poop in any communal areas. And don't allow them to feed one another.

And lastly, if it does turn out that they are positive for PDD (which I honestly doubt they will be), it is important to know that early detection can allow them to lead long lives. It can be managed to a greater extent than PBFD could, as long as one is vigilant against flare-ups. You're alerted to the possibilities, now. If anything jumped off, you'd have an idea of what might be going on.

I'm sorry this post wound up being so long. I usually try not to be so long-winded, but I wished somebody could've told me this stuff a few years back. If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to either post here or hit me on a pm.

And again, I'm so deeply sorry for your loss.

I just wanted to say I did not miss your post, or anyone else's. I thank you all for everything, the info, the love, the compassion. I will probably see about getting the flock tested and I am glad none of the birds have any symptoms that I seen in cheddar. She would eat and eat and eat and still would lose weight, and I never saw any undigested food in her poop. We cleaned up everything we could, but my tiels love to forage, and they will get under the cage to pick up dropped food. I would hope that they know the difference between poop and food. I'll just keep an eye on everyones weight and hope for the best. Thank you all again. thank you.
 
I'm glad you wrote this opinion and thank you for doing so...I don't really like to ever "question" a Vet's opinion, especially a CAV or Avian Specialist such as this (I have absolutely NO PROBLEM correcting an Exotic or General Vet who is too lazy or uneducated/inexperienced to run a single diagnostic test, even simply microscopy on a fecal sample, but rather just looks at the bird, literally just "looks" at the bird and then prescribes an antibiotic "just in-case" or on a guess, that drives me literally mad)...However, the odds of Cheddar actually testing positive for PDD at her age are slim to none.

***And though there are MANY Avian Viral diseases/infections that present with Neurological issues in their advanced-stages (such as PDD, PBFD, and even just a simple Psittacosis Chlamydia bacterial infection in it's advanced stage), when I looked at Cheddar visually, and then saw her normal behaviors and her every-day, normal personality, and combined that with the history that YumGrinder knew, when I earlier stated that I thought she was suffering from very severe "Neurological Issues", I was not at all referring to Neurological Issues resulting from a physical illness/infection in it's advanced stages ...I was referring to severe, permanent Neurological issues/damage due to bad-breeding practices including Force-Weaning, not being given the opportunity to proper fledge, not being given proper nutrition by the breeder/hand-feeder during her early life when both her physical body was growing and developing and her psychological/mental growth and development could be greatly stalled or stunted. So I was not thinking of or going down the path of PDD/ABV or any other Avian Viral Disease that causes "Neurological" damage/issues/behavioral changes in it's advanced stages...

It's obvious that Cheddar was hand-raised/hand-fed. What isn't known is at what age she was pulled from the nest-box or anything else that followed from that point forward. It's been well-established that even pulling a baby bird away from it's mother before the age of at least 2 weeks-old can result in all kinds of physical and psychological/neurological health issues, specifically an under-developed Immune System, as they are robbed of necessary natural antibodies from their mother's "crop milk", for lack of a better description of what it is (no, they do not produce actual "milk", but it's exactly the same principle as crop-milk, colostrum, etc.

So, all of that being said, it's quite common for a bird like Cheddar to have not only an under-developed Immune System, opening them up to chronic infections, but more importantly and more commonly their physical bodies are actually "under-developed" in-general, as well as their minds. This is where the term "perpetual baby" comes into play with badly-bred/hand-raised birds. And it's quite accurate. But what we often forget with birds that are "perpetual babies" due to bad-breeding practices is the effect that these bad-breeding practices have on their physical health throughout their entire lives.

I would have bet that if Cheddar had actually died of an acute-illness/viral infection/disease, it would have been from advanced-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia, as her neurological behaviors matched exactly with end-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia...However, apparently the necropsy results were found to be negative for Psittacosis Chlamydia (any strain I'm guess, as there are I believe 3 or 4 different bacterium responsible). So my questions now are in-regards to what the necropsy showed as far as any nutritional deficiencies that Cheddar may have been suffering from...It's very common for badly-bred birds in-general to suffer from nutritional absorption diseases/conditions that make it impossible for them to ever absorb enough of certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc., OR that make it impossible for their bodies to manufacture certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc. (specifically Digesting Enzymes as a whole).

