Please read, many birds dead at rehab

[Kentuckienne]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

wow, Zupreem had made it out early on like they had retested the batches so that is a definite blow to any confidence. FDA or department of agriculture should force them to re-test.

Like has been said multiple times contamination could have been made after initial testing, unfortunately Zupreem would have to deal with a recall if that's the case, imagine any other animal and there would be a mob outside their offices demanding answers

No, a company representative answered that online and I saved it somewhere because it was so hard to believe. They did NOT retest. I suspected as much, because they kept saying they had "reviewed the test results" and I asked many, many times if that meant they had looked at earlier tests or had retested. They would never respond one way or the other.

 

[LordTriggs]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I must have interpreted their statement wrong, still seems it was misleading though.

If someone is able to conclusively prove it was zupreem (which right now the common trend is them) they're going to have a lot of explaining to do. They're just going to add to their problems by not just doing a second test and if they are to blame then they are to blame

 

[Terry57]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I am so sorry for the deaths of those poor birds, but after watching her videos showing half burned candles in the bird rooms, seeing her Gofundme post where she showed how she exposed every bird in her house to PBFD, reading how she did not feed the proper food for a week at Christmas & another week earlier in the year, she has zero credibility with me. If you are too busy to properly care for your birds, you shouldn't run a rescue. I have 3 times the birds she has, and I have never gone a week, or even a day without feeding them properly.
She also did not even take the sick birds to the vet for 4 weeks. Crucial info could have been gained if she had vetted her birds, as we all would have, yet she did not.
Zupreem was cleared by 2 separate independent labs. The air in her house was not tested for toxins for 6 weeks. The FD did a test for a couple of things, but not bug spray which is what the only 2 necropsies she did found the ingredients of.
After watching the sick ekkie the night of the deaths being poked around on the floor at 2:30 am as she tried to pet him, it showed me how little expertise she has with birds, especially sick ones.
I saw all this simply by watching her own videos. I have tried to stay out of this, but can no longer be silent. I fear for the birds still in her care, and just pray they are going to be okay.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I am so sorry for the deaths of those poor birds, but after watching her videos showing half burned candles in the bird rooms, seeing her Gofundme post where she showed how she exposed every bird in her house to PBFD, reading how she did not feed the proper food for a week at Christmas & another week earlier in the year, she has zero credibility with me. If you are too busy to properly care for your birds, you shouldn't run a rescue. I have 3 times the birds she has, and I have never gone a week, or even a day without feeding them properly.
She also did not even take the sick birds to the vet for 4 weeks. Crucial info could have been gained if she had vetted her birds, as we all would have, yet she did not.
Zupreem was cleared by 2 separate independent labs. The air in her house was not tested for toxins for 6 weeks. The FD did a test for a couple of things, but not bug spray which is what the only 2 necropsies she did found the ingredients of.
After watching the sick ekkie the night of the deaths being poked around on the floor at 2:30 am as she tried to pet him, it showed me how little expertise she has with birds, especially sick ones.
I saw all this simply by watching her own videos. I have tried to stay out of this, but can no longer be silent. I fear for the birds still in her care, and just pray they are going to be okay.

Can you provide some links?

1. I can't find any GoFundMe posts from them, in fact she says specifically on their FB for people NOT to start GoFundMe campaigns. They did have a post a couple years back about a cockatoo who was diagnosed with PBFD during quarantine, and that it got placed in a no-bird foster home. On their current website they discuss quarantine, and say that if they suspect a bird has PBFD they quarantine it offsite in a no-bird home. Most of the rescues I know have to quarantine birds onsite, and don't do it as carefully as B&B does.

2. I don't remember seeing any candles, which video is it in? Must have missed that one.

3. "Not feeding proper food" meant no fresh foods, but every one got their usual pellets and other food. The local Certified avian vet only feeds his birds organic pellets. I wish Gus would eat more fresh foods ... I'm lucky to get him to eat an occasional bite of fruit.

4. I don't get the "didn't take sick birds to vet for 4 weeks" ... the 11 birds died that night with no warning. Was that a separate incident?

5. Zupreem has NOT been cleared by two independent labs. The first rounds of tests wasn't able to identify a toxin, which is not the same thing as proving there was no toxin. It just means that they didn't find something using the tests they used, and there is no test that tests for everything at once.

6. No bug spray residues or ingredients of bug spray were found in any of the necropsied birds. The diagnosis was that the damage to the lungs was consistent with an organophosphate either inhaled or consumed as food. The test did not find any ingredients of bug spray in the dead birds. And if it were in the house, even months and months later bug spray would be detectable.

