Senegal parrot horrible story

[Seagulls]

Yes, absolutely. It surprised us, as I thought they are not the foraging kind. This happened specifically in the last 2-3 days. Before that, they almost never ventured there. We mistakenly thought they were feeling more confident.

The fluffiness was there from day one though.

Edit: Nadi, who died first, was wandering around on the bottom a lot more than Ollie, whom I saw there only once or twice.

Sorry to say, but that behavior can be a big red flag of a sick bird. Some species like cockatoos are at home on the ground as much as in the air, so harder to tell with them. But smaller birds like Senegals and Conures don't typically hang out at the bottom of the cage unless they're not feeling so good or are playing with foot toys/the cage lining.

My only warning that my GCC, Maria, was sick was that I found her at the bottom of her cage, all fluffed up and wandering. Rushed her to the avian vet immediately. Even then, she nearly died in my hands that night.

There's a chance that even if you had taken the birds into the vet right away, that they still wouldn't have made it. My GCC survived her infection, but it was a really close call.

EDIT: Really sounds to me like your birds were sick from the start. You couldn't have known.

 

[MonicaMc]

Only things that pop out are soil and water then, unless they were sick to begin with... which is another possibility, too.


I really hope the necropsies have some answers for you!

 

[MsPony]

Ask your pet store for their health records, we (pet stores) have to keep hand feeding logs and daily health records once weaned, and we have to provide you with them when asked!

It sounds like they could have been sick and unfortunately you didn't know the signs

 

[Pajarita]

What, exactly, is the name of the plant you have in the cage? Because, as I replied on the 'other' forum, it seems to me that they ingested something that caused them to lose the ability to clot (like mouse poison, the droppings of a mouse that ate the poison, sweet clover, rosary pea, jack bean, uncooked beans, etc).

 

[WideO]

Quick answer as I have to go cooking: the plant is known as the creeping inchplant ( example here: Creeping Inchplant ?Turtle? ? bird treats | Plants from Spalding Bulb ), and should be non-toxic.

In the mean time we have seen the seller, and they were absolutely supportive and want to make it right for us. They did ask about the food and agreed that there was nothing that could explain the disease. The plant mentioned above is sold by them BTW. Mice or other animals never had access to the plant, as it went from the shop into the car into the cage. The emergency vet knew the plant as well and classed it as absolutely safe/not relevant to the situation. (but still, the soil?...)

The shop did contact the breeder, and although he couldn't make the appointment today, he said something interesting, but I can't divulge on that yet. He/they seemed to think "grit" might play a role in what happened. The general feel we got is that they somehow suspect the problems started way before we got the birds.

Needless to say, we do not want any replacement birds as long as we don't know exactly what happened; and right now I'm not even sure I want to go there again. The wound is a bit fresh. But it's positive that they seem to want to right a wrong.

To be continued...

 

[MonicaMc]

I saw the grit mentioned... but it did not appear to be a large part of the diet, so was skeptical to bring that up.

 

[DallyTsuka]

if grit caused an obstruction, even partial, it could have messed with the digestion, causing them to not get enough nutrients from the food they ate... which would explain being "starved". but for both birds at the same time?

 

[WideO]

Well... I'm pretty sure they were fed grit for at least 3 to 4 months. They even sold us a bag of 25kg of the stuff, and told us it was important to keep it available at all times for them. I put it in the cage (in a small bowl) on the first day, but removed it the second day after reading that Senegals most probably don't need it when they get a balanced diet.

Could that have caused (or contributed to) the problem? Both the shop and the breeder seemed to think so.

For clarity: I'm not just talking about the (small amount of) grit in the food; I'm talking about an extra bowl of pure grit, which they probably had available for months.

Edit: missed the last post; yes, it's still weird that it happened to both birds simultaneously.

 

[MonicaMc]

If grit was provided in large portions, then yes that could have done it.

Soluble grit is "ok" in small quantities, but it needs to be just that. Large quantities of grit have been found within the crops of wild parrots, but our captive parrots may not know how much is "ok" for them.

