Bird Purchase Mistake - Help!!!

[fiddlejen]

Not familiar with conures, but at the risk of anthropomorphizing, perhaps Jasper prefers a transactional relationship at the moment. Distant companionship in exchange for food and safety. May change over time (hopefully short) with persistence and love.

That's actually what it has felt like all along - transactional. I hope it does change over time. I know I wouldn't be able to handle 20 years of a transactional relationship. And, why would he be like that in the first place? Anyone else have that kind of experience? I hope he connects to us. Little rays of hope but it's slow.

This is how my relationships with my birds felt at the beginning.

However I did Not come to them with any other expectations.

My budgies at the very beginning made it quite clear that, although they could not remove me from their little flock-of-two, I was nonetheless the UN-popular member of that flock. IF i was feeling especially sad they would sit quietly and comfort me. The moment I felt better, I got their cold shoulders again! Kinda how popular kids in a school, if they happen to be nice kids, may be kind to an unpopular kid When Needed. But that does not mean the unpopular kid is part of their group!

That's how my budgies were. THEY were obviously the popular birds, and I was the misfit they had to put up with.

After I'd had them for a month, I took them with me to visit some friends overnight. In the morning, my friends were already awake and peeking in at my budgies. I came down the stairs saying hello, and heard them making their normal morning noises. BUT. My friends who had been peeking in at them, were able to tell me, my budgies RESPONDED to ME! Well of course, I had not had any way of knowing that, until strangers were observing them. They actually WERE bonded to me!

In addition. I also did not FEEL the connection to my Sunny for quite a while after I had her. I knew I wanted her. And actually she clearly bonded to me and loved me right away. But despite the budgies I really didn't know much about birds yet. And also I chose her and knew I wanted her, even fell-in-love-with-her, yet I did not actually Love her --(although I told her i did!!)--or feel bonded to her, for a little while after I had her.

Neither of these are Really the same as for you. The budgies - I did not expect much from them. Although, their persistently telling me II was the UNpopular flock member was kinda getting to me. Sunny I expected to love, --and she loved me right away, she is a darling lovable bird-- and although it took a little while for my thoughts to sort themselves out with my emotions, there was not any questions about it, and I knew I would get there unquestionably.

But I just mention my experience only in that it makes sense with yours. You had higher expectations, know more about birds, and have a previous strong bond that you are missing. So of course your current Lack of a bond with this bird, you will feel it quite strongly.

 

[Laurasea]

Meg, you will find this interesting as it addresses early development and forced interaction at pet stores. I will try sbd link the site, that has . So some of Jasper issues could be learned hopelessness, and not having learned to make choices, to be self-directed

" It is impossible to know for sure whether a particular bird’s behavioural issues are due to this type of rearing or another cause entirely, but we can make the logical inference that abnormal development increases the incidence of abnormal behaviour. Clipped baby birds are often advertised as “hand-raised” or “tame”, but many of them are fearful and averse to human contact. The shortcut which circumvents socialising and training these birds is to physically disable them via wing clipping. Because they are unable to fly, they cannot escape a customer who wants to hold them regardless of how fearful they may be. When a bird is afraid, repeatedly forcing it to interact with us and removing all avenues of avoidance does not result in tameness or “bonding”; it results in learned helplessness. Learned helplessness is a condition where an animal or person is first confronted by inescapable stress or pain. Then, later on, even if it would be possible for them to escape the stress or pain, they don’t make any attempt to.19 Essentially, if we force a clipped bird to step up over and over, or if we pick it up off the ground every time it tries to flutter away, we are forcing it into a state of learned helplessness. It’s still afraid, but it has given up. This naturally leads to a more insecure, dependent bird who feels safe in a very limited range of situations"

It focuses on flight, but also shows pet stores , and early deprivation of choice and enrichment. And both are babies suffer from this. On the home page go to early development, or check out tgeir other articles.

https://parrotvolancy.com/wing-clipping-early-development/

 

[Jen5200]

I’ve been following your story but haven’t commented, because my experiences feel pretty different than yours. All of my birds came to me as adults, and from a variety of backgrounds (some with okay history, others not as much). I only want to say that I have built relationships with all of my conures, they didn’t come to me cuddly or even friendly really. I feel like I have a good close connection with each of my flock, but it was definitely built over time. It started transactionally with each of them, and I earned the relationship that I have with them and they have with me. None of them are perfect, they are all different - but they all love and trust me. I guess I just want to add that not every great relationship starts out with a quick love bond, some take longer - but are just as worthwhile. I absolutely support whatever you decide is best for your family and for Jasper, but wanted to offer my story as another perspective. You’re doing a great job with him, and I have nothing but respect for your desire to make sure that you are doing right by him.