7. I don't know what I personally would do with a sick ekkie if I were in the midst of dealing with eleven dead parrots. I don't know how I'd even be functioning. Would I have had itt together well enough to at least video the sick bird, in case the symptoms would be helpful to a vet who might not be able to see the bird during the acute symptoms? That night was such a horrific event, and in the event of a crisis people do the best they can do in the moment. Sometimes we choose the right things and sometimes we don't. It's not a moment that's conducive to research and planning. You do what you have to do in that moment.

8. Zupreem could have done themselves a world of good by re-testing the batches of food in question, even if they were 100% sure it was fine. The other companies did so immediately. Zupreem put out a vague statement that would lead people to think they had retested, when actually by their own admission they did not. If I thought there were even a 1% chance a product I had made had killed and was continuing to kill parrots, it would be retested.

9. At any rate, there is still on open FDA investigation going on. Nobody has been cleared, no conclusions have been issued by the authorities.

 

[Owlet]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Dear Zupreem,

Let's talk. Right here out in the open for everyone to see it. I have beef with you. In fact, many of us do.

My 11 birds dying on January 1 should've been enough to get those two batches of pellet removed from shelves. You had the opportunity to be corporate rockstars by pulling them off the shelves and saying - let us work through this together.

But you didn't. You didn't when another rescue lost 8 birds after opening a new bag.

You didn't when another rescue lost 3.

You didn't when a gal in the south lost a bird and a squirrel after eating it.

You didn't during the March distribution time when all those birds died.

Or any of the other reports across the country.

What did you do instead? You doubled down, stuck stickers on your food that said "Zupreem is safe to feed!"

Lafeber's and Higgins handled themselves like rockstars, with Lafeber's actually having a recall after TWO bins of food had mold on them. Just 2. No one had to die. No one had to get sick. They just pulled them.

And then there's you. You've allowed people to talk terribly about me and my rescue repeatedly on your pages. People have gone as far as threatening me on your pages and you let them get away with it. When I post something correcting information, you remove it.

Do what's right. Pull the food. Pull the batches, and use your resources to prove one way or the other what the toxin is, where it came from and help us all be able to prevent anymore deaths.

Do that, and I'll shut up, and help you repair the damage to the brand and help you rebuild. You used to be an amazing company. Let's get back to that place.

What do you say, let's figure this out together. Shall we?

Shannon

Posted 2 hour ago, yeesh. I commend her for keeping things civil for so long even in light of so many deaths. I don't really think it's a good idea to make a post like this, it just fuels the fire, but I can understand her frustration. I really hope zupreem gets it together. I'm glad the rescues I've volunteered at don't feed it.

 

[Terry57]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Kentuckienne, I hope this answers some of your questions. I had put this together awhile back but never posted it. I have no idea if the videos are still on her page as she seems to delete things pretty often.

All of the videos I mention are located on her rescue page,the ekkie one is on Youtube. All quotes attributed to her are from her own posts, most of which are already in this thread.

May 8/2016 - She posts a video on Youtube and tells us a story about 2 Ekkies she just bought, one of whom she says had a broken wing from 6 months ago and she needs donations to have his wing amputated. In the course of explaining this, she offhandedly mentions she had also taken a U2 to the vet with the Ekkie who had tested positive for PBFD. The Ekkie rode in the car with the U2 to the vet and back, and she says she has the U2 in another room since he can't be with the other birds — yet the Ekkie is right back in the bird room.
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WITB-mkEhgo&feature=youtu.be"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WITB-mkEhgo&feature=youtu.be[/ame]

July 7/2016 - A video which shows a partially burned candle in the bird room.

Nov. 22/2016 , a video where she explains & shows how she changes the food & water — she dumps the dishes, wipes them out with a paper towel, and refills them (all get the same mix). It appears that the same 2 paper towels are used. One bowl has poop on it, which she tries to wipe off with the paper towel, then sets the bowl aside. Near the end, we can see 2 conures climbing up and down what appears to be a chain for a lamp.

January 28/2017, we see a video of the quarantine area. The room is open to the next room over, and a candelabra with partially burned (unlit) candles is visible next to one of the birds.

March 10 /2017, she shows us a video of her cooking for her birds. Pans appear to be non-stick.

March 31/2017. Another video, this one shows what looks like a stained glass window decoration that is hung next to a cage with a play top that a Hy is playing on.