****The bottom-line may be that Cheddar's body just didn't develop properly/fully due to bad-breeding/hand-feeding/weaning practices, and in-addition to the obvious outward neurological/psychological behavioral issues she suffered from (which are the tip-offs to the possibility of an underlying physical deficiency condition/syndrome), her body was not ever able to properly manufacture or absorb vital "nutrition" (as a whole, generic term), and that she finally succumb to either a deficiency or deficiencies, or due to a deficiency or deficiencies her body was constantly leeching needed but lacking nutrition from itself (bones, muscles, vital organs, etc.), which finally killed what little immune system she had in the first place, and she succumb to secondary infections...OR maybe she did contract an uncommon acute Avian Virus simply due to her non-existent immune system...Once again, think of that situation in-terms of people who die from AIDS; I don't know that anyone has actually ever died from "AIDS" itself, rather, they die from from infections and diseases that are secondary to the AIDS virus diminishing their immune systems...

My thought from the very start was some neurological issues, including being forced weaned as a baby. She was always dirpy so I figured that was part of the package, and her personality. Whether mistreated as a baby or not, I firmly believed that she was healthy, just had an issue with her weight, which I had addressed and in the past got her to gain weight. But she was never exactly the right size for a nanday, again, part of the package and not an illness... if that makes sense. She did go downhill fast though, and I failed to recognize not only was she struggling with the body she was given, but also this illness. I'm not entirely sure if she was always sick, or a combination of sick and brain issues. She couldn't even come close to flying, she would try and get strong but she probably would have never flown. What convinced me finally that she needed to see a vet, was when her loud calls became raspy and quiet. sometimes she would try and call but nothing came out. She was much weaker than normal. I wonder if I had taken her in just a couple weeks earlier if she could've pulled through the blood draw and got some needed meds. But like you said, maybe they wouldn't have even known anyways and sent me home with cold medicine, or parrot equivalent. I was in the army, and when sick, they just throw cough drops and sudifed(?) at you. And a "suck it up buttercup" poster.
 
I'm so sorry YUM! I'm only just seeing your post. May she fly with angels now. So many kind words have been sent your way. Well deserved. You did the best you could with a small beast the cosmos/universe/higher spirit (whatever you want to call it) entrusted you to take care of in her in her short life because she needed you. You did your service. Well done. :-)

Sent from my LGL64VL using Tapatalk
 
I'm glad you wrote this opinion and thank you for doing so...I don't really like to ever "question" a Vet's opinion, especially a CAV or Avian Specialist such as this (I have absolutely NO PROBLEM correcting an Exotic or General Vet who is too lazy or uneducated/inexperienced to run a single diagnostic test, even simply microscopy on a fecal sample, but rather just looks at the bird, literally just "looks" at the bird and then prescribes an antibiotic "just in-case" or on a guess, that drives me literally mad)...However, the odds of Cheddar actually testing positive for PDD at her age are slim to none.

***And though there are MANY Avian Viral diseases/infections that present with Neurological issues in their advanced-stages (such as PDD, PBFD, and even just a simple Psittacosis Chlamydia bacterial infection in it's advanced stage), when I looked at Cheddar visually, and then saw her normal behaviors and her every-day, normal personality, and combined that with the history that YumGrinder knew, when I earlier stated that I thought she was suffering from very severe "Neurological Issues", I was not at all referring to Neurological Issues resulting from a physical illness/infection in it's advanced stages ...I was referring to severe, permanent Neurological issues/damage due to bad-breeding practices including Force-Weaning, not being given the opportunity to proper fledge, not being given proper nutrition by the breeder/hand-feeder during her early life when both her physical body was growing and developing and her psychological/mental growth and development could be greatly stalled or stunted. So I was not thinking of or going down the path of PDD/ABV or any other Avian Viral Disease that causes "Neurological" damage/issues/behavioral changes in it's advanced stages...

It's obvious that Cheddar was hand-raised/hand-fed. What isn't known is at what age she was pulled from the nest-box or anything else that followed from that point forward. It's been well-established that even pulling a baby bird away from it's mother before the age of at least 2 weeks-old can result in all kinds of physical and psychological/neurological health issues, specifically an under-developed Immune System, as they are robbed of necessary natural antibodies from their mother's "crop milk", for lack of a better description of what it is (no, they do not produce actual "milk", but it's exactly the same principle as crop-milk, colostrum, etc.

So, all of that being said, it's quite common for a bird like Cheddar to have not only an under-developed Immune System, opening them up to chronic infections, but more importantly and more commonly their physical bodies are actually "under-developed" in-general, as well as their minds. This is where the term "perpetual baby" comes into play with badly-bred/hand-raised birds. And it's quite accurate. But what we often forget with birds that are "perpetual babies" due to bad-breeding practices is the effect that these bad-breeding practices have on their physical health throughout their entire lives.

