Why are some people against hybrids?

[Echo]

Ok people, all the "scientific" stuff aside. How do you feel about purposely crossbreeding species/breeds?? I think that's what the thread was intended (correct me if I'm wrong)

Pookamama wanted to know the REASON WHY some people were against hybrids. Beside not liking it, some have specific reasons to feel that way, even if scientific.

 

[RescueMe]

Debsflock, I totally agree with you. I think that you are right on the money about conservation of the species, the only point I could disagree with is the use of hybrids that are well established in the wild. I fear that if we continue to hybridize our pet population that if something does happen to the wild populations we will have no recourse. The environment is in a precarious position and it is impossible to foresee all of the repercussions of human interference. Conservation of the species is something we have a responsibility to pursue.

 

[Echo]

Unfortunately, as long as there are buyers willing to pay the high prices of hybrids, there will always be people that will hybridize.

 

[Mayden]

Some of you seem to be mixing up "Breeds" with "Species." They are NOT the same thing. Comparing crossing 2 different macaws is NOT the same as crossing 2 different dogs; it's a bad analogy.
All dogs are the same species. They're only different breeds. In human terms, this would be like an Italian person marrying a Japanese person.
Parrots, however, are different species. Mating a Scarlet Macaw with a Blue and Gold Macaw would be more like that Italian person marrying a chimpanzee.
And mating a macaw to a cockatoo would be kind of like the Italian marrying a spider monkey.

It's essential to understand these differences in order to speak intelligently about hybrids.

(Nothing against Italians; just the first nationality to pop in my head!)

Unfortunately you're the closest to the best explanation atm, but you're wrong.

Mating a b&g macaw with a scarlet is not like a human+chimpanzee because all macaws can mate with all different macaws (artificial insemination or not) and produce fertile offspring. Just as a cockatiel can mate with a galah (both cockatoos). unlike a human and chimpanzee who don't have enough 'matching dna' to produce offspring.

Hybrid and cross breeds are exactly the same thing, as well as 'interbreeding'.

You cannot cross a bird such as a sun conure and a senegal, as they are different species. + so do not have enough matching dna, alleles and chromosomes to produce offspring (especially fertile).

I don't mind birds being cross bred, if it's a case of, they're all in an aviary together and just happen to pair up. So 'natural' conjuring hybrids - but I don't like the idea of them being bred to be hybrids and especially not with the 'rare' species, such as the panama amazons, hyacinth macaws, black tailed too's etc. as henpecked mentioned before because we will lose these as 'pure' species and will end up with mushed up hybrids.

I think cross breeding can be a good thing with health as it can mean less genetic problems that can happen with inbreeding for 'pure' birds. But that's just 'bad' breeding problems and not really something that should be worried about in natural conditions...

Zzzzz, so much biology, making my head hurt. Basically; macaw x macaw, is not a 'bad' thing and will produce fertile offspring. conure x poi is impossible and if genetically meddled with, would produce sterile offspring.

A more accurate analogy of Scarlet macaw v. B+G macaw would be Homo sapiens (our species) mating with Homo erectus/australopithecus/habilis... still different species and thus still very different from dog breeds (ALL dogs are Canis familiaris, be they pugs or great danes). I decided not to say that because 1. none of those are extant species and 2. it's not as easily accessible to laymen, so to speak.
Anyway, the point was simply to help people understand that breeds are not the same as species, so that they can develop a more informed opinion.

Perhaps another important point is that one of the hallmarks of a "Species" is reproductive isolation. In nature, these pairings basically never occur- they're almost only seen after human interference. Just because, genetically, they could produce offspring doesn't mean they would- they are distinct, different species.

And fun fact: false killer whales and bottlenose dolphins belong to different genera, but they can produce fertile hybrids. This actually IS analogous to a human mating with a chimp.

You're misunderstanding me.

First of all; "Many people seem to think that the wholphin is actually a hybrid between a dolphin and a whale. This is a very untrue notion.http://voices.yahoo.com/the-wholphin-strange-dolphin-false-killer-whale-5984970.html The wholphin is the offspring of a bottlenosed dolphin and a false killer whale. The "whale" that people seem to think is one of the parents is actually another type of dolphin. Although, this is still a very interesting hybrid species, it is most certainly not the mixing of whales and dolphins together."

They are not from the same Genus, no, but are similar in the same way that a Pyrrhura (green cheek) is similar to an Aratinga (sun conure). Many will agree, not that much difference, biologically that is.