Jan. 3/2018, she posts again and tells us that she lost 11 birds. They had not fed them anything fresh for a week as she was too busy binge watching Breaking Bad (even the Ekkie) and that she had fed them and they started dying a few hours later. They were fed from a bin in which she had mixed Zupreem & Nutriberries on Friday and used that to feed the birds on Friday & Saturday. Sunday she added in Higgins Vitamix, and said that was not mixed in, that she fed from the top seed portion on Sunday. Her husband thoroughly mixed everything on Monday and she fed that to the birds on Monday, and the deaths occurred Monday night. The Zupreem was fed Friday, Sat., Sun. and Monday. Tells us that the Fire Dept. came and tested the air and everything was clear. When questioned about exactly what they tested for, she later says they used a 4 gas monitor and carbon monoxide monitor and those things were cleared. Toxins in the air were not tested for 6 weeks. States that they took the deceased birds in the next day and had necropsies done for them. Says the initial things the Dr. found were their lungs were good, stomachs inflamed and livers rock hard. Later explains she had 1 necropsy done and sends food off to MSU for testing. Has 1 other bird frozen for future testing.
She says 3 birds survived but are given a 40% chance they won't make it. Later posts that they have been upgraded to a 75% chance of survival. Lets us know later that the birds were not taken to a vet for 4 weeks. At that time she took 1 additional bird in for testing, but did not vet the rest of the flock.

Jan. 15/2018 - She posts that the tests are inconclusive, and that the histo shows acute intoxication but are otherwise non-specific. Does not post actual reports..

Jan. 17/2018 -Someone else posts the actual test results, which show there were no toxins found in the food. It clearly states: Results: None of the toxic organic compounds that can be detected by GCMS screen were present in the sample. No drug, pesticide, or industrial compound residues observed.

The histo shows the lungs showed marked hemorrhage, some edema and varying degrees of atelectasis. Lungs were not good, as previously stated.

It also found that the following tissues are histologically within normal limits: intestine,pancreas,liver, proventriculus ,ventriculus (all parts of the digestive system)
Liver was within normal limits, nothing said about it being rock hard.
Histo shows principal differentials include exposure to an aerosolized toxin or possible exposure to an ingested toxin, such as an organophosphate or organochlorine.
A curiousity, but not really relevant, is she lists Rosie as a LSC2, and the Histo lists Rosie as a U2.


In her post on the 17th, she states that she does not mix batches, yet lists 2 different batches of ZuPreem on the 3rd.

When asked why she didn't release results, she says they are not complete, and were inconclusive. She then zeroes in on ZuPreem. Starts asking people who have lost birds to add to a post she has started. Continues to include the other rescue, also in Michigan, who lost 3 conures, despite the fact that the other rescue later said they are sure it was recalled Romaine lettuce. Without necropsies and testing on all these birds, these statistics are not conclusive of anything.

Jan. 8/2018, we see another video where she shows her quarantine area, again clearly showing a mud room open to the kitchen.

 

[reeb]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Kentuckienne, I hope this answers some of your questions. I had put this together awhile back but never posted it. I have no idea if the videos are still on her page as she seems to delete things pretty often.



All of the videos I mention are located on her rescue page,the ekkie one is on Youtube. All quotes attributed to her are from her own posts, most of which are already in this thread.



May 8/2016 - She posts a video on Youtube and tells us a story about 2 Ekkies she just bought, one of whom she says had a broken wing from 6 months ago and she needs donations to have his wing amputated. In the course of explaining this, she offhandedly mentions she had also taken a U2 to the vet with the Ekkie who had tested positive for PBFD. The Ekkie rode in the car with the U2 to the vet and back, and she says she has the U2 in another room since he can't be with the other birds — yet the Ekkie is right back in the bird room.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WITB-mkEhgo&feature=youtu.be



July 7/2016 - A video which shows a partially burned candle in the bird room.



Nov. 22/2016 , a video where she explains & shows how she changes the food & water — she dumps the dishes, wipes them out with a paper towel, and refills them (all get the same mix). It appears that the same 2 paper towels are used. One bowl has poop on it, which she tries to wipe off with the paper towel, then sets the bowl aside. Near the end, we can see 2 conures climbing up and down what appears to be a chain for a lamp.



January 28/2017, we see a video of the quarantine area. The room is open to the next room over, and a candelabra with partially burned (unlit) candles is visible next to one of the birds.



March 10 /2017, she shows us a video of her cooking for her birds. Pans appear to be non-stick.