 

[noodles123]

Not familiar with conures, but at the risk of anthropomorphizing, perhaps Jasper prefers a transactional relationship at the moment. Distant companionship in exchange for food and safety. May change over time (hopefully short) with persistence and love.

That's actually what it has felt like all along - transactional. I hope it does change over time. I know I wouldn't be able to handle 20 years of a transactional relationship. And, why would he be like that in the first place? Anyone else have that kind of experience? I hope he connects to us. Little rays of hope but it's slow.

This is how my relationships with my birds felt at the beginning.

However I did Not come to them with any other expectations.

My budgies at the very beginning made it quite clear that, although they could not remove me from their little flock-of-two, I was nonetheless the UN-popular member of that flock. IF i was feeling especially sad they would sit quietly and comfort me. The moment I felt better, I got their cold shoulders again! Kinda how popular kids in a school, if they happen to be nice kids, may be kind to an unpopular kid When Needed. But that does not mean the unpopular kid is part of their group!

That's how my budgies were. THEY were obviously the popular birds, and I was the misfit they had to put up with.

After I'd had them for a month, I took them with me to visit some friends overnight. In the morning, my friends were already awake and peeking in at my budgies. I came down the stairs saying hello, and heard them making their normal morning noises. BUT. My friends who had been peeking in at them, were able to tell me, my budgies RESPONDED to ME! Well of course, I had not had any way of knowing that, until strangers were observing them. They actually WERE bonded to me!

In addition. I also did not FEEL the connection to my Sunny for quite a while after I had her. I knew I wanted her. And actually she clearly bonded to me and loved me right away. But despite the budgies I really didn't know much about birds yet. And also I chose her and knew I wanted her, even fell-in-love-with-her, yet I did not actually Love her --(although I told her i did!!)--or feel bonded to her, for a little while after I had her.

Neither of these are Really the same as for you. The budgies - I did not expect much from them. Although, their persistently telling me II was the UNpopular flock member was kinda getting to me. Sunny I expected to love, --and she loved me right away, she is a darling lovable bird-- and although it took a little while for my thoughts to sort themselves out with my emotions, there was not any questions about it, and I knew I would get there unquestionably.

But I just mention my experience only in that it makes sense with yours. You had higher expectations, know more about birds, and have a previous strong bond that you are missing. So of course your current Lack of a bond with this bird, you will feel it quite strongly.

This is a good analogy-- When I first got Noodles, it was a lot like thinking I had basically married a popular kid from middle school who liked me one day, then hated me the next! lol

 

[MegZ]

Jasper update. I waited awhile again to just stay on course and not stress myself by having expectations for quick growth and feeling like I needed to report that. We still have Jasper. Slow progress continues. He is currently sitting on my shoulder/neck as I type this. He has his routine and is starting to want to include us in his routine. Trust seems deeper. Less time spent clinging to the inside of his cage. He seems more joyful. Does that seem possible? That's how it feels. Like he is more joyful and less in this stress zone. I think he is starting to feel he is here to stay. I feel like I would let him down if I dropped him off. I am starting to look forward to seeing him in the morning, which is good, because up to this point, I was having a hard time enjoying him - getting there. That's where we are at now. http://www.parrotforums.com/members...nning-picture22801-photo-10-23-20-3-16-pm.jpg FYI - I put him on my shoulder but he really loves it there - likes to get under my hair and sit. Good sign.