I would have bet that if Cheddar had actually died of an acute-illness/viral infection/disease, it would have been from advanced-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia, as her neurological behaviors matched exactly with end-stage Psittacosis Chlamydia...However, apparently the necropsy results were found to be negative for Psittacosis Chlamydia (any strain I'm guess, as there are I believe 3 or 4 different bacterium responsible). So my questions now are in-regards to what the necropsy showed as far as any nutritional deficiencies that Cheddar may have been suffering from...It's very common for badly-bred birds in-general to suffer from nutritional absorption diseases/conditions that make it impossible for them to ever absorb enough of certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc., OR that make it impossible for their bodies to manufacture certain, specific vitamins, minerals, enzymes, etc. (specifically Digesting Enzymes as a whole).

****The bottom-line may be that Cheddar's body just didn't develop properly/fully due to bad-breeding/hand-feeding/weaning practices, and in-addition to the obvious outward neurological/psychological behavioral issues she suffered from (which are the tip-offs to the possibility of an underlying physical deficiency condition/syndrome), her body was not ever able to properly manufacture or absorb vital "nutrition" (as a whole, generic term), and that she finally succumb to either a deficiency or deficiencies, or due to a deficiency or deficiencies her body was constantly leeching needed but lacking nutrition from itself (bones, muscles, vital organs, etc.), which finally killed what little immune system she had in the first place, and she succumb to secondary infections...OR maybe she did contract an uncommon acute Avian Virus simply due to her non-existent immune system...Once again, think of that situation in-terms of people who die from AIDS; I don't know that anyone has actually ever died from "AIDS" itself, rather, they die from from infections and diseases that are secondary to the AIDS virus diminishing their immune systems...

My thought from the very start was some neurological issues, including being forced weaned as a baby. She was always dirpy so I figured that was part of the package, and her personality. Whether mistreated as a baby or not, I firmly believed that she was healthy, just had an issue with her weight, which I had addressed and in the past got her to gain weight. But she was never exactly the right size for a nanday, again, part of the package and not an illness... if that makes sense. She did go downhill fast though, and I failed to recognize not only was she struggling with the body she was given, but also this illness. I'm not entirely sure if she was always sick, or a combination of sick and brain issues. She couldn't even come close to flying, she would try and get strong but she probably would have never flown. What convinced me finally that she needed to see a vet, was when her loud calls became raspy and quiet. sometimes she would try and call but nothing came out. She was much weaker than normal. I wonder if I had taken her in just a couple weeks earlier if she could've pulled through the blood draw and got some needed meds. But like you said, maybe they wouldn't have even known anyways and sent me home with cold medicine, or parrot equivalent. I was in the army, and when sick, they just throw cough drops and sudifed(?) at you. And a "suck it up buttercup" poster.


Yep, it's so difficult sometimes "not ever knowing", even though "knowing" won't change the outcome in any way...I know exactly how you feel. And it's also extremely easy to blame yourself or ask the "what ifs", like "what if I had done this, what if I had done that, what if I had taken her in a week or two earlier"...I've been there several times myself, not with any birds of my own, but at the Rescue, I have second-guessed myself, our CAV, other employees who have made decisions, and I think it's just a normal part of the mourning process, as well as the healing process...Just know that nothing you are thinking or feeling is at all wrong, it's human...

Cheddar was a sick little bird, whatever the cause or the actual problem or problems were, she was dealt a horrible hand right from day one, by no fault of her own, and that just sucks. And while you'll probably not ever really know what the exact problems were, what we all know for sure and what I hope that you know for sure is that the only reason that she had any good in her life and any will to keep living for as long as she did was because of you and the love and care that you gave her...She loved you dearly, and she knew that you loved her and were doing everything you could for her and to make her better and live the best life she possibly could...Birds know man, they know just like people know. And when you strip-away all the science and the medicine and the big words and the list of possible diagnoses and treatments, the best thing in the world that anyone could have done for Cheddar was exactly what you did, and that was to show her love and affection...
 
My GF lives with me, and we get her 3 kids half the week. When cheddar died I guess she didn't tell her 7 year old, and yesterday I was messing with the birds and she asked if she could hold cheddar :( :( :( I just said she was sick and died. I'm sad that the only parrot in my flock that would cuddle with the kids was cheddar and that's gone too. The wound has been reopened! WAAAAAAAAA
 
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Just when you thought it was safe... or at least a little safer!!

I still haven’t told my family we lost our GCC Baci and that happened in August... and we’ve been invited to my cousins house for a Christmas dinner... I’m considering not telling them at all cos it’ll just make me cry... the band-aid just keeps getting ripped off that wound bit by tiny bit!!
 
Just when you thought it was safe... or at least a little safer!!

I still haven’t told my family we lost our GCC Baci and that happened in August... and we’ve been invited to my cousins house for a Christmas dinner... I’m considering not telling them at all cos it’ll just make me cry... the band-aid just keeps getting ripped off that wound bit by tiny bit!!

RIGHT?! I don't like it either.
 

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