We really need to talk about parrot aggression and training methods.

[khaiqha]

Even in this thread I am noticing a lot of confusion with the language being used. Positive is being used to mean "good" and negative is being used to mean "bad," when really positive should be used to mean more and negative used to mean less.

I think it would help anyone new to bird's reading this if in the future we make clear that distinction.

 

[GaryBV]

I have to admit I LMAO at the picture Birdman gave me of his bird puking in his ear and then trying to mate with it lol. I real out loud

 

[strudel]

I am going to seek outside help.

Sometimes there are things that you just aren't seeing that an independent observer can point out to you. I got a behaviourist in when I adopted my little dog. I'd done quite a bit of training with my other dog and wasn't a novice but I didn't know what to do with him. The behaviourist pointed out that he was afraid of me. This wasn't something I had considered. I don't think I'm "scary", I'm all soothing voice and pats and I consider myself "good with animals". Animals I'm told are "shy" will often let me pat them, I guess I give out non-threatening "vibes". That an animal would be scared of me wasn't something that had come to mind, but that observation gave me a direction for interacting and training with him, it was like a "key" to unlock how to proceed. Even now, he is afraid of everything, but I know what "makes him tick". I hope you'll have similar results with your outside input.

 

[Abigal7]

I do not ever agree with ever being mean or abusing to a bird. I agree with Birdman666 with everything thing he says. To bad you do not live in my neck of the woods because I know you could teach me how to handle a large parrot. I have no problem with sitting a bird on the floor if it bites and leaving them there for awhile. I know this is a little off base but most parrot trainers probably would tell someone with a aggressive flighted bird to get their wings trimmed. Birdman666 I have to ask you what you think of Ken Globus (out of curiosity). I seen videos of him online.

 

[Chesphoto]

Wow, greet thread. When I first started reading this thread, I thought that this was a cheap attack on Birdman . Turns out to be a great discussion.

I have really appreciated the advice that Birdman has given, but I also love the ideas and teachings of Barbara Heidenreich. Unfortunately, they don't match up completely...

When I first meet Skittles, she was pretty aggressive. She had good reason to be, she was badly abused. I was a volunteer at the shelter, and after being badly bitten by an Amazon, I followed Barbara's advice about not forcing a bird to do anything. It worked and Skittles is great around me. We have a great bond and trust each other completely. Unfortunately, she is not so great around anyone else...

She had bit another volunteer so bad, she needed stitches. She has bitten my wife twice, once so hard that she had nerve damage for over two months. Unfortunately. I think Skittles was abused by a lady, so that may explain the attacks.

If Skittles was a dog, after three attacks, it is likely she would be put down... There are many birds like this at the shelter. So if using a towel or holding its beak a couple of times to prevent another serious attack, that doesn't sound like a bad trade off. I really love Skittles, but I know that if she keeps biting my wife, I won't have a choice in whether I keep her or not..

I am open to any suggestions.

 

[Chesphoto]

And for those that really want to help, here is a little background info on Skittles...

She is a Scarlet. She has nipped me and pinched me, but has never bitten me. When she does nip my fingers, I put them in her mouth to show her that I am not afraid of her. She instantly starts licking them or begins preening them. She really is like a lap dog with me. She loves being with me but can spend hours by herself. If I hold her and scratch her head, she will let anyone pet her. She is the perfect bird around me. Given the chance though, she will beg you to come over real close just so she can bite you. Truly, she begs for you to get near her, dancing for you, saying hello and step up and once you fall for her trap, wham, instant pain and blood.

How would Barbara Heidenreich deal with that... Birdman, I would appreciate your take too.

 

[Birdman666]

My take on this:

Scarlett's are one of the beakiest of the bunch.

They are pair bond birds. They are very emotional and jealous. They are prone to expressing themselves with their beaks.

This one has pair bonded to you, and sounds like she is over bonded. It is essentially, a one person bird at this point. Your wife is the person coming between her and her pair bond person.

She reacts accordingly. Drive the rival away from the nest. That is probably the reason she reacts to your wife the way she does.

Socialization with more people is usually the answer, but that is tricky when you have a biter who causes stitches on your hand.

It was a difficult decision, but I had to place one of our favorite big macs in a sanctuary with only other birds, because he was simply to dangerous to people, and too dangerous with smaller birds. That bird had been kept in a storage unit for 32 years, and had gone have mad from sensory deprivation.

The good news is that once placed in the shelter, he had a flight with 30+ other macaws his own size. He became the "flock leader" of the flight, and he now has a mate. He dotes over all the other birds, and has attention all the time now.

I consider that a happy ending myself. He didn't end up with us, but he found the place where he belonged...

Anyway, I'm an opinionated a$$hole... just my two cents.

