We really need to talk about parrot aggression and training methods.

I know one thing with certainty: If I FORCED any of my parrots to do something against their will, I would undoubtedly BREAK the trust they have in me.

I am a firm believer in TRAINING. IMO THE single most important thing to train is the "step up" and "step down". Keeping sessions short, and ending on a positive note will keep the bird interested and wanting to learn more.

The vast majority of birds/macaws entering into a new home WILL be scared, and I would never even begin training until the bird feels comfortable, secure, and is used to his/her new routine and surroundings. Why rush things, when you have a lifetime together? Trust can't be forced, it must be earned. :)

And you are absolutely right - birds don't know dominance, they are flock creatures. They don't climb onto the highest point because they feel "superior" or "dominant". No, they climb up high so they can see everything better, so they can assess their space.

Granted, I'm still in the learning stage with my big macs, I've only had Niko for 4 years, and Ripley since January. I do, however, have had my YN Amazon for close to 15 years. NONE of my birds are cage aggressive, and I think this is because they feel safe and secure in the entire home, WITH me, and have no reason to defend their castle. :)

TLC and an understanding will always go much further than any issues that are done with force.

Ok, I'll climb down my pedestal now....as gracefully as possible. :eek:
 
Amen, well said ! I agree 100% , as I posted about this same topic on an Eclectus thread the other day. People get new birds and expect them to step up and be nice the very first few minutes they get home with them. Then they question why they get bitten, then they blame the bird for being aggressive. It's not the bird that is aggressive, it is the human ! You MUST allow the bird time to acclimate to the new enviroment before you expect to take the bird from its cage. You MUST build trust first !!!
 
HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!!!



Agree 100%


I have the most incredible relationship with my macaw, he has never shown one sign of aggression, he is not cage aggressive, he loves strangers, he is just wonderful..

Why? Because i NEVER forced him to do something, i never made him unhappy, i did every thing slow and steady..

These creatures are so intelligent, we need to earn their trust, not just force it out of them!!

The breeders called Fargo feral and said he wasn't friendly... I think it's just because no one had earnt his trust, they hadn't respected him and waited until he was ready.. Which is now why Fargo has SO much love to give!


Birds like being up high... Because they are a bird, they aren't trying to dominate, in the wild they are in the sky, and in trees..


I have only had Fargo for a year and a bit, so i have alot to learn, but still, all his training and love has come with patience and love...


You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar ;)

In the long run i would rather have a slow relationship build to complete love and trust, rather than quickly make the bird like you.. :)
 
Exactly Heather!! There is a reason the birds bite aggressively, a happy bird that loves you wouldn't lunge and attack you for no reason.. It is our fault, but people don't realise that then they just sell the bird because they think it is evil!

Kinda like horses, people thought my horse was bad because i had an accident on him, maybe i should of just read the warning signs during our training because i could tell he wasn't focused and happy like he usually was!

A bad trainers blames the animal, a good trainer blames themself ;)
 
I agree completely with your spirit of respect and compassion, but I think you paint a bit too broadly. Clipping a bird's wings can be a very helpful tool in forging a bond with a new parrot and building trust. Holding a bird with a towel is sometimes necessary and does not harm the bird.

Ultimately, all of us here are owners of CAPTIVE birds. There's no basis for any of us to claim moral superiority over other parrot owners based on personal preference in training methods, with the exception of legally proscribed cruel or inhumane treatment.
 
Tab, can I please ask you to post that most AWESOME video of Fargo...you know...the latest one with all the tricks....NOT the fox one. :30:

That will show what love, patience, positive reinforcement, trust and a remarkable bond can achieve. :)....and I know you are still teaching him more.... :D
 
Haha why not the fox one ? ;)



THIS is what you can do if you take it slow and steady, and show the bird lots of love and patience :)

It is all about trust and time!

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y7hr3ZQojc&feature=youtu.be]Fargo the blue and gold macaw training tricks - YouTube[/ame]
 
What a beautiful boy Fargo is! So enjoyed the video:)
 
Tab, I have to say something....I knew Fargo knew tricks I just didn't know HOW MANY AND HOW WELL he knows them!!!

you have done such an amazing job with Fargo, he is always such a joy to watch, it just goes to show what trust can achieve.

I for one do not know much about training, of course I'm always willing to learn :)
I have a Jardine here, that came to me 4 months ago, and I have never forced her to do anything. she now steps up, no more lunging or trying to take my fingers off, flies to my shoulder, takes food from my fingers, and misses me when I am not in sight.
If you take the time to train, patience and love will reign over anything else.
 
I really enjoyed reading this post. Even though I don't have a macaw I can kind of relate this to my lovebird. I haven't done much in the way of training but she does feel attached enough to fly to me whenever she feels insecure or just wants to be with me. I think I achieved this just by never making her do something that she was comfortable with.