 

[MegZ]

Meg, you will find this interesting as it addresses early development and forced interaction at pet stores. I will try sbd link the site, that has . So some of Jasper issues could be learned hopelessness, and not having learned to make choices, to be self-directed

" It is impossible to know for sure whether a particular bird’s behavioural issues are due to this type of rearing or another cause entirely, but we can make the logical inference that abnormal development increases the incidence of abnormal behaviour. Clipped baby birds are often advertised as “hand-raised” or “tame”, but many of them are fearful and averse to human contact. The shortcut which circumvents socialising and training these birds is to physically disable them via wing clipping. Because they are unable to fly, they cannot escape a customer who wants to hold them regardless of how fearful they may be. When a bird is afraid, repeatedly forcing it to interact with us and removing all avenues of avoidance does not result in tameness or “bonding”; it results in learned helplessness. Learned helplessness is a condition where an animal or person is first confronted by inescapable stress or pain. Then, later on, even if it would be possible for them to escape the stress or pain, they don’t make any attempt to.19 Essentially, if we force a clipped bird to step up over and over, or if we pick it up off the ground every time it tries to flutter away, we are forcing it into a state of learned helplessness. It’s still afraid, but it has given up. This naturally leads to a more insecure, dependent bird who feels safe in a very limited range of situations"

It focuses on flight, but also shows pet stores , and early deprivation of choice and enrichment. And both are babies suffer from this. On the home page go to early development, or check out tgeir other articles.

https://parrotvolancy.com/wing-clipping-early-development/

This sounds like him. It makes me so sad. He is doing better. See update. Great article. There should be required steps in parrot raising. I'm sorry, but they should not be subjected to what he was subjected to.....

 

[Laurasea]

He is cute such a deep red belly ! Nice update, bird time can be slow for sure! I'm ready for Orbit to sit on my shoulder like that, but hes not ready

 

[Scott]

Jasper update. I waited awhile again to just stay on course and not stress myself by having expectations for quick growth and feeling like I needed to report that. We still have Jasper. Slow progress continues. He is currently sitting on my shoulder/neck as I type this. He has his routine and is starting to want to include us in his routine. Trust seems deeper. Less time spent clinging to the inside of his cage. He seems more joyful. Does that seem possible? That's how it feels. Like he is more joyful and less in this stress zone. I think he is starting to feel he is here to stay. I feel like I would let him down if I dropped him off. I am starting to look forward to seeing him in the morning, which is good, because up to this point, I was having a hard time enjoying him - getting there. That's where we are at now. http://www.parrotforums.com/members...nning-picture22801-photo-10-23-20-3-16-pm.jpg FYI - I put him on my shoulder but he really loves it there - likes to get under my hair and sit. Good sign.

That image makes me smile! I see you beaming with joy, Jasper quite content.

Shoulder privileges ought be earned. That you and Jasper are comfortable is a huge accomplishment! Keep in mind many parronts cannot achieve this after months of bonding and training. Great job!!

 

[MegZ]

Another update. We still have Jasper!! We are continuing to move along with a difficult part of the day here or there, where he suddenly acts like he just came home from the pet store, but otherwise, doing very well. He is starting to try to fly more and we are letting his horribly clipped wings (I know some clip and some don't) but this was a bad haircut....grow out. He is showing more of his personality every day. Very chill bird vs. the one I had before so taking some getting used to....he is letting us know what he wants. One night when he thought we had him up too late, he marched right up the stairs so he could go to bed, which was pretty funny. My husband thinks he is more attached to me and I'm the bossy one. He will stay with me more than my hubby. It's funny because I was the parent who made the boundaries in our family and ironically the kids would come to me when they needed something. Jasper gets to make a million decisions a day but sometimes I am like - nope and nope and nope, and he apparently likes that...ha ha. So, we are still here. He is sitting next to me right now. He likes to preen my hair. That's a good sign. Thank you all for your passion and care and helping us through.

 

[saxguy64]

Thanks for a wonderful update! I'm glad you're giving it a seriously fair shake. Progress is slow sometimes, but a solidly built bond is entirely worth the effort. They do have such individual personalities, it's awesome to see it coming out more and more!

 

[Laurasea]

Preening is Huge! Birds only preen freinds and loved ones

 

[T00tsyd]

I think you'll have to face it. That little bird loves you already and deep down I think you might just befalling too. Well done you! Brilliant work.

 

[Stitchthestitch]

Preening is an amazing sign that he sees you as his flock and friend.

It sounds like you are winning him over just as much as he is you. Keep up this hard work with him and he will reward you with his trust and affection.

Yay for jasper coming out of his little shell!!!

 

[Piasa]

You know, with all of the work he is making you put in, you two are going to have one heck of a bond :27::04:
It has been a delight to follow your story!