 

[Birdman666]

Wow, greet thread. When I first started reading this thread, I thought that this was a cheap attack on Birdman . Turns out to be a great discussion.

I have really appreciated the advice that Birdman has given, but I also love the ideas and teachings of Barbara Heidenreich. Unfortunately, they don't match up completely...

First of all, as a public, if someone wants to attack my methods, and open a frank discussion about the when, where, and whys, I think it's a useful exercise. If I'm giving bad advice, then someone needs to call me on it...

And I can understand where people might think they are causing trust issues with this... and short term, with a few birds, it might... that possibility exists. But for the vast majority of them, they are the ones that started the conflict by biting... don't start none, won't be none. (I certainly wouldn't do this with a super neurotic plucker, but when you are talking about amazons and macaws, these are hardy birds who rarely pluck, and get over it quickly. And most aggressive birds simply need the discipline and need to know the boundaries will be enforced.)

Second, I happen to know Barbara, and our methods really aren't all that far off. Mine are a little more direct. My own personal opinion is that if you allow a behavior to fester, it becomes that much more difficult to correct... and the longer you wait, the worse it sometimes gets...

I don't tend to wait with a rehab. I start up very soon after the bird arrives, since it is unaware of "the rules" in a new situation, and is therefore, more open to repatterning... yeah, the first session or two can be a bit stressful, but if they adapt and their life improves right away, the overall affect is a vastly improved quality of life for both bird and human.

And you are actually TEACHING the bird the ropes, how things work in the new place. You are behaving like a parent bird. And in that respect, I believe the take it slow advice may not be the best advice after all...

How do birds learn to fly? Mom and dad toss them out of the nest when they are ready. Is that traumatic and stressful?! Uummm... Yeah. But they get over it, and they learn. The big thing is to see how the bird reacts, and not over do it in one session. Keep training sessions short and fun, and always reward them with praise and treats.

Finally, THERE IS NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER HERE.

Each bird is unique. The protocols work for the most part, but one size does not fit all. If it works, use it. If it isn't working, no matter what famous person advocates it... try something else.

EVERYONE AND HIS MOTHER TOLD ME NOT TO DO WHAT I DID WITH SALLY...

BUT LOOK HOW SHE TURNED OUT!!! AND I DON'T BELIEVE IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANY OTHER WAY. SHE WAS TOO AGGRESSIVE, AND TOO FAR GONE WHEN I GOT HER.

Would I do that with every amazon? No.

Would I ever do that with a tame amazon who knows how to step up without biting? Absolutely not!

But sometimes, doing it the hard way, leaves them more open to the easy way.

 

[Birdman666]

Wow, greet thread. When I first started reading this thread, I thought that this was a cheap attack on Birdman . Turns out to be a great discussion.

I have really appreciated the advice that Birdman has given, but I also love the ideas and teachings of Barbara Heidenreich. Unfortunately, they don't match up completely...

First of all, as a public forum, if someone wants to attack my methods, and open a frank discussion about the when, where, and whys, I think it's a useful exercise. If I'm giving bad advice, then someone needs to call me on it...

If you think it's bad advice. Don't follow it. Do something else.

Reasonable minds can disagree without resorting to name calling. That would be childish of all of us, and it would make the board a horrible place to be. So would agreeing with each other all the time about everything. No insight is gained that way.

And I can understand where people might think they are causing trust issues with this... and short term, with a few birds, it might... that possibility exists.

But for the vast majority of them, they are the ones that started the conflict by biting... don't start none, won't be none. (I certainly wouldn't do this with a super neurotic plucker, but when you are talking about amazons and macaws, these are hardy birds who rarely pluck, and get over it quickly. And most aggressive birds simply need the discipline and need to know the boundaries will be enforced.)

Second, I happen to know Barbara, and our methods really aren't all that far off. Mine are a little more direct. My own personal opinion is that if you allow a behavior to fester, it becomes that much more difficult to correct... and the longer you wait, the worse it sometimes gets...

I don't tend to wait with a rehab. I start up very soon after the bird arrives, since it is unaware of "the rules" in a new situation, and is therefore, more open to repatterning... You have that first day or two where you can repattern them into your rules, before they get back to their old "I'm set in my ways, and I'm not about to change them" routine. And in that respect, I believe the old take it slow advice, might not be the best approach after all...

No, bird. You're in a new place, and these rules apply here.

Patient yes, but this is your opportunity to re-pattern a bird. Take advantage of it. Yeah, the first session or two can be a bit stressful, but if they adapt and their quality life improves right away, the overall affect is a vastly improved quality of life for both bird and human. And a bird that is more open to experiencing new things. And you are actually TEACHING the bird the ropes, how things work in the new place. You are behaving like a parent bird.