Just trying to clarify the difference between what is a hybrid and what is just a complete mess of breeding. and that would be, one is viable to happen in nature, whereas the other would have to be made in a lab, would be sterile and probably have numerous health conditions. You cannot breed a macaw and conure together, but can breed any birds of the same families together.

There is nothing 'wrong' about hybrids, they do occur naturally, but when breeding I think you should try and keep the blood lines as pure as you can to preserve that breed. It's not really an issue with budgies (american/english) as it is with birds such as the black palm too's etc. But I think you see my point...

Also, high five on you knowing your biology! It's refreshing to meet someone who obviously has a keen interest in bio too.

 

[mcw009]

You're misunderstanding me.

First of all; "Many people seem to think that the wholphin is actually a hybrid between a dolphin and a whale. This is a very untrue notion.http://voices.yahoo.com/the-wholphin-strange-dolphin-false-killer-whale-5984970.html The wholphin is the offspring of a bottlenosed dolphin and a false killer whale. The "whale" that people seem to think is one of the parents is actually another type of dolphin. Although, this is still a very interesting hybrid species, it is most certainly not the mixing of whales and dolphins together."

They are not from the same Genus, no, but are similar in the same way that a Pyrrhura (green cheek) is similar to an Aratinga (sun conure). Many will agree, not that much difference, biologically that is.

Just trying to clarify the difference between what is a hybrid and what is just a complete mess of breeding. and that would be, one is viable to happen in nature, whereas the other would have to be made in a lab, would be sterile and probably have numerous health conditions. You cannot breed a macaw and conure together, but can breed any birds of the same families together.

There is nothing 'wrong' about hybrids, they do occur naturally, but when breeding I think you should try and keep the blood lines as pure as you can to preserve that breed. It's not really an issue with budgies (american/english) as it is with birds such as the black palm too's etc. But I think you see my point...

Also, high five on you knowing your biology! It's refreshing to meet someone who obviously has a keen interest in bio too.

Well, I don't really think I am misunderstanding you. First, notice I did specify "False killer whale" (I've personally swam with the world's only known wholphin).
More importantly, mating 2 bird species from the same family is equivalent to the human-chimp pairing. "Not that much difference, biologically" can still be a considerable difference in reality- as is commonly cited that we share 94% of our DNA with chimps.

Ok people, all the "scientific" stuff aside. How do you feel about purposely crossbreeding species/breeds?? I think that's what the thread was intended (correct me if I'm wrong)

The scientific stuff is vital for forming an opinion, though! It's the facts. If not facts, what is there to base an opinion on? Dreams, religion, superstitions? Perhaps someone who came here thinking hybrids were fine because they thought it was like dog breeds would change their opinion upon learning that it's not quite like that.

Personally, I actually don't have a very strong opinion on hybridizing parrots. I'd be against hybridizing a rare species to avoid losing their genetic diversity, but generally if 2 species can reproduce successfully and not have offspring with problems, that seems acceptable.

 

[DebsFlock]

Debsflock, I totally agree with you. I think that you are right on the money about conservation of the species, the only point I could disagree with is the use of hybrids that are well established in the wild. I fear that if we continue to hybridize our pet population that if something does happen to the wild populations we will have no recourse. The environment is in a precarious position and it is impossible to foresee all of the repercussions of human interference. Conservation of the species is something we have a responsibility to pursue.

Yes, I agree that's a reasonable concern. Maybe I should have said in the wild and in zoos/aviaries. I do think if enough breeding stock exists, it becomes a less critical concern.

 

[MonicaMc]

Not my pic. I have seen it in person, but the bird was already sold and I have no pictures. I have never seen galahtiels, but now that I do I would have to say I'm against that too.

Sorry to take this a little OT, but ConureCrazy, I'm curious to know if you saw that specific hybrid for sale? Or was it a different bird?

If I recall right, it was assumed that bird (pictured) is a sun x hahns, although from reading about the bird, we can't be 100% sure on it. I do know that said bird belonged to a breeder who has since gone out of business? Website disappeared.

I have also heard of a hahns x nanday x jenday cross, however, I do not see any jenday in the pairing and the bird was supposedly in Australia.

 

[ConureCrazy]

I did not see the bird in the picture, but I have personally with my own eyes seen a Hans x jenday bird. On that website, yes, they can only assume, but I have seen one myself... I do not sell birds btw

 

[MonicaMc]

Thank you for the information!

Interestingly enough, the image you posted came from one of my albums that contains hybrids! That, and I was curious to know what ever may have become of the bird!



To be more on topic...

