Talk me out of getting a large macaw!

[EdgesofTwilight]

It's true that BTMs have to be sold in state only though I'd think it would be hard to enforce.

So if I wanted to get a BTM from one of the well respected breeders, I can't have him/her shipped? If I get a BTM, looks like I'll be making a trip to Texas then

 

[Christinenc2000]

I maybe mistaken but was told you will now need a permit to obtain one. Here is the write up

Federal Register, Volume 78 Issue 192 (Thursday, October 3, 2013) 2013 Federal Register, 78 FR 61208-61219; Centralized Library: U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service -


Captive Breeding The Service does not regulate captive breeding of listed species. This means that you are not prohibited from continuing to breed these birds. However, the Act does prohibit interstate and foreign sales, certain other interstate and foreign commercial activities, imports, and exports without a Service permit. Therefore, if you intend to sell any progeny, you will either need to sell them within the State the birds were bred to someone residing in the same State or, if intending to sell the birds outside the State where they were bred, you will need to obtain a Service permit. In addition, to be in compliance with the Act and its implementing regulations at 50 CFR Part

 

[Christinenc2000]

Commercial Use The Act does not prohibit intrastate (within a State or U.S. territory) sale, offer for sale, or certain other intrastate activities of an endangered species. But, among other things, it does prohibit interstate (between States and U.S. territories) sale, offer for sale, and certain other activities such as transport in the course of a commercial activity of endangered species. If a person in the course of a commercial activity can demonstrate that such sale or other commercial use enhances the propagation or survival of the species, or that it is for scientific research, he or she may apply for a permit for these activities. Because interstate commercial use of endangered species is generally prohibited, if you wish to sell or otherwise commercially use your macaw(s), you would have to either sell the bird(s) to someone who resides within your home State, commercially use the bird within your State, or apply for a permit for interstate sale or commercial use of your bird(s). In addition, to be in compliance with the Act, any advertisements for the sale of your birds should include a statement that no sale involving parties from another state can be consummated until a permit has been obtained from the Service.

 

[EdgesofTwilight]

It seems they can be sold out of state if the breeder has the proper service permit.
Doesn't seem to need a permit if you own the bird as a "pet"

 

[Christinenc2000]

It seems they can be sold out of state if the breeder has the proper service permit.

That's the way I read it. They want to keep track of them.

 

[Bartleby]

Selling/buying a BTM across statelines is illegal. Obtaining a permit entitling a breeder to do so is extremely difficult and expensive, the permits are reserved for those breeding for conservation purposes and/or zoo type situations. In talking with a number of federal agents the regulations could also be read that not only must the seller possess a permit, but the buyer must as well. It would be impossible for a pet home to obtain said permit.

People also need to be aware that there are about 18 or 20 states at last count that make it illegal to own any species listed under the ESA. When thinking about getting one of these guys you need to be intimately familiar with not only federal, but your state regulations as well.

As someone said, the law is vague and extremely difficult to enforce, but all it takes is one nosy agent, one bitter person and your bird will be confiscated....and destroyed, that's how they deal with what are deemed "illegally" obtained birds.

I live in a state with no BTM breeders, I have a BTM that was obtained after the regulations were put in place. It's doable, but you have to be very careful, navigating the system is lengthy and difficult, and my number one suggestion is to not publicly discuss the intimate details. Don't name names, don't give specifics, in fact I did not even talk about my girl until long after the deal was done....it sucks, but you cannot be too careful.

 

[GreatBlue320]

This is getting complicated

Rita told me that she could not ship a BTM to me because it is illegal for her to sell BTMs across state lines. But, if we came to get a BTM, it was legal for us to take her home as our bird.

I don't understand how it would be illegal to own a BTM as a pet if bird stores and breeders are selling them to individuals. It would be easy to track these sellers down since many of them advertise BTMs on their websites.

I'm confused!