How do birds learn to fly? Mom and dad toss them out of the nest when they are ready. Is that traumatic and stressful?! Uummm... Yeah. But they get over it, and they learn. And gradually, the parent bird shows them the ropes. This is where we forrage. This is how we behave. These are the things to be afraid of. These are the things we are not afraid of. And this is how we behave ourselves within the flock.

In captivity THAT'S YOUR JOB! You've taken on that role.

The big thing is to see how the bird reacts, and not over do it in one session. Try to keep training sessions short and fun, and always reward them with praise and treats.

Finally, THERE IS NO ONE RIGHT ANSWER HERE.

Each bird is unique. The protocols work for the most part, but one size does not fit all. If it works, use it. If it isn't working, no matter what famous person advocates it... try something else.

EVERYONE AND HIS MOTHER TOLD ME NOT TO DO WHAT I DID WITH SALLY...

BUT LOOK HOW SHE TURNED OUT!!! AND I DON'T BELIEVE IT WOULD HAVE HAPPENED ANY OTHER WAY. SHE WAS TOO AGGRESSIVE, AND TOO FAR GONE WHEN I GOT HER.

Would I do that with every amazon? No.

Would I ever do that with a tame amazon who knows how to step up without biting? Absolutely not!

But sometimes, doing it the hard way, leaves them more open to the easy way.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Birdman666]

For the record: I never saw it as such.

And actually Rachel and I were the "Go To" behavior people on the old ParroTalk site before it crashed, which was a wealth of information. I was also a moderator on 3FF for a time.

 

[Abigal7]

I want to present this topic as honestly as I can without stepping on toes. Please understand that I do not mean this personally as an attack on individuals, but that I am asking if we can reconsider some of the advice that is commonly given. I do not like to be confrontational. It is only when I see advice that I believe to be damaging to parrots, I would personally feel unethical if I didn't address the topic.

Why are we still insisting that parrots are dominating creatures who need to be put in their place? Why are we acting on this misinterpretation using aggressive handling methods that force parrots to do things they are afraid of instead of earning their trust? When a parrot is suddenly acting aggressive, why is it that we first recommend these methods instead of asking questions about that parrots health, I.e. has it been to the vet recently for a thorough check up??

Forcing a bird to step up and preventing a bite by holding the beak? What about a simple target training lesson first to teach the bird where you want it to go? And biting without warning? What about watching for physical signs of aggression first and not putting it in a postion where you would need to force a step up? Sometimes birds who were nice will bite because something is physically wrong. Sometimes we have unknowingly done things to condition behaviors and we need to start over with a new routine that teaches structure. Sometimes we neglect daily interaction and leave the bird on a play stand because we feel bad leaving it in a cage. Of course the bird doesn't want to leave the stand to go back in a cage. If you haven't taught them that leaving the stand=other good things will happen, they will want to stay there. Toweling the bird, holding its beak, clipping its wings.....these are extreme and frankly horrifying ways of addressing the problem, which essentially is that you didn't train your bird yet you expect them to do what you want. These animals are intelligent and they need stimulation and direction in order to be content. If you don't have time to train, okay. Wait until you do have time before letting them out, otherwise you are going to condition behavior problems and destroy your trusting relationship using those medieval and barbaric approaches.

Parrots are prey animals who live in huge flocks and dispute over resources. There is no leader bird. This is recognized as fact. We are not regarded as fellow birds to them, and their responses towards us are usually based on fear and trust. They learn what to expect from us and act accordingly. They do not try to take advantage of humans in some hierarchy sense. It doesn't exist in their behavioral vocabulary.

Here is an example of someone interpreting their behavior in an anecdotal sense, not from a scientific background. They sound qualified because they "worked for a conservation project". Virtually anyone can decide to be a volunteer and do that. 10,000 Birds | The frat boys of the bird world


Here is an example of a someone with a scientific background and formal education, describing behaviors and myths of parrots. They cite their claims and you can look up their references. http://www.naturalencounters.com/im...ng_Parrot_Behavior_Naturally-Steve_Martin.pdf

There is a trainer Barbara Heidenreich who has a formal education as well as experience training hundreds of parrots for zoos as well as countless companion parrots privately owned. She explains in detail why behaviors such as biting exist and how to eliminate the behaviors using humane methods that do NOT instill fear. Here is her blog where you can find more info:Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk Knowing all of this, why would we continue to suggest things that directly harm our parrot's sense of well being?

I have life long experience with parrots and other birds. I have never been seriously bitten, not until a year ago when I bought a baby from a breeder who is of that school of thought I dispute here. My baby was taught at a young age that it would be restrained and held by the beak while interacting with people. He is a sensitive parrot who learned that aggressive displays don't matter and he could only defend himself with biting unless his beak was held. It has taken me nearly a YEAR to teach this baby that body language is respected and he doesn't have to bite me, that he can settle down in my presence and just begin normal training with a clean slate.