March 31/2017. Another video, this one shows what looks like a stained glass window decoration that is hung next to a cage with a play top that a Hy is playing on.



Jan. 3/2018, she posts again and tells us that she lost 11 birds. They had not fed them anything fresh for a week as she was too busy binge watching Breaking Bad (even the Ekkie) and that she had fed them and they started dying a few hours later. They were fed from a bin in which she had mixed Zupreem & Nutriberries on Friday and used that to feed the birds on Friday & Saturday. Sunday she added in Higgins Vitamix, and said that was not mixed in, that she fed from the top seed portion on Sunday. Her husband thoroughly mixed everything on Monday and she fed that to the birds on Monday, and the deaths occurred Monday night. The Zupreem was fed Friday, Sat., Sun. and Monday. Tells us that the Fire Dept. came and tested the air and everything was clear. When questioned about exactly what they tested for, she later says they used a 4 gas monitor and carbon monoxide monitor and those things were cleared. Toxins in the air were not tested for 6 weeks. States that they took the deceased birds in the next day and had necropsies done for them. Says the initial things the Dr. found were their lungs were good, stomachs inflamed and livers rock hard. Later explains she had 1 necropsy done and sends food off to MSU for testing. Has 1 other bird frozen for future testing.

She says 3 birds survived but are given a 40% chance they won't make it. Later posts that they have been upgraded to a 75% chance of survival. Lets us know later that the birds were not taken to a vet for 4 weeks. At that time she took 1 additional bird in for testing, but did not vet the rest of the flock.



Jan. 15/2018 - She posts that the tests are inconclusive, and that the histo shows acute intoxication but are otherwise non-specific. Does not post actual reports..



Jan. 17/2018 -Someone else posts the actual test results, which show there were no toxins found in the food. It clearly states: Results: None of the toxic organic compounds that can be detected by GCMS screen were present in the sample. No drug, pesticide, or industrial compound residues observed.



The histo shows the lungs showed marked hemorrhage, some edema and varying degrees of atelectasis. Lungs were not good, as previously stated.



It also found that the following tissues are histologically within normal limits: intestine,pancreas,liver, proventriculus ,ventriculus (all parts of the digestive system)

Liver was within normal limits, nothing said about it being rock hard.

Histo shows principal differentials include exposure to an aerosolized toxin or possible exposure to an ingested toxin, such as an organophosphate or organochlorine.

A curiousity, but not really relevant, is she lists Rosie as a LSC2, and the Histo lists Rosie as a U2.





In her post on the 17th, she states that she does not mix batches, yet lists 2 different batches of ZuPreem on the 3rd.



When asked why she didn't release results, she says they are not complete, and were inconclusive. She then zeroes in on ZuPreem. Starts asking people who have lost birds to add to a post she has started. Continues to include the other rescue, also in Michigan, who lost 3 conures, despite the fact that the other rescue later said they are sure it was recalled Romaine lettuce. Without necropsies and testing on all these birds, these statistics are not conclusive of anything.



Jan. 8/2018, we see another video where she shows her quarantine area, again clearly showing a mud room open to the kitchen.

Thank you for this! I was also a little suspicious, especially when they didn’t release the lab report and it was leaked. I think the post created mass hysteria and people whose babies died during the period following the incident immediately blamed the food because of it. Even if she has no idea what happened, aerosol poisoning can be deadly within seconds and to me that is what this indicates because the birds just all started getting sick during a very short space of time. I hope she finds out what happened, I just don’t know if this continual blame game is helping the situation.

 

[reeb]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

She posted this today:

"Dear Zupreem,

Let's talk. Right here out in the open for everyone to see it. I have beef with you. In fact, many of us do.

My 11 birds dying on January 1 should've been enough to get those two batches of pellet removed from shelves. You had the opportunity to be corporate rockstars by pulling them off the shelves and saying - let us work through this together.

But you didn't. You didn't when another rescue lost 8 birds after opening a new bag.

You didn't when another rescue lost 3.

You didn't when a gal in the south lost a bird and a squirrel after eating it.

You didn't during the March distribution time when all those birds died.

Or any of the other reports across the country.

What did you do instead? You doubled down, stuck stickers on your food that said "Zupreem is safe to feed!"

Lafeber's and Higgins handled themselves like rockstars, with Lafeber's actually having a recall after TWO bins of food had mold on them. Just 2. No one had to die. No one had to get sick. They just pulled them.