It's a fine line between species, subspecies and variations. You can have variations within a species or subspecies. I know some people frown upon Wikipedia, but it contains some useful information which may be worth reading...

Species - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Subspecies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_(biology)


Now as far as the health of hybrids go, as stated, it depends on how closely the parents are related. The closer the parents are, the healthier the offspring will be, kind of like what is believed to be in mutts between two different breeds of dogs... however, it's not always true that the resulting offspring are healthier than their parents. When they are, it is known as hybrid vigor. This is where the hybrid offspring have more genetic code than both parents, thus less chances of bad recessive genes causing problems.

For example, a Scarlet Macaw x Green Wing or maybe a Jenday Conure x Sun Conure. These hybrids have the highest chance of being healthy because they are pretty close together genetically speaking. (although I am not a scientistic - just because two different species look similar doesn't mean they'll produce healthy offspring)

Heterosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Hybrid Vigor)

The opposite is also possible... outbreeding depression. Outbreeding depression is where we see animals with problems. It could be something as simple as incompatible behaviors (a hybrid peach face x "eye ring" lovebird not being able to decide between tucking nesting material in the rump or carrying it in their beaks) to infertility (mules), or worse.

For example, Sun Conure x Green Cheek Hybrids. It is unknown whether they are fertile or sterile, however the chicks have a high mortality rate as well as a chance of birth defects (I've only seen feet so far). I've also heard through the grapevine (as it were) that one breeder had a pair of hybrid macaws that were born with their innards in the incorrect places.

Let me ask you... with how common hybrid macaws are, have any of you seen 5th generation hybrids? What about 6th generation hybrids? If they are out there, they aren't very common! I have heard that infertility is an issue in the hybrid macaws, the further along that you breed.

Outbreeding depression - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


In short, I am against people hybridizing animals. If it's going to be done, I want to see it done responsibly! And I want to see the hybrid offspring sold as hybrids! And I read through that link about hybrid vs crossbred eclectus... well, if you breed two subspecies together, it's still a hybrid.... and everyone is against hybrid eclectus!

What about hybrid green cheeks? Or hybrid senegals? Did you know that both species have subspecies? Or that mitred conures do as well? And blue crown conures? If you are against hybrid eclectus, think about how many other species are out there with subspecies? Then think about how many hybrids we already have within captivity if people were unable to differentiate between the different subspecies?


If you own a species that also has subspecies, there's a chance that the bird you have could be a hybrid, and you don't even know it! Isn't that a scary thought!


If you are interested in hybrids, I've been gathering photos, preferably of the rarer/unknown hybrids, but a few known ones as well. Link is as follows.
Flickr: Hybrid Parrots

 

[WannaBeAParrot]

I pretty much got lost somewhere in the explanations of species and monkeys and italians and breeds.

I'm just wondering why somone feels the need to force a hybrid. Why are they not wanting to enjoy and celebrate the bird for who he is rather than trying to Frankenstein hi in to something else for the next round of babies. You like a sun conure, then get a sun conure. You like a Jenday conure, ten get a Jenday. If you don't like either, then you just say...let's see what I can get out of breeding them and maybe iI'll like that bird????? It just seems uncessary messing with nature at a time when resources are shifting a lot. These animals have the gazillions of years of natural history to help them along.

 

[MonicaMc]

I pretty much got lost somewhere in the explanations of species and monkeys and italians and breeds.

I'm just wondering why somone feels the need to force a hybrid. Why are they not wanting to enjoy and celebrate the bird for who he is rather than trying to Frankenstein hi in to something else for the next round of babies. You like a sun conure, then get a sun conure. You like a Jenday conure, ten get a Jenday. If you don't like either, then you just say...let's see what I can get out of breeding them and maybe iI'll like that bird????? It just seems uncessary messing with nature at a time when resources are shifting a lot. These animals have the gazillions of years of natural history to help them along.

A lot of people love hybrids, so breeders will create hybrids for those who love them - unless the breeder is completely against hybrids.

And then you have the other breeders who don't know what they have and breed them anyway... i.e. I've seen a jenday pair for sale where it was a jenday and a gold capped conure. Or maybe it was a sun conure pair, one being a sun and the other being a jenday or gold cap. I've also seen cherry headed conure pairs where one was a cherry head and the other is a mitred conure.

People are unknowingly hybridizing different species as well as subspecies because they cannot tell them apart, or are unaware of the different species/subspecies.

And then you have the pet owners who are not breeders, yet keep two or more species together and unintentionally create hybrids.