I didn't realize it was so common to approach parrots this way, otherwise I would have asked the breeder questions about how she trained them instead of making sure she wasn't a dirty bird mill. Most people would give up on a parrot like this. I must call attention to this problem because there are well meaning people who don't know any better, who will try these approaches and end up ruining their relationship with their parrot. Just because someone has been doing something wrong for 30 years, it does not mean they are doing what is right or best for their birds.

I agree with a lot of what you say and agree with not forcing a bird to do stuff. And the guy (you were talking about) that sprayed a macaw with a hose was totally wrong. I never dealt with a large bird or the type of birds Birdman666 talks about, let alone a bird like Stevie. That said if a flighted bird was going around attacking people is wing clipping a bad decision? If your bird needs vet care is not the chanced it will be toweled high? If a bird bites you hard is sitting it on the ground and turning your back and walking way inhumane? I am curious on peoples views on that. You have made strives with Stevie and you are patient and gentle with him. Since we got our birds from the same breeder I read about Stevie with interest because if I ever did start having the same issues I do not want to be taken by surprise.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[strudel]

LilCaity, it is possible that you haven't done anything wrong, that Stevie is just not "quite right". That sounds like a copout excuse, however with my little dog with the "issues", my vet said to me that some animals just aren't "right". You described Stevie as similar to somebody with autism. His reactions and responses may be due to some inherent personality or physical traits of his, rather than "mistakes" made by his carers. I've come to the point where I realize that no amount of retraining my dog will ever make him anything other than fearful. Whether that's because of his physiology, his past treatment or both, I don't know, all I know is that he is never going to "get" that a quick movement does not involve some threat to him. This dog could NEVER go to a family with little kids. He's ok with me, but he'll never be "normal" no matter how much you try.

Can I just say one other thing about training? There's a difference between force and assertiveness. You can stick to your guns and have what you want happen, without resorting to force. You just need to be consistent, and clear about what you want. Sometimes, just the mindset, "here's what's going to happen now" can make it happen, instead of "oh god, he's not going to listen to me, this isn't going to work, yada yada yada" It's like people with authority, such as schoolteachers. If they've "got the goods", a look in the right direction will control behaviour where somebody without the confidence/assertiveness/air of authority will be begging and pleading and being ignored. If you expect them to do what you ask, they are more likely to do it. (something to do with non-verbal cues, body language, dunno, but it works)

 

[goalerjones]

Hahnzel is a typical "Napolean" as a Hahns macaw. However I have been really making an effort to see who he actually is rather than say, "he's a Hahns macaw so he will act like this". Those articles helped me to break away from the traditional "you must dominate your bird" mentality.

 

[Abigal7]

LilCathy, I have to agree with Strudel on this especially considering you describe him as a person with autism. Yes, it may sound like a cop out but it is possible that you have done nothing wrong with Stevie. There is no need to apologize for talking about Stevie. After all this forum is about getting information.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[strudel]

Hey, LilCaity.... Tippi Hedren called - she wants her movie role back Sorry, couldn't resist ....

A couple of observations, I've no idea whether they'll be helpful and I'm a bird newb, so.

That video was 19 minutes long, and there were "only" a few interludes of Rondo alla Turca. Mostly he was on his stand. Are you a talker? Do you talk to him a lot? I never shut up, I'd be raving on about what a good boy he is sitting there on his stand, on and on and on, just including him in what I'm doing and yakking, basically. When he went all Hitchcock, I'd be saying something as well. Also, even though he's trying to maul you, I'd try to straighten up instead of hunch over. He's got wings, if he gets unbalanced because you want to be upright, he can use them. He shouldn't get to turn you into quasimodo. I don't know whether it works with birds, but can you distract him when he starts chomping? Start singing volare or something, see what he does or make some noises that he might be distracted/interested in. As soon as he stops chomping (IF he stops chomping) reward reward reward. Doesn't matter if you haven't got food on you, voice, rave on about how good he is. (As I say, I'm not up on birds, so this may not be right, if somebody who is birdy tells you otherwise, listen to them).

 

[Chesphoto]

Wow, greet thread. When I first started reading this thread, I thought that this was a cheap attack on Birdman . Turns out to be a great discussion.

I have no motivation to cheaply attack someone. I am glad you saw deeper into this post.

Sorry Lil Caity, I didn't mean to imply that you were taking a cheap shot, my thought was a more general one of "oh no, I hope this thread doesn't go down that road" and it never did. Once again, the members of this forum are great and take the higher road. I should have chosen my words better, sorry about that.