 

[SoCalWendy]

I am so sorry for your loss. What a horrible experience. Please don't beat yourself up. From what I have read so far, you were doing everything correct. Those babies may have come to you already sick. So wait and see what the tests reveal.

Like the others mentioned the constant sleepiness and puffiness is definitely a red flag, as well as wondering or sleeping on the bottom of the cage. My Senegal Rio, will forge for a piece of fruit or vegetable she dropped but she is rarely in the bottom of her cage. I can understand being sleepy to some degree because both of my birds ar a bit sleepy at the moment. But they are both molting too, one more then the other.

Your babies look young, how old were they when you purchased them? Did the store offer any type of guarantee? One of our birds stores here offer a 30 day guarantee, but you still have to get the bird looked at by a vet within a week or two of the purchase.

Please keep us updated, I am very interested in your story since I too have birds (Senegal)
I also looked at the plant that you put at the bottom of the cage. It even had two lovebirds on the cardboard pot it comes in, hence it looked by bird friendly. So I would be curios a out the soil. Don't know if you can test it, but that's an option. Again so sorry for you loss.

 

[WideO]

Sorry to say, but that behavior can be a big red flag of a sick bird.

No, you are absolutely right, and it's one of the mistakes we clearly made. It's all good to say that by the time we noticed the wandering they were probably already beyond help, but that doesn't excuse the fact I missed the relevance. Believe it or not, I only read about the wandering in clear terms - as some birds do it - the night before they died.

Ask your pet store for their health records, we (pet stores) have to keep hand feeding logs and daily health records once weaned, and we have to provide you with them when asked!

I may not have mentioned I'm from a small country in Europe, and I'm not sure what the legal requirements and/or standards are over here. Another red flag should have been that when we asked about their exact age, we didn't get a clear answer. From what we reconstructed (weaning/time spent in shop) they were between 5 and 6 months old.

The shop's owner was very unhappy with it all, and he made noises about unscrupulous breeders. He seemed genuine, and as mentioned we know them for a long time. It might not surprise me if he's through with selling parrots (that's the impression he gave me during our round-table meeting). He admitted not knowing anything about birds, and relies on two employees who are more knowledgeable about them. He quickly understood the mistake about the grit though, which made it clear to him that whatever the final cause is, they made a serious mistake telling us they absolutely needed it. The employee in question was also present, and seemed embarrassed as well about the grit. She was on the phone with the breeder, who told her that he had already had 2 birds die from too much grit. (I'm assuming they were all speaking with honesty.

Like the others mentioned the constant sleepiness and puffiness is definitely a red flag, as well as wondering or sleeping on the bottom of the cage.

Yes, guilty as charged. To my defense, the wandering/sleeping only happened in the last 2 days (so Friday/Saturday), but I should have been on my guard. It's one thing commenting about it to my wife ("hey, they wander around down there, I think that's not what they normally are supposed to do") but if that's not followed with action it doesn't mean much. Trust me however when I say it's a mistake I will surely never again make in my life.

That is, if I ever want another bird/birds. I'm sure you can all relate as owners, and although I knew how deep animals can get under your skin (I even have some kind of bond with my 15 year old turtle, who lets me push him under and keeps coming back for more...), but I was amazed at how defined their personalities were even at that young age. I was going to hold back as I had read the horror stories (like this one...), but they were so engaging that it was a lost cause after only a day.

The little guy was more reserved - they had told us that in the store as well - but when we opened the cage, and Nadi was already out, he suddenly flew straight at me, hopped on my finger, and lifted his leg. So much for keeping my distance.

We spent hours a day talking to them (they responded with a variety of chirpy sounds, sometimes very soft, almost clicking (?) ), they pushed each other out of the way for our attention... they were clearly not an "ornament" but striving to be a part of our family.

In the last week they also seemed to offer me food they picked up from their bowl. I thought I imagined things, but it happened 4 times. Is this a known behaviour? (or another sign...?) Anyway, I'm sure you get what I'm trying to say, that it was really an utter joy to have them around until the events on the last day.