 

[Bartleby]

This is getting complicated

Rita told me that she could not ship a BTM to me because it is illegal for her to sell BTMs across state lines. But, if we came to get a BTM, it was legal for us to take her home as our bird.

I don't understand how it would be illegal to own a BTM as a pet if bird stores and breeders are selling them to individuals. It would be easy to track these sellers down since many of them advertise BTMs on their websites.

I'm confused!

Point blank, you shouldn't be posting these conversations publicly. In the event of a legal case all these public postings are evidence of what may or may not have occurred.

Also, that information is incorrect. The sale across statelines is illegal. It's why all ads for BTMs must say "sale only to residents of ______" whatever state the breeder is in. You are a resident of CT, it does not matter if you travel to CA, you are still an out of state resident and that makes the sale an out of state sale....and illegal.

Many, many, many breeders do not even know the regulations. They can be confusing and there are lots of rumors swirling around about what they supposedly say, but the letter of the law is as posted above.

I am also 99% certain that CT is one of the states that further regulates the possession of ESA species...maybe not, but I believe it was on the list. You need to do this research and take steps to protect yourself. Will something happen? Very, very doubtful. Could something happen? Absolutely and the "fix" could be very costly, financially and emotionally.

ETA: On thee federal level it is not about whether it is "legal to own one", the federal regulations have no say on that matter. The federal regs are all about the commercial aspects of ESA species. If money changes hands (in anyway) across state lines in reference to an ESA species....that is the regulated aspect. Which means you are free to travel/move anywhere with your bird as long as the travel or move is not commercial in nature. It also means listed species can be "given" to anyone anywhere, so if I willed my bird to a relative in another state that is legal. If I rehomed, without a fee, to someone in another state that is also legal.

On the other hand, a number of states DO say it is not legal to privately possess ESA species....this is something that even fewer people are aware of. There's a FB group devoted to this, as when they were proposing the status change noone even realized that on the state level a lot of birds that were in homes prior to the change (and thus not affected by the fed regs) would suddenly become illegal....there are very, very few grandfather clauses.

 

[Birdman666]

If the sale is made within California, and YOU the buyer then take the bird with you out of state their is nothing at all illegal about that. It is your bird and no one is going to come take the bird away from you.

There are state laws which prohibit certain species... Quakers for example are illegal in California.

Check with the state of ct to be sure. I'm sure its posted.

As a practical matter, these laws are not really enforced, and there is no money in the budget for enforcement. They don't even enforce the cases that desperately need enforcing...

This is one of those black helicopters coming to take our guns away issues.

 

[Bartleby]

If the sale is made within California, and YOU the buyer then take the bird with you out of state their is nothing at all illegal about that.

Wrong. It does not matter, I repeat does not matter, where the physical sale takes place...it matters entirely where the buyer and seller are residents. If you do not believe me, talk to Wendy...she is intimately familiar with the regulations...and helped me extensively in obtaining my girl.

How quickly we also forget. Do you remember JerseyWendy's post not that long ago about F&G knocking on her door? It happens, it's rare, but it happens.

 

[Mysterygirl]

$5190 for the size that Wendy's pterodactyls will fit in.

Welcome to Animal Environments

Wow, the cage I bought for Edgar is (rounding) 1800.00, I paid a lot less.
Just bought the same one for Piper.
Definitely shop around.

 

[GreatBlue320]

Well, I think my hopes of getting a BTM are now shattered.

 

[Bartleby]

Well, I think my hopes of getting a BTM are now shattered.

Please don't say that. Just do the research, start now, there are tons of resources avail. Talk to breeders, talk to F&G. While it will take some time, its doable...I did it!!!!!!! Its so worth it, what's a few weeks/months of research to set yourself up for the next 50+ years of BTM ownership?

 

[Birdman666]

The state of NJ has the most draconian parrot laws in the country. And they have an anal retentive animal control beurocracy to go with it.