And then there's you. You've allowed people to talk terribly about me and my rescue repeatedly on your pages. People have gone as far as threatening me on your pages and you let them get away with it. When I post something correcting information, you remove it.

Do what's right. Pull the food. Pull the batches, and use your resources to prove one way or the other what the toxin is, where it came from and help us all be able to prevent anymore deaths.

Do that, and I'll shut up, and help you repair the damage to the brand and help you rebuild. You used to be an amazing company. Let's get back to that place.

What do you say, let's figure this out together. Shall we?

Shannon

Do you want to ask Zupreem to initiate a voluntary recall for these batches? Here's your chance. Sign the petition."

I am not linking to the petition per forum rules.

 

[reeb]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Thank you for this! I was also a little suspicious, especially when they didn’t release the lab report and it was leaked. I think the post created mass hysteria and people whose babies died during the period following the incident immediately blamed the food because of it. Even if she has no idea what happened, aerosol poisoning can be deadly within seconds and to me that is what this indicates because the birds just all started getting sick during a very short space of time. I hope she finds out what happened, I just don’t know if this continual blame game is helping the situation.

All this being said, I don't agree with the fact that she has gotten so much hate. I've even seen death threats, and people being really, really nasty. I don't think she is a scammer, I just think that she may not be aware of /educated on certain things or the tragedy was truly a result of something that was actually out of her control. I don't know. I just think she doesn't deserve so much hate.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Terry, you're an absolute champion, always. Kentuckienne, you're such a fearless activist. Owlet, Lord, thank you for your great contributions. Reebsie, I appreciate your measured thoughts and I agree... regardless of shortcomings, nobody deserves death threats or hate.

If there are criticisms, let us cite them in a civil way, AS WE HAVE.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Terry, thank you so much. I'm on a data-restricted internet plan (boondocks) and I usually can't play many videos. I stayed up until nearly one in the morning watching the ones in your message. And now, contrary to pattern, I will shut up until I can do some more asking and thinking.

One thing that I do feel OK saying, is that rescue just started up in the spring of 2016 and I think there was a bit learning curve. For example, the cockatoo with PFBD was in quarantine, and as soon as it got a diagnosis they put it in a separate home with no other birds. It looks like maybe it was their first experience with the disease and they weren't sure exactly what it was. As time goes on, they got better at being aware of the possibility, and not bringing a suspected case into the rescue at all, but having them go through quarantine and testing at a non-bird home.

The FB posts give us a chance to see the early possible mistakes, but they do seem to be learning and changing. I'm glad nobody can see some of the mistakes I've made. Sometimes I think my purpose in life is to serve as a horrible example to others. And I'm not at all discounting the possibility of some non-pellet cause of the deaths. I just hope there is enough evidence and science to figure out what really did happen, so it can maybe not happen again. Truth will out.

 

[Scott]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Terry, you're an absolute champion, always. Kentuckienne, you're such a fearless activist. Owlet, Lord, thank you for your great contributions. Reebsie, I appreciate your measured thoughts and I agree... regardless of shortcomings, nobody deserves death threats or hate.

If there are criticisms, let us cite them in a civil way, AS WE HAVE.

^^^^This!!!^^^^

A perfect storm brewed by the internet, given oxygen and fuel by Facebook. Most everything about this case is circumstantial, though as Terry highlights, many anomalies exist at the rescue. There indeed is a learning curve whether one has 1 or 100 birds, and I've made plenty of innocent mistakes over the years. Somewhere on the continuum exists scapegoating vs provable errors/omissions/malfeasance by food manufacturers. IMO the needle is currently biased towards scapegoating.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I thought hard about responding. Unless I can add something factual, what can I say? Instead of making guesses about what did or didn't happen, I messaged Shannon (from Birds and Beaks) and asked if we could speak by phone, and she graciously agreed.

I preface this by saying I've been a supporter of B&B ... I donated to the rescue, and commissioned a portrait in memory of Charlie from our talented Gail. I confess my bias. But I really, really respect Terry57's wisdom, knowledge, and experience, and she raised some troubling points in her post. I asked Shannon about them directly, and she answered them frankly, and gave me permission to write about it here.

Birds and Beaks is fairly new. They started up in the spring of 2016. When I watch the videos from 2016 to the present, I see a lot of evolution. For example, they used to move the cages out of the rooms, scrape the floors, and clean them with Bona. Now they have a steam cleaner, and clean everything with that.