Welling up now, pah! Thanks again for all your comments even though I have not responded to every individual post. I read them all and appreciate them and the help we got very very much.

Will keep you posted.

 

[Seagulls]

Judging by their weight and the thing about the grit... There was probably little chance they would have survived even if you'd taken them into the vet immediately. At least the two birds got to be in a home where they were loved for their last days. I do hope that you can enjoy life with these wonderful, truly intelligent and empathetic creatures again. Hopefully with a better ending.

 

[ruffledfeathers]

I also hope this very sad experience doesn't "scare you" away from getting another bird at some point. You clearly loved them in such a short time, and birds can thrive in a home with such love. Your first experience was just a heartbreaking one.

 

[mtdoramike]

Also may I point out, that you also said you own two Labrador dogs. You do realize Labrador dogs are BIRD DOGS. I'm not sure how this would have worked out. It would be nerve racking just trying to keep the bird and the dog separated.

I'm so sorry to hear of your loss though and hopefully you can get down to the bottom of this. But if there was massive internal bleeding, are you sure the dogs didn't get a hold of the birds. If you still have the dogs in the future and decide to get another bird, get a big enough bird like a Macaw which should intimidate the dogs.

 

[Echo]

So sorry for your loss!!

I have a few questions:
1- were they totally weaned when you got them (seems like the breeder provided the birds to the store and they were there about? 12 weeks?) I'm asking because they were underweight and even though they seemed to be eating, if they weren't weaned, they needed to be hand fed formula.)
2- can you see little beads(sometimes colored)in the soil of the plant? Which is fertilizer, that you see often on the top soil of a store bought plant. Curious parrots can ingest that thinking they are seeds. Poison.
3-if it was grit, wouldn't the first necropsy detect the impaction?
4- what is that black box to the left of the cage? (On the picture)

 

[WideO]

I think I cracked it...

Remember that even if we assume the grit caused problems, there was still the suddenness of both birds getting sick and dying simultaneously.

I think I killed them.

I was sitting at my pond just a couple of minutes ago, thinking about the hole case, about how "conveniently" wasn't "my fault", remembering all the horror stories about people accidentally wiping out their whole ponds with toxins or the introduction of sick fish, why I build a quarantine tank etc... when I had a sort of brain wave; a couple of days before the events, I was cleaning out my music studio in the back of the garden. It had developed a leak over the winter, and ruined most of the equipment. It also caused a lot of... mold.

I did make sure I washed myself after cleaning up there - mold like that can kill humans, or dogs, let alone birds. Especially birds who might already be weak, badly nourished, stressed from moving...

I might have accidentally introduced spores or mold on my clothes, which then was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I know I should wait for the autopsy, but as remarked, if it was the grit, why didn't the emergency vet see that this could have been the problem?

What if this had not one cause, but as happens so often, a combination of circumstances? I'm almost sure I got it right.

As for the labradors... I would not be stressed for a single second; but just like with humans, especially kids, I would never have let them alone with each other. FWIW they are retrievers, not killers. You don't have to believe me, but they have saved a couple of blackbirds that our cats were trying to maul. Cats and dogs also don't seem to go along, yet in our household (and not only here) the cats love the dogs more than they love us. They constantly want to be with them, sleep on top of them, present their butts for inspection... Frankly, I was a bit more worried about the cats. Oh well, you are right, and maybe your comment makes it easy for me to decide against trying to keep a bird alive a next time.

That said, there are plenty of examples of dogs living with parrots (even smaller ones), and where the problem often is that the parrots order the dogs around, calling their name etc. No, the dogs would not have been a problem.

The black box next to the cage is a speaker (and no, I didn't play music while they were with us and was wondering where I was going to move the stuff...).

No beads - that I would have caught. Although I would not again introduce such a variable into the situation, I think it's pretty safe. The mold in the studio on the other hand...