Hopefully in the not so distant future I can have a relationship like this with a macaw haha
 
Lil Caity413, I wish there were a multiple 'Thank You' button! Your post said it all. I've kept animals all my life and have always worked on the principle that they are *animals*. You can't expect them to think like humans, but we can surely study them and learn to think as they do. It's the only way.

Forcible restraint, punishment and other methods that birds can't compute are only going to result in a damaged bird and a non-trusting relationship. Sure, the bird can be forced to comply, but at what cost? I hate to think anything I might do to or for my birds could cause them pain or confusion or fear. I don't think this is girly-touchy-feely sentimental clap-trap (as I was once accused of). I think it's the most effective, efficient way to gain a good, workable relationship with a creature.

As you said, Barbara Heidenreich is a great example. I was stunned to see the simple, bleedingly-obvious way she taught a big mac to step up. She simply held the end of the perch with her hand and lured the bird off the perch and onto her arm with treats. It took less than five minutes and did not involve her going 'stepupstepupstepupstepup' or getting frustrated or the bird wanting to bite. At all times, the mac was fully engaged in his aim to get food and had no fear. Why use any other method?

I had never heard of beak-grabbing as a 'training' method, but it would be the equivalent of being seized from behind and handcuffed! If that happened to me, I would certainly comply, but I would *hate* the one who did it to me! Another poster mentioned that sometimes we need to towel our birds for medical purposes. That's true, and one of the things I do with my birds is expose them to the towel and teach them it's not a monster. This process has been slow and isn't complete yet, but I have to travel at the birds' pace, not my own.

I think the point you made about the macaw being hosed was the most important one of all. We generally look for our advice and instruction from experienced handlers. Once upon a time, experienced handlers used to hobble and twitch horses. Experienced handlers would cut their tails off. Experienced handlers would use harsh bits and devices like gags and chambons to tie them into submission. We have learned that more humane methods are far more effective and efficient, yet there are those who will not listen and will not learn. If we could all err on the side of kindness, I think it's hard to go wrong.

Thank you very much for posting this thread! It's timely and one that should be revisited often in the interest of all those rescue birds out there who were brought up by people who thought themselves 'experienced handlers'.
http://www.parrotforums.com/members/lil_caity413.html
 
On public forums you'll get all sorts of opinions. Your only recourse is to keep putting your own out there. I agree with what you've said. In my experience with my different animals, one thing I believe is that they aren't getting trained - I'm getting trained in how to deal with them. When I learn stuff, they just become more bearable as a consequence. You get similar requests in relation to all sorts of pets. How do I "fix" this naughty/disobedient/annoying blah blah blah insert-name-of-pet. The pet is blamed and the owner just wants it "sorted" by reference to the pet party in the relationship. Often, you can "fix" them by fixing yourself.
 
My toes are very thick. I don't take offense at this at all. But it depends on the bird, and the level of aggression you are dealing with. Not to argue, but here is my rebuttal on some of this. I can understand people have issues with some of my training methods. We can agree to disagree on some of this.

First: It hasn't been necessary for me to EVER put Maggie on the floor, and that bird hadn't been handled in 8 years when I got her. This is not a first resort. I raised my red front and my CAG from an egg. I never had to put them on the floor either.

This is what you do when you have birds that are potentially dangerous. I was rehabbing birds that were inflicting serious physical injury, including two that inflicted so much damage, that the person who was dumb enough to shoulder an aggressive biter, needed facial reconstructive surgery!

Trust issues work both ways! We have to learn to trust each other.

Sprocket, another greenwing, had no manners. He went to the floor about 10 times before he got the message that I wasn't going to put up with his nonsense. He is now fine with me. People who don't stand up to him tend to get pinched... sometimes to the point of breaking the skin. Not acceptable behavior in my book. One afternoon with me, and the bad behavior stopped.
And he stepped up to me every time without biting. Sat on my arm and did his little dance. Put his head on my shoulder for an extended head scratch... How is that possible, if I destroyed his trust by putting him on the floor?!

I think this one depends on the bird. If the bird is biting to the point of inflicting stitches, then I think some practical method has to be used to prevent that from happening. And if a bird is flying in someone's face and attempting to rip their lips off, I'm sorry he gets clipped until he learns to behave. I see these as basic safety issues.

Toweling a bird does not hurt it. (Otherwise, how would you groom it?) But it does demonstrate to a large and in charge biter, that he is NEITHER... Yeah, you could bite the crap outta me bird, but I could wring your scrawny little neck too... BUT I WOULD NEVER DO THAT TO YOU. I WON'T HURT YOU, BUT I DAMNED SURE WILL NOT LET YOU TERRORIZE THE HOUSEHOLD! So I don't see toweling as a trust issue.