We began by talking about the candles. The candelabra, with the partially burned candles, dates back to the time before the rescue existed. They had a blackout and lit the candles for light - not in the same room as any birds. The candelabra sat on a table for a brief while during a re-org, but it was never lit anywhere around the birds. No candles are burned in the house, ever.

In fact she doesn't keep any chemicals in the house at all other than three basics: beach and vinegar and I-can't-read-my-writing. Shannon mentioned there is a photo going around showing about a hundred different bottles on her counter. That was when she was preparing to get the birds, collected everything from all over the house and gave it away.

I asked about the video where it looks like she's using a non-stick pan. She confirmed that it's non-stick - not Teflon, but a ceramic non-stick which does not have fluorocarbons. I had a similar one and spent a long time confirming it was safe, and hers is a newer iteration of that. They mostly use stainless steel pans. Is there room to argue about whether using a certified teflon-free nonstick pan is safe? People may disagree, but it is likely as safe as most things in the kitchen.

I asked about the stained glass piece by the hyacinth. It was made by Shannon's grandmother and kept well out of the reach of any bird.

I asked about quarantine. In the beginning, the room set up for quarantine was more connected to the traffic flow. They have since rearranged. Quarantine is now on the second floor, with no connections to the rest of the birds. The house doesn't have forced heat, just a boiler without a fan.

About the poor bird with PBFD, and the ekkie, and possible exposure of the flock: the cockatoo was suspected by her owners of having PBFD, and was going to be killed. Shannon agreed to take her in. The bird went directly into quarantined. They put up plastic sheeting to block off the space even more, and she kept special clothes to wear only in that space, and disinfected herself before touching anything else in the house.

The eclectus was not kept with the sick cockatoo. It had already cleared quarantine - in fact it was one of her first birds. Both of those birds needed to go to the vet, so she called the vet to ask the best way to bring them in. The vet gave instructions for how to get the cockatoo into a carrier, swaddle it completely and put it in the very back of the car with the ekkie in the very front. Once at the vet, the birds were brought in separately and taken into separate rooms. The cockatoo wound up being fostered by someone who didn't have any other birds and was willing to observe proper protocols.

When this happened, she wasn't even operating as a rescue yet. This was early in 2016. The poor eclectus from the previous paragraph was a sad story - Shannon bought this one from a woman who was untruthful about the bird's age and health. Turns out the poor thing had a painful wing injury from a dog bite. The vet thought the wing would need to be amputated. Rather than take the bird back to the breeder, she actually ransomed the breeder's other eclectus to get it out of a bad place. The vet wanted to give the wing a chance to improve, and it did continue to improve, to the point where surgery wasn't needed.

I asked about the food/water-changing procedures in the video. I could tell Shannon sounded a bit uncomfortable ... and I don't blame her. Do any of us feel 100% confident that we are doing everything absolutely right all the time? Even when we believe we make the best choices we can make every day, there's always a twinge if someone criticizes. I confess my own self that I've just rinsed Gus's water out in the afternoon, dried the bowl, and refilled it. And if he has dust in the pellet bowl, I might dump it out and wipe it clean and put in more pellets. And that's just one bird, not 22.

The birds in that video live in an aviary. They eat out of each other's bowls - because try to stop me, human. At feeding time, yes they do get a common mix of feed. Each food bowl is wiped out with a paper towel, which has been folded into quarters, and refilled. The next bowl is wiped out with the same towel refolded to expose a clean surface. The water bowls are dumped and wiped and she does use more towels for that. If a bowl has poop or something disgusting, it's put aside and replaced with a clean one. The bowls get washed in the dishwasher about five times a week. For the non-aviary birds who stay in cages, each one does get a clean paper towel at changing time. This is the technique she's developed to be able to care for so many birds. It seems a reasonable compromise, but I've never worked in a rescue. If some of you guys have, and have some helpful advice, I hope you will share it. We all learn from one another.

You can see I asked her a lot of impertinent and nosy questions, and instead of becoming insulted and defensive she answered them all in a considered and thoughtful way. So I went ahead and asked about the terrible New Year's Eve, the surviving sick birds not being taken to the vet right away, and the rest of the flock not getting to the vet ASAP either.

Shannon said the dying started in the middle of the night and lasted until early in the morning. Everyone in the house was completely traumatized, running around trying to move birds to safety, deal with the fire department, care for the ones in crisis ... I can't imagine it, I really can't. She called the vet as soon as the office opened. The vet advised her NOT to bring the survivors in - it sounded like an acute case, some kind of poisoning, and the stress of moving the sick birds would likely be worse than any good they could do them. So the rescue cared for them as well as they could to help them recover.