The reasoning behind the plant was to create a "rich environment" by the way. Animals normally thrive when you mimic their natural habitat, so I didn't want to make it all too sterile looking. But again, with what happened I would have left that for a later date.

I'm not sure about them being properly weaned; I do know now that they have been handled by tens of people/potential customers, some with birds at home, some who came there just to interact with the birds. I now know there were other parrots and other birds flying around the shop. I now know that thousands of people (it's a big big shop) must have gone past them while they were there. Yes, I should have known. It was a bad idea (in hindsight) to buy the birds there, and I clearly made my share of the mistakes.

I left the cage as it was on the night of the events. I figured there might be a clue. It's pretty empty, and every time I walk by I instinctively look for the birds. I miss their noise. But maybe I should just forget about the whole thing.

Or sleep a couple of nights over it.

Does the mold theory (combined with the rest) make sense?

 

[Pajarita]

I don't think that grit did it... unless something was mixed with it that shouldn't have been there. Grit is nothing but things like granite grit, sand, sea shells, charcoal and minerals like calcium, potassium, magnesium, etc. and depending on the proportion of each is more or less soluble. The less soluble can cause impaction and/or blockage but this is easy to see when you open up the bird and the vet did not mention anything of the kind. What he did mention was internal hemorrhages and the lining of the intestines been stripped away and this is not something that grit would cause. Some pathogens can cause the intestinal lining stripping (e coli, salmonella) as well as parasites like Giardia and coccidia - and they would also cause the weight loss and anemia but I've never read anything about them causing internal bleeding all over...

There was a lady about a year ago posting in several sites because she had a bird that died under the same circumstances and, when she had the necropsy done, the vets also found the bleeding and intestines lining erosion but I don't think she ever found out what had happened...



Just read your last posting. No, mold would not kill in a couple of days. Fungal infections take a long time to kill.

 

[SoCalWendy]

I think I cracked it...

Remember that even if we assume the grit caused problems, there was still the suddenness of both birds getting sick and dying simultaneously.

I think I killed them.

I was sitting at my pond just a couple of minutes ago, thinking about the hole case, about how "conveniently" wasn't "my fault", remembering all the horror stories about people accidentally wiping out their whole ponds with toxins or the introduction of sick fish, why I build a quarantine tank etc... when I had a sort of brain wave; a couple of days before the events, I was cleaning out my music studio in the back of the garden. It had developed a leak over the winter, and ruined most of the equipment. It also caused a lot of... mold.

I did make sure I washed myself after cleaning up there - mold like that can kill humans, or dogs, let alone birds. Especially birds who might already be weak, badly nourished, stressed from moving...

I might have accidentally introduced spores or mold on my clothes, which then was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I know I should wait for the autopsy, but as remarked, if it was the grit, why didn't the emergency vet see that this could have been the problem?

What if this had not one cause, but as happens so often, a combination of circumstances? I'm almost sure I got it right.

As for the labradors... I would not be stressed for a single second; but just like with humans, especially kids, I would never have let them alone with each other. FWIW they are retrievers, not killers. You don't have to believe me, but they have saved a couple of blackbirds that our cats were trying to maul. Cats and dogs also don't seem to go along, yet in our household (and not only here) the cats love the dogs more than they love us. They constantly want to be with them, sleep on top of them, present their butts for inspection... Frankly, I was a bit more worried about the cats. Oh well, you are right, and maybe your comment makes it easy for me to decide against trying to keep a bird alive a next time.

That said, there are plenty of examples of dogs living with parrots (even smaller ones), and where the problem often is that the parrots order the dogs around, calling their name etc. No, the dogs would not have been a problem.

The black box next to the cage is a speaker (and no, I didn't play music while they were with us and was wondering where I was going to move the stuff...).

No beads - that I would have caught. Although I would not again introduce such a variable into the situation, I think it's pretty safe. The mold in the studio on the other hand...

The reasoning behind the plant was to create a "rich environment" by the way. Animals normally thrive when you mimic their natural habitat, so I didn't want to make it all too sterile looking. But again, with what happened I would have left that for a later date.