Using two fingers to prevent a bird from biting you is not invasive, nor does it hurt the bird. Again, we are dealing with biters here, not the annoying pinching thing, but I am off to the ER to have my finger sown up or surgically re-attached. Once the bird is tamed and trustworthy it is not necessary. Hell, I pick my big mac up by the beak when she wanders down and waddles over to me!

And if a greenwing or similar sized bird is getting down on the floor and chasing people around and biting feet... you need to do something to correct the behavior. I've seen them de-glove toes!

IN THE WILD, THE OTHER BIRDS IN THE FLOCK WOULD MASS AND BEAT THE CRAP OUTTA THE BIRD WHO WAS VIOLATING FLOCK ETTIQUITE... AND THAT BIRD MAY ALSO BE SHUNNED AND GO WITHOUT THE PROTECTION OF THE FLOCK IF HE DIDN'T GET IN LINE WITH THE REST OF THEM... So, like it or not, this is, actually, part of a natural flock dynamic, and a basic instinct. This is how wild birds teach other wild birds to behave when they don't. (Mother nature can be a cold hearted B--- sometimes.)

And if I had not forced my Red Lored Amazon to come out of her cage, she would still be cage bound. We tried the slow way with her for 8 months prior to the time I took her and it didn't work. So I tried Mr. Towel. Four months later she went from the worst biter anyone could remember dealing with to an out and about trained bird, that anyone could handle.... And this is the bird that curls up on my shoulder at night and puts her head upside down against my cheek. Did I destroy her trust in me? Or did I have to butt heads with her for a few months, to improve her manners, so that I could give her the quality of life she deserved?! 8 months and nothing, half the time, and she was not cage bound, not biting, recalled, startle trained, outside trained, car seat trained, and would go to anyone without biting... She was stubborn, and would have sat there in that cage the rest of her life without allowing anyone to ever come near her again, if I had not done what I did. But this bird was badly abused, and was so phobic and dangerous that she was taken to the vet to be destroyed, which is how I got her...

THIS WAS A BIRD THAT INFLICTED SERIOUS DEGLOVING INJURIES ON TWO PEOPLE - THE FORMER OWNER, AND THE PERSON AT THE RESCUE WHO TRIED TO WORK WITH HER THE SLOW WAY...
I HANDLED HER WITH A TOWEL AT FIRST, AND SHE SHREDDED THE TOWEL, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN MY ARM HAD THE TOWEL NOT BEEN WRAPPED AROUND IT!!!


Sometimes it is necessary.

One size does not fit all.

Yes, try the less invasive methods first, I absolutely agree with that statement.

But absolutely do not reinforce the biting!

And this isn't about punishment. This is about reinforcing the NO BITING. You aren't punishing the bird. You are letting him know in no uncertain terms that he is not allowed to bite you if he is on your arm, and if he attempts it, there will be immediate consequences that he does not like. When he steps up nice and plays nice, HE GETS REWARDED...

Like the screaming protocols: Yes you cover the cage, but the whole point of the protocol is to UNCOVER THE CAGE AND REWARD THE BIRD WHEN HE IS QUIET....

So, it both the positive and the negative gets reinforced. You are attempting to shape behavior here. You don't send mixed signals. You send clear messages, and reward the good.
 
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strudel said:
On public forums you'll get all sorts of opinions. Your only recourse is to keep putting your own out there. I agree with what you've said. In my experience with my different animals, one thing I believe is that they aren't getting trained - I'm getting trained in how to deal with them. When I learn stuff, they just become more bearable as a consequence. You get similar requests in relation to all sorts of pets. How do I "fix" this naughty/disobedient/annoying blah blah blah insert-name-of-pet. The pet is blamed and the owner just wants it "sorted" by reference to the pet party in the relationship. Often, you can "fix" them by fixing yourself.
Click to expand...

IF WE ALL AGREED ON EVERYTHING LIFE WOULD BE VERY BORING...

Opinions are exactly that, and the free exchange of ideas is useful, whether you agree with them or not. If only to put things into perspective as to why you disagree with them.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. I am not offended by anyone who disagrees with me, or my methods.
 
tab_xo said:
HEAR HEAR!!!!!!!!!!


I have the most incredible relationship with my macaw, he has never shown one sign of aggression, he is not cage aggressive, he loves strangers, he is just wonderful..

Why? Because i NEVER forced him to do something, i never made him unhappy, i did every thing slow and steady..

These creatures are so intelligent, we need to earn their trust, not just force it out of them!!