The vet also said that no disease would make so many birds die in such a short time frame, so it was unlikely that anything would show up in tests. They pulled the food and saved it, and took some of the bodies in for necropsy per the vet's suggestion. After about a month, when the surviving birds had stabilized, they did go in for full chemical profile, CBC, fecal, gram stain, everything, to see if there were any lingering effects. Everything was as normal as could be considering these are rescue birds, many still recovering from decades of malnutrition, maltreatment, and neglect.

Again - would it have been better to have ALL the bodies necropsied and tested? In a perfect world, of course. (When you find the perfect world, please tell me so I can move there. This one sucks, especially the part where a-holes keep macaws in dark closets for decades.) The cost for that would have been many thousands of dollars. Shannon pays much of the rescue's expenses herself. They had just been through replacing a car engine, a computer, a furnace, a host of other unexpected expenses, and simply didn't have the money for necropsies of all those birds. It was the vet's opinion that the ones they chose would be representative enough.

Oh, about the two batches of food - when she answered, I remembered she had already described it on the first walk-through video. When they open new bags, they take what's in the bin out and put it aside for the birds in quarantine, then clean out the bins and refill them. That's why there were two suspect batch numbers, the new batch and the one just pulled.

There still is an open FDA investigation going on. I can't say anything about it, but the foods have NOT been cleared, in fact there is more specific testing going on, things that were not tested for originally. I hope they find something. Not so anybody can be right or wrong, but because if we understand what killed these birds, we can prevent it from happening again.

I'm sending Shannon a link to this post so she can correct me on any misunderstandings. She was generous with her time and answered every question I put to her. She told me that if the answer does turn out to be something that she did, she doesn't care. She just wants to make sure it never happens again. She believes there has got to be a solution that explains all the facts, and finding that solution is more important than her - or anyone's - ego.

After our conversation, I confess my bias is even stronger towards Shannon's integrity and there's no way I would feed any of that food to a bird, much less from those batches. I hope the answers come soon. I hope that each of you will be open minded about what those answers might be. If you have any concerns about how Birds and Beaks conducts operations, don't speculate or join the trolls. Just ask, in a respectful way, like Terry57 did. We're all in this together for the parrots.

 

[SailBoat]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

Karen,

I honestly do not know where to start. I guess disappointed would be as good as any place. Disappointed in an interview conducted from a stated position (thank-you) of a bias / supporting friend. Your science background should have conditioned you to have drilled much deeper and been far more prepared and specific in getting clear and/or documentable answers.

FYI: I would strongly recommend that you inform your friend that parrotforums.com has full ownership of this site, including any and all segments, which includes photos, documents and text! To be very specific, removal (use), including cutting and pasting is not allowed.

I truly understand your want to help a friend. I appreciate your efforts in attempting to bring clarity to a very cloudy and confusing history of a heartbreaking loss. Had you place these answers against history, you would have seen even more confusion and changes from historical statements made.

Sadly, this has become even more confusing and places even brighter lights on what did and did not happen.

But, thank-you for your effort in trying to bring some clarity.

 

[LordTriggs]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

this is all some interesting info. Personally I wish Zupreem would re-test and put the food 'issue' to bed one way or another. The person running the rescue posting that stuff could easily get themselves into a legal bind with that post being as hostile and accusatory as it is.

right now the only hard facts we have are that it isn't the other foods, Zupreem haven't done a secondary test and that's it. As has been said before we may never know exactly what caused this but it's kind of not really about that, it's about making sure foods people give are as safe as can be and eliminating any potential risks.

As for the threats to the rescue unfortunately that is the power anonymity gives people. I remember a study from a while ago where they found road rage and similar things being brought about from the disconnect from the other humans, the same findings apply to the internet, if anything they apply more as people are further removed and are aware of the seedier people on the internet.

 

[reeb]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

You'll probably be able to tell that I'm doing a degree in History, Psychology and English when you read this, lol.

Karen,
I honestly do not know where to start. I guess disappointed would be as good as any place. Disappointed in an interview conducted from a stated position (thank-you) of a bias / supporting friend. Your science background should have conditioned you to have drilled much deeper and been far more prepared and specific in getting clear and/or documentable answers.

The fact is that nothing can truly be objective in cases like this. We all come in with our own biases, opinions and experiences, and While Karen does support the rescue, she expressed a self-awareness of this, and clearly took it into account when writing her post. I do believe the interview was quite thorough, and provided a unique perspective into the case that we can't get from Facebook or other sources. Question everything, of course, but we can use this interview to contextualise, criticise and analyse previous statements made by the rescue, as you mentioned here:

K Had you place these answers against history, you would have seen even more confusion and changes from historical statements made.

