We really need to talk about parrot aggression and training methods.

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Birdman666]

IAnd you are absolutely right - birds don't know dominance, they are flock creatures. They don't climb onto the highest point because they feel "superior" or "dominant". No, they climb up high so they can see everything better, so they can assess their space.

Ok, I'll climb down my pedestal now....as gracefully as possible.

Okay, first of all, I agree height dominance is absolutely a Myth perpetuated by Mattie Sue Athan. Who was right about the behavior she saw but wrong about the theory.

A captive bird acts up when he goes up high, because he is not tame or trusting yet, and he goes to the position of relative safety where he recognizes you are not in the position to control him.

In the wild, the flock leader isn't the bird at the highest point on the tree. It's the flock sentinel. The most nervous bird, whose hypervigilent for predators.

My playstands are taller than I am. My birds don't bite me when they are up there. If height dominance were true, they would. Why? They are tame, and they are not afraid.

BUT there are ABSOLUTELY dominance issues in pair bond birds. (Amazons, Macaws, and conures, usually males. And Eckies, usually the females.) And some species display more of it than others. (Greenwings, Buffons, and Scarlett Macaws come immediately to mind. Followed closely behind by Militaries.)

Ever seen the male greenwing mac put a female in the nest box, and not allow her to leave?! You're gonna tell me she puts up with that because she loves him?

WRONG! She puts up with it because he will attack her if she tries to leave. (And the purpose to this is to keep the eggs from dying.)

Ever see a male Amazon, DYH in particular, in "protect the nest" mode?

NOT DOMINANT?! THIS IS MY TERRITORY GET THE HELL OUT.... AND I'LL TAKE ON CRITTERS TEN TIMES MY SIZE DEFENDING IT!

Trigger that in captivity, and you do have a problem on your hands! And people inadvertently trigger these things all the time!

And Female Eckies during breeding season absolutely boss the males around. They can be quite ruthless at times, and the males are hardwired to just sit there and take it.

 

[thekarens]

I'm no expert, bit anyone who says birds don't attack each other in the wild hasn't spent any time bird watching.

 

[Birdman666]

Birds don't attack each other in the wild?! Have you seen the wild parrots of telegraph hill recently? The one bird who was different from the other who got the crap kicked out of it and shunned? I respectfully disagree.

There are two different flock survival strategies.

The "guardian angel" birds, who watch out for each other.
And the "Survival of the fittest" flock. Don't come near me if you're sick or injured, You're gonna get us all killed.

Red Lored Amazons are "guardian angel" birds. That's in her DNA.

Sally bit because her former owner abused her. PERIOD! And she de-gloved her former owner's thumb in return.

She was DONE with humans. After 8 months at the rescue she not only did not progress in any way shape or form, she was a danger to herself and others. Still cage bound, and breaking blood feathers thrashing at the cage when people walked by.... And she was due to be put down. It was either take her or she gets put to sleep. (She was just as dangerous to other birds as she was to people at the time.)

The person who tried to work with her as you suggested, also got a thumb de-gloved for her trouble. (As in, skin graft time...)

She would not come out of the cage voluntarily, EVER, as it was her place of safety. And she was prepared to defend it to the death. (It was all she had.)

She would have stayed there the rest of her life, because of what her former owner "taught her" about the world.

Cage bound protocols are exactly that. Take the cage away from them. Put them out on a playstand. They need to learn to adjust. Then gradually expose them to more and more, and desensitize them...

Yes. They will absolutely be freaked out at first... EMPHASIS ON AT FIRST... but once they figure out that their life is not in danger, and this is outside and interaction/playtime, they are no longer afraid or freaked out (gradually less and less each day, so gradually left out longer and longer) and soon they are no longer cage bound.

Amazons are hardy, stubborn, and attitudinous. They rarely pluck. They tend to approach everything contrary. One minute I'm scared as hell. The next minute I'm attacking it and playing with it. The next minute I'm attacking you for trying to take it away from me. THAT'S MINE!

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Birdman666]

HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!!!

When I refer to beak grabbing, I am not talking about what you do. Even my hero Barbara recommends doing that if you do happen to get bit by accident, just to get the beak away from causing damage and putting the bird down safely. I am referring to people who misunderstand the purpose of it and actually hold onto the beak the entire time they hold a bird.

Never in a million years did I ever advocate that, nor would I.

Thank you for clarifying that. I didn't even realize someone got that impression.

 

[LiL_Caity413]

 

[Birdman666]

I really appreciate it when people treat their birds with respect. I feel like my heart lives outside of my body and it hurts when I see or know of birds who are treated with archaic beliefs systems. I once was helping a man privately at his home with his parrots. He needed me to assist in clipping their wings (among other things). The bird (b&g macaw) was screaming as he held it in a towel. So he holds the bird out by it's neck at arms length and sprayed it with a garden hose. Ever since then I have felt a need to educate people to prevent this from happening. That was an accepted way of treating a blue and gold macaw in that man's eyes, because "experienced" people told him that you must handle them that way. Seeing Fargo gives people a different outlook that is hard to convey with words only. Thanks Tab, you are the bomb!

That is just ignorant beyond words... I'm flabergasted that someone thought this was a proper way to treat a big mac!

 

[Birdman666]

I have seen. EDIt....I mean parrots don't bite each other to the point of injury unless it involves extreme circumstances that are threatening. Food and babies. Read the article I linked initially.

And working with parrots as I have suggested should not ever involve a bite. You don't allow physical contact that would result in a bite. If they can't take treats from your hand without trying to bite, Don't try to touch them. It takes time.