California, where I lived for 30 + years, has ZERO resources for the enforcement of bird laws.

There are no parrot registration or licensing requirements in CA, and I doubt there are any in CT.

They cannot sell them across state lines. The sales transaction must occur within the state.

 

[Mysterygirl]

Oh my gosh, Aviary Adventures isn't really that far from me. So, anyone going there can either stop by and say hi or stay over for the night.
We have a camper trailer we use as a guest house.

 

[Birdman666]

Well, I think my hopes of getting a BTM are now shattered.

When in doubt call the feds. I think someone is interpreting this law in a restrictive fashion.

Oh, and by the way, Rachel's BTM, Spike, came from Wendy. Rachel was in Colorado at the time. Wendy was in Texas. So, I know for a fact Wendy has...l played with one.

This sounds like misinformation to me. I am not aware of ANY BTM confiscations, on any level, state or federal under this statute, unless it was border patrol, and they were smuggled birds. It just doesn't happen.

 

[JerseyWendy]

You've received some PHENOMENAL feedback here, GreatBlue. Please do not be discouraged. But I will also urge you to make phone calls and do it the legal way. It is entirely doable.

Yes, Fish and Wildlife DID show up at my door - unannounced, I should add, and I about poopied my diaper. BUT - all my fids are registered, and I had all necessary documents to prove it.
http://www.parrotforums.com/off-topic/53521-when-fish-wildlife-come-knocking-unannounced.html

 

[GreatBlue320]

Thank you everyone, I'm going to continue to research the law to see if there is a legal way to get my BTM. If there isn't, then I'm going to have to choose another type of birdie.

 

[Christinenc2000]

I agree make the call best way to get it legal and no doubt.

Oh and If you get one I think you should name him/ her Outlaw after reading this thread LOL

 

[Bartleby]

Well, I think my hopes of getting a BTM are now shattered.

When in doubt call the feds. I think someone is interpreting this law in a restrictive fashion.

Oh, and by the way, Rachel's BTM, Spike, came from Wendy. Rachel was in Colorado at the time. Wendy was in Texas. So, I know for a fact Wendy has...l played with one.

Rachel's BTM was obtained before the BTM was reclassified in 2013! So her case is not applicable. Nor is anyone else's who has purchased or obtained a BTM before Nov 2013.

And, once again, breeders are required by federal regulation to ensure that the buyer is a resident of the state where the bird is being sold. I am not interpreting anything, have spoken extensively with every single BTM breeder mentioned in this thread (which includes Rita and Wendy...who helped ensure I was doing everything legal as I obtained my BTM in 2014) and dealt with numerous government representatives both on the Federal and State levels.

There is a lot of misinformation being spewed out there, people hearing something and running with it. When the status was first changed everyone kept saying it would be illegal to transport the bird, so people were thinking they could never relocate, go visit family, etc and what not. There were numerous discussions all over about this, in fact some people still say it. Now we've got people claiming its fine to buy the bird as long as the sale in in the breeder's state.

The law is actually pretty darn clear, traveling to buy the bird not legal...period. So much so that the law actually spells out that ads must state "Sales to residents of _____" only, not "sales in state of _____ only". The residency is a key requirement, breeders have a list of acceptable documents to prove residency and they are supposed to keep copies of those docs that can be provided should questions arise.

In practice do breeders follow these regs? Many/most probably do not, but it does not change the fact that the law requires them. Then there is the aspect of enforcement and how authorities could prove that such bird was actually illegally obtained.

And yes, in CA there are plenty of regulations regarding parrots, just because you are not aware of them doesn't mean they aren't on the books and aren't enforced. Ask Omar about the regs and paperwork involved in selling BTMs now. He may have found another source, but in early 2014 he had to stop carrying them because his supplier was from FL and he could not legally obtain them any longer. He even had state regulators show up and question the origin of the one older bird he still had for sale...he had to prove that it was obtained before the reclassification.