Sadly, this has become even more confusing and places even brighter lights on what did and did not happen.

I definitely agree with this - but once again, having this interview allows us to actually place it against history and come to our own conclusions. It is just another little bit of the story, and it is up to the individual to weigh up how reliable it is when taking all that has been discovered and discussed since the tragedy occurred.

There is plenty of false information, as well as plenty of true information, and even having more subjective sources does not discount their value. Just because one source is confined by certain restrictions in the event it describes does not mean that it isn't valuable in a collective frame of reference to discover the truth.

Using a somewhat positivist approach (i.e. only that which can be scientifically proven is true) is quite narrow in situations like this, as we can still subjectively decide what the facts are on our own terms. It just isn't possible to be fully objective, and to me any one who goes on their path to uncover some truth is taking a step in the right direction. My truth may be completely different from someone else's truth and in order to understand what the truth really is, we need to use all the knowledge we can possibly gain, even if it is subjective or biased (which most information is, especially in cases like this).

So thank you, Karen. This has definitely given me a lot of insight.

Also sorry for the long post!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I like how you think, reebsie, my friend.

I have enough facts and opinions at this point to make a peaceful personal decision on the matter, but I also feel good about staying open-minded. I hope the same is true for other members.

Thanks to all for the civil yet passionate discourse.

 

[Anansi]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

For the most part, I've refrained from posting on this thread... with a few exceptions here and there, of course. I have no problem with measured and balanced discussion on the topic. It's just my personal choice since I feel as though our ability to accurately sift the truth from the messy morass of emotional upheaval and missed opportunities for relatively clean and more thorough scientific testing has dwindled to the point of calculated guesses at best and merest speculation at worst.

Between Terry's post and Karen's follow-up interview (both admirably detailed and sincere in their respective intents), readers have enough info to look back over the sources and determine - to some degree - the accuracy of Shannon's account for themselves. But regardless of conclusions drawn on that score, it doesn't change the fact that we have no scientifically sound basis for any solid determination of what really happened to those poor birds. Short of another incident occurring (Heaven forbid) with similar results and being handled with more strict adherence to the scientific method, we likely will never have an answer. That's just the sad truth.

So why am I posting now? Simply because I wanted to address one particular concern about quarantine in general, and the part of the quote in bold print particularly.

...About the poor bird with PBFD, and the ekkie, and possible exposure of the flock: the cockatoo was suspected by her owners of having PBFD, and was going to be killed. Shannon agreed to take her in. The bird went directly into quarantined. They put up plastic sheeting to block off the space even more, and she kept special clothes to wear only in that space, and disinfected herself before touching anything else in the house.

The eclectus was not kept with the sick cockatoo. It had already cleared quarantine - in fact it was one of her first birds. Both of those birds needed to go to the vet, so she called the vet to ask the best way to bring them in. The vet gave instructions for how to get the cockatoo into a carrier, swaddle it completely and put it in the very back of the car with the ekkie in the very front. Once at the vet, the birds were brought in separately and taken into separate rooms. The cockatoo wound up being fostered by someone who didn't have any other birds and was willing to observe proper protocols...

Within the avian community, true and proper quarantine is when a bird is kept isolated from all others for a period of 90 days. And this isolation includes access to a separate air supply, regardless of whether or not there is forced air. Even without forced currents, air still travels throughout a house. As such, what most of us call quarantine (myself included) isn't true quarantine.

In addition, clothes and shoes should be fully changed, and hair, face and hands thoroughly washed after contact with the quarantined bird and before contact with the rest of the flock.

But most of us simply implement the best measures we know how. My situation resembled the modified one that Shannon said she implemented. Namely, a separation by floors and adherence to the change of clothes and hand washing standards and such. But I didn't have a separate air source. (Full transparency) Very few of us do. It poses a risk, though it is a small one if all other protocols are followed. My point though, is to make clear the exacting rigor required for true quarantine. To drive home the fact that few of us meet the criteria designed to virtually eliminate any threat of disease transmission. Which goes to show you how difficult it is to prevent said transmission. All most of us do is minimize the risk to varying degrees.

I've said all this to say that swaddling a bird within the close confines of a car is woefully inadequate for minimizing the threat of contagion. I'm not criticizing Shannon, here. I'm