Right. They don't injure each other, but there is a flock hierarchy, and the flock leaders are at the top of the hierarchy. And the other bird backs down, and THAT is what establishes the hierarchy. That is what we are doing here... establishing the hierarchy. When a dominant macaw tries to take over, he finds out he is not the one in charge, and accepts his place in the flock. That is EXACTLY the concept of this. In captivity, for safety purposes, "big bird" needs to be the human caretaker. [THIS ASSUMES BIG BIRD IS ACTUALLY LOOKING OUT FOR THE SAFETY AND WELFARE OF EVERYONE, NOT JUST ACTING OUT OF SOME SICK PSYCHOLOGICAL DEFICIT WHERE HE NEEDS TO DOMINATE AN ANIMAL CUZ HUMANS WON'T ACCEPT HIM. (Seen that one too! Sorry, we are not giving you a bird.)

That Ruby macaw would ALWAYS bite when handled. It took 8 months to retrain her. Greenwing dominance issues plus scarlett beakiness issues... the worst of both worlds! You handled her and assumed she was gonna, and beat her to the punch... when she finally got tired of that game, we taught her some new games. After that, all you had to do was play with her. But getting her to that point was both a challenge and painful at times...

I never hesitated putting that one on the floor. Just watch your feet when you do... cuz it ain't over yet, folks.

 

[Blancaej]

Thank you for starting this thread. I think positive reinforced training is always the best way to go. But some birds have had little to no training. Especially some rehomed birds. Sometimes you can't always let the bird decide when it's time to do something. Especially in the beginning. I try to give my birds more time so I can try everything possible for them to cooperate and do what I ask in the beginning. They may want to be out of the cage, but they do have to go in at some point and waiting for them isn't always an option. I do believe in positive reinforced training, but sometimes you do need to be firm or your bird could walk all over you! I've seen it with others! BUT, as soon as the bird is comfortable and is trainable, in a new home I think the best thing you can do for your bird is train it using positive reinforcement!

I treat my fids just like my human kids and train them in the same way. I have two VERY well behaved children! I show them all lots of love, always give them positive feedback and praise, but am firm so they no that negative behavior is not ok!

 

[Birdman666]

EXACTLY! If all bird owners were as clear on the concept, we probably wouldn't have anything to talk about, because they would all be well behaved.

And I really do think this was a useful thread.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Can we also please talk about the TERRIBLE TWOS???? I know they are not a myth. I went through it with Niko, my B&G, and it was no walk in the park. Now I'm going through it with Ripley, the GW.

His newest thing is he flies to me and then uses his beak a bit too much. He doesn't puncture the skin, but he sure bruises. :54: A firm NO, and the evil eye work great, so much so that he now says it himself after he's grabbed me too hard again. :30:...and then he laughs.....like a Hyena.

 

[Featheredsamurai]

This is a excellent thread, I loved reading it! I feel bad for parrots who are punished

I agree that flocks won't damage one another badly(at least not on purpose). In captivity we screw with their minds, I don't believe all captive birds are mentally sound. Cockatoos for example are known for mutalating, or even killing their mates. But then, most are hand raised and can't be trusted with their parents, the parents would likely kill their offspring because they themselves think they're human.


Very interesting point of vews in each comment, I may not agree with all of them but each one had a view We could all learn from.

 

[Blancaej]

One positive thing about owning older rehomed birds is they are past the terrible two's! LOL! :09:

 

[Birdman666]

I feel bad for parrots who are punished

Punishment doesn't work. Preventing a bird from biting you, and then rewarding it for not biting you STILL falls under the heading of positive reinforcement.

If he has to fly down to the floor and get picked up 10 times before that happens, it's not a negative. It's a learning curve. They do understand the concept of there are "immediate consequences" to aggressive actions. If they instigate it, you prevent it.

YOU are not the aggressor. THE BIRD is being the aggressor. Aggression will not be tolerated. It will be prevented.

You will answer to Mr. Towel.

When you calm down, and don't do that, all is forgiven...

 

[Birdman666]

Can we also please talk about the TERRIBLE TWOS???? I know they are not a myth. I went through it with Niko, my B&G, and it was no walk in the park. Now I'm going through it with Ripley, the GW. A firm NO, and the evil eye work great, so much so that he now says it himself after he's grabbed me too hard again. :30:...and then he laughs.....like a Hyena.

Well, once again, I think the terrible twos are a myth... this is simply the point where they start seeing how far they can push the boundaries. If they can't, they won't. Boundary setting becomes UBER important at this age.

It's like lunging is just a way of testing to see who jumps, and who doesn't...

What can I get away with.

Macaw training is a life long thing. Sometimes you just need to go back to the basics and reinforce them. Go back to basic bite pressure training with the GW.

What you are describing is a macaw game that you are not interested in playing with him. Don't play. The games stop when he does that. Then distract him with a game you do want to play.

Trick training sometimes helps instill discipline at this age, if he is interested in that sort of thing.

My conures loved it. My macs, not so much.

 

[Birdman666]

Try this:

When he flies to you, just assume he is going to do that, and just press the palm of your hand to his beak, and "beak wrestle" with him (shake his head from side to side) without allowing him to latch on to anything. Then start another game...

 

[JerseyWendy]

Hey Blanca...wanna trade? JUST kidding!!!!

 

[JerseyWendy]

Try this:

When he flies to you, just assume he is going to do that, and just press the palm of your hand to his beak, and "beak wrestle" with him (shake his head from side to side) without allowing him to latch on to anything. Then start another game...

Thank you kindly!! I shall give that a try. He LOVES beak wrestling, and is actually quite gentle when we play that way.