In the long run i would rather have a slow relationship build to complete love and trust, rather than quickly make the bird like you.. :)
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, some macaws were not raised like yours. And Fargo is not a dominant male Greenwing... those birds exist, and if you give in to a dominant male greenwing, he continues to display more and more dominant behavior with you, until someone takes a trip to the ER. If he is shown immediately, when he tries that stuff, that he is not the big bad dominant male he thought he was, he doesn't do it anymore. On some levels, it really is that simple.

Being intelligent creatures, they sometimes KNOW FULL WELL their owners cannot, or will not do anything to control them. Then, like out of control toddlers, they throw tantrums, bite, and scream to get their way... and the owners inadvertently reinforce that... So it is a learned behavior. It's something they have been inadvertently taught, that they need to unlearn before they become dangerous.

When you see a bird quite literally take someone's finger off, and you have to pack it on ice and ship her off to the hospital, hoping they can reattach it, it leaves an impression....

When you see someone whose face has been rearranged by a bird that probably never belonged on their shoulder, it makes an impression...

When you see a bird that gets down on the floor and chases adults around, attempting to inflict serious injury.... (because they won't do anything to stop it, or prevent it from happening!)

I've made two trips to the ER myself working with these kinds of birds.

We're not talking about your Fargo, or my Maggie, or Sweepea here...

We are talking about parrots who were never properly socialized to begin with, and are usually angry and pretty stubborn about allowing anyone to handle them ever....

Those are the kinds of birds you butt heads with.

Fargo isn't one of those. Neither is my Maggie.

I have said there are two kinds of Macaws. Mush macs, and not mush macs.

These are the "not" variety.

Not yet anyway.

And you're not "fixing" them. You are teaching them how to peacefully coexist with people, safely, in a captive environment.
 
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Betrisher said:
As you said, Barbara Heidenreich is a great example. I was stunned to see the simple, bleedingly-obvious way she taught a big mac to step up. She simply held the end of the perch with her hand and lured the bird off the perch and onto her arm with treats. It took less than five minutes and did not involve her going 'stepupstepupstepupstepup' or getting frustrated or the bird wanting to bite. At all times, the mac was fully engaged in his aim to get food and had no fear. Why use any other method?

http://www.parrotforums.com/members/lil_caity413.html
Click to expand...

BECAUSE THE RUBY MACAW I REHABBED WOULD ACT LIKE SHE WAS GOING TO TAKE THE TREAT FROM YOUR HAND, AND THEN AT THE LAST SECOND GRAB YOUR FINGER AND TRY TO TEAR IT OFF...

That's one reason.

This stuff works with tame, and not trusting. This doesn't work so well, with not tame, and wanting to vent it's frustration at people on someone...
 
Betrisher said:
I had never heard of beak-grabbing as a 'training' method, but it would be the equivalent of being seized from behind and handcuffed! If that happened to me, I would certainly comply, but I would *hate* the one who did it to me! Another poster mentioned that sometimes we need to towel our birds for medical purposes. That's true, and one of the things I do with my birds is expose them to the towel and teach them it's not a monster. This process has been slow and isn't complete yet, but I have to travel at the birds' pace, not my own.

http://www.parrotforums.com/members/lil_caity413.html
Click to expand...

YOU DON'T GRAB THE BEAK. You use two fingers on the top of the beak to step him up, so that you can control the biting. Once he steps up, you use those same two fingers to push the beak away if he attempts to latch on to you and draw blood. Again, this is for a bird that tends to lunge or latch on when stepping up.

Again, the push pull method:

An aggressive bird who is lunging is leaning forward and will tend to be off balance. You use two fingers on the beak, and get him off balance. He has to step forward to keep his balance. Your arm is underneath him when he does. The bird has just learned:

That's:
1. I'm not afraid of you, bird.
2. Step up.
3. No biting.
 
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Birdman666 said:
When you see a bird that gets down on the floor and chases adults around, attempting to inflict serious injury.... (because they won't do anything to stop it, or prevent it from happening!)
....
Click to expand...

This has actually happened to me. Not with a big mac, but THE meanest, biggest YN Amazon I have EVER seen. :eek:

He was fully flighted when he was given to me, and he would truly dive bomb STRAIGHT into your (well...MY) face, beak wide open. He would do this each and every time he got out - and he took EVERY opportunity to get out. This bird meant business. He also meant harm. I am not exaggerating in the least, I swear! He would demolish any perch I'd try to get him to step up to. He even chewed through a towel. :eek:

Cleaning his cage was a daily nightmare. I called it Fright Fest. :11:

Yes, I clipped him. Then he resorted to RUNNING after me via foot, beak wide open, wings spread, FULL speed demon on my heels.

I named him RAMBO. :54:......and gave him to my GF with whom he actually developed a VERY good relationship. Go figure that one!!!
 
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