 

[MegZ]

Thanks again all. I agree. And the ironic thing, this is our first bird that is all about me - 3rd bird in a little over 20 years. First one was a rescue and she was already 10 years old and lived another 10. The 2nd one got sick after about 7 years. Long complicated story, including a bad vet experience. Very traumatic. Now Jasper. The other two birds always preferred my hubby. This bird likes me. Go figure. He walked down the hall today and walked into the room I work in. That was so cute. As of today, he rarely wants to be in his cage - on top of the little one sometimes but mostly out, and mostly with me, and since we are working from home, he gets to be out a lot. He seems so much happier. And when he came to us, he didn't look as good and he had this weird smell (he kind of smelled bad) and I think it must have been substandard care because after more than a month, that smell is gone and he looks healthier and happier and calmer. I wish people would understand that birds are like other animals, and they don't do well with neglect and mistreatment. I think you are right - that the preening is a big deal and we are starting to bond. I am so glad I had this space to talk about our experience. I used everything everyone said and thought carefully about all the input you gave. I know every suggestion came from a place of care and kindness for birds, so thank you!! He truly was in God awful shape when he came to us and my heart breaks that he had a terrible lonely time for awhile. I will try to get another pic in the next week or so....I should post a before and after. The one from the pet store is heartbreaking. He looks like he is in a little shoe box. Smooth dark walls and one perch, and no toys. No other birds. No place for him to climb or move. He could barely walk when we got him, without face-planting. Now he is climbing everywhere, flying on descent and doing great with that. He is learning things through praise and expectations. Yay!! I can't believe it.

 

[ParrotGenie]

From reading this thread and that I have dealt with 100's of rescues over the years. Issues you were having with him being slow to bond with you and being terrified of hands before was likely due to him being mistreatment and neglected while he was at the pet store. He also likely was't handled much while he was a baby. Now I am glad you gave him a chance, instead of giving up on him and now he coming around. I do recommend click/ target training, it will help big time. Birds from major petstores usually will have a harder time trusting people which doesn't surprise me the issues you when through. It not that the bird has a bad personality, it was he was mistreated. It just that it will take longer for him to start trusting you and other people, but he slowly come around as you are doing everything right so far. Being he preening you it his way of bonding to you.

Main reason why I tell people avoid buying birds at major big chain pet stores as they are known to charge way to much as they buy the birds cheap from local breeders for about $25 to $75 and charge customers for example $350 to $400 for a conure and as a result they sit for months to even a year before being sold and get neglected as a result by people that work at these stores, or mishandled by customers. I know this as work with breeders in my area and hear and see horror stories all the time. It just about profits for these larger pet stores and they sadly treat these birds like inventory and they get neglected as a result. They use to buy animals from 3rd party mills but thankfully that practice for the most part stopped, but now most will buy from local breeders, unless it like a major pet store they still get animals from mills

 

[Jen5200]

I’m so very happy to hear that things are progressing well, and I’m overjoyed that you are bonding with him .

I wanted to flag something to keep in mind (just in case you haven’t heard about this).... sometimes you’ll see a bit of a backslide in behavior - this is normal and sometimes happens once they settle in and get comfortable. It happened with 4/6 of my birds. I think of it like a toddler testing boundaries and seeing how far they can push once they trust you. Hang onto your patience and be consistent with your expectations.....it will pass!

 

[saxguy64]

Another wonderful update! A little change in expectations has proven to make a world of difference. This completely made my day! Keep up the amazing work, it's paying off! For us old A-team fans, "I love it when a plan comes together!"

 

[noodles123]

I knew you would get there if you stuck it out (despite some misgivings)! YAY! Again, there will likely be more roller-coasters ahead, BUT, once you get that bond going, they seem less intense....

I am happy you are feeling more confident. He just needed time (needs time still) but what a great update!

 

[MegZ]

Hi all. Another update. We still have our bird. We have had growth as everyone can see. Typically I don't talk about our misgivings. I just talk about how we reduced our expectations and I talk about growth. Jasper has made slow growth in the past two months. But, I do have to say that there are some recent developments for us, that might in fact mean, that we do not continue down this path. It's kind of a complicated situation and nothing has changed at this point, but it could. I can explain later. Just waiting to see how things play out. We care about him and will make good decisions. Update you later. As always, thank you for your support and care.