I'm not sure about them being properly weaned; I do know now that they have been handled by tens of people/potential customers, some with birds at home, some who came there just to interact with the birds. I now know there were other parrots and other birds flying around the shop. I now know that thousands of people (it's a big big shop) must have gone past them while they were there. Yes, I should have known. It was a bad idea (in hindsight) to buy the birds there, and I clearly made my share of the mistakes.

I left the cage as it was on the night of the events. I figured there might be a clue. It's pretty empty, and every time I walk by I instinctively look for the birds. I miss their noise. But maybe I should just forget about the whole thing.

Or sleep a couple of nights over it.

Does the mold theory (combined with the rest) make sense?

I doubt it was the mold... My mind keeps going to the plant. Was there any fertilizer in the plant? You may have answered this but how long had the plant been in the cage? Where did you get the plant?

 

[MonicaMc]

WideO, I commend you for being an exceptional owner. It may not seem like it right now, but so many people, being unable to figure out the cause, would just go out and get another bird. Many people don't often do necropsies. In fact, a necropsy can be a very expensive procedure, often times being more than the birds themselves are worth... so people don't get them. The idea of their beloved pets being "torn apart" and their bodies desecrated is also another reason why owners may not get necropsies done.


You are doing right by trying to figure out the cause, trying to think of *anything* that might have killed them (if it was your fault, and not the fault of the breeder or store), and waiting before considering another bird(s).



As far as cats and dogs, yes it can work! Likewise, predator and prey may be fine in the same house for years, and one day, predator kills prey.

My dog is half akita and half (insert breed). Consensus seems to be pit, but some think lab. Interestingly enough he has the same exact name, spelled the same exact way (Kodi - not Cody, or Kody, but Kodi), as well as the same colors (but not patterns) as an akita x pit cross. My dog is a runt, so he doesn't have the big bulky stature of this dog (the other Kodi), nor that of his brother of the same color.

Considering the crosses and the breeds, you'd think he would be an aggressive dog that loves to chase small animals! Quite the opposite... he loves chasing, but he sucks at hunting. He will not approach a cat that does not run. He's often bullied by one of my own cats. (Squirt) He barks at people, but is afraid of anyone or anything that approaches him directly... including a 5# dog that ran up to him in the middle of the street barking its head off at him! (having a 75# dog frozen in terror in the middle of the street is kind of pathetic....)

Now, I have two cats. Male and female. Siblings. (hate dogs, hate other cats) The male, Squirt, is a hunter. His sister, Sprite, is not. When Squirt was around 4 months old or so, he brought home a dead California Quail. I don't know if he killed it or not, but I can say that rigor mortis had not yet set in. I was afraid to have the cats around the birds unsupervised. I know cats are hunters. (in fact, I lost my very first budgie to a different cat - just a bad situation at the time) Squirt loved to chase mice. He loved to play with mice (aka torturing them by letting them go and catching them again). Once the "batteries ran out", he was all sad that his "toy" stopping moving. He'd try to "encourage" it to move, but once he decided that the mouse was no more, he'd leave it on the ground... In short, I don't trust Squirt period.

Sprite on the other hand has proven herself to be "trust worthy". Multiple times when no one was home, she'd pull up the registers and crawl underneath the house, only to pop up in the bird room. I have no doubt in my mind that she freaked them out! At the time, I even had cage-free birds! So it was scary coming home, not knowing where she was, and she's in the bird room. I think she knows the difference between pet birds and wild birds, but as a hunter, she fails miserably! However, she's still a cat. She's still prone to chasing things. Yes, I do trust her, but not 100%.

We've gotten her to the point that she has stopped trying to pull up registers (screws and duct tape!), and thankfully, Squirt is too big boned to fit into the registers! (he could get as far as his hips! hilarious to walk into a room and you see a cat butt, tail and feet up in the air!)


Only you know your animals and their behaviors. Accidents can and do happen (everyone always needs to be aware of this, regardless), but only you know your own situation.

 

[WideO]

Just an update, now some dust has settled and some nerves have calmed down a bit.

I apologize for being a bit defensive on the dog comment BTW. Heat of the moment, apologies.

I don't think that grit did it... unless something was mixed with it that shouldn't have been there.

I think you are right. Yes, I think the grit is perfumed (this version is used at the bottom of the cage instead of newspaper etc.), but I don't think that played a (big) role.

There was a lady about a year ago posting in several sites because she had a bird that died under the same circumstances and, when she had the necropsy done, the vets also found the bleeding and intestines lining erosion but I don't think she ever found out what had happened...

And that's exactly what I'm a bit afraid of...

Just read your last posting. No, mold would not kill in a couple of days. Fungal infections take a long time to kill.

I didn't know that, so no, neither grit nor mold seem to have played a (big) role.

I doubt it was the mold... My mind keeps going to the plant. Was there any fertilizer in the plant? You may have answered this but how long had the plant been in the cage? Where did you get the plant?

The plant was purchased at the pet shop. It was put in on day one, but they only started playing with it in the second week. It doesn't seem to have contained fertilizer.

That said, I would never again introduce this at such an early stage (and perhaps never). As it was at the bottom, and they had fun with it, I assumed that's why they ventured around there. That and the "bird bad" I put down there.

WideO, I commend you for being an exceptional owner. It may not seem like it right now, but so many people, being unable to figure out the cause, would just go out and get another bird.

Yeah. My wife and I talked this over a lot in the last week. It was my birthday yesterday (the present, remember...), and we came to the conclusion that we should not let this beat us. Yes, we made mistakes, but we aren't totally clueless.

She did say however: I just don't want one or two other birds, I actually want *them* back. While impossible, it sums up my feelings as well.

We are still waiting for the results, but we already know we will not just get rid of the cage, but think about populating it again. It may not be from the same shop (however convenient), but it may well be Senegals again, as for us they tick all the right boxes.

My dog is half akita and half (insert breed). Consensus seems to be pit, but some think lab. Interestingly enough he has the same exact name, spelled the same exact way (Kodi - not Cody, or Kody, but Kodi), as well as the same colors (but not patterns) as an akita x pit cross. My dog is a runt, so he doesn't have the big bulky stature of this dog (the other Kodi), nor that of his brother of the same color.

Well, there's a bit of irony there. If we would/could ask our grandmothers or their mothers what the most gentle dogs are to watch over toddlers and children, they might say without hesitation: "Oh, you need a nanny-dog!"

Of course, these days we call those: pit bulls. Sure, they have been bred in many cases on aggression now, but they used to be incredibly gentle yet defensive dogs.

Only you know your animals and their behaviors. Accidents can and do happen (everyone always needs to be aware of this, regardless), but only you know your own situation.

Great story. And yeah, types of animals and breeds is one thing, next you have the individuals. Our dogs have been brought up with a maximum of respect in mind, giving them as much self-confidence as they can handle. A confident dog who feels at ease, is not afraid, is an awesome companion. We never punished them, but ignored bad behaviour and rewarded good ones - very much like we would have done with Nadi and Ollie. Patsy & Edie would not have hurt them one feather, I'm pretty sure of that.

Patsy (the female lab) understands about 200 words, and silently grunts back in conversations when it's her turn. We talk to them in full sentences (like we'd do with 5 year olds), and they scan every word to see if it means something to them. We'd ask "Don't you guys think it's time to go to your basket so the two of us can eat", they would think for a second, and go to their basket, feeling snug and happy.

The birds were already in their "pack", I had made a screen door so when we let the birds out, the dogs could see/follow/smell/hear through that door. After a while, when the 4 of them would be ready (and us...), we would have further introduced them.

Anyway, I might be around more to ask questions in view of populating that empty cage again. We still have some way to go, a bit of grief to swallow, and the test results might still change things, but we now think it would be wrong to decide: never again.

Thanks for letting us bounce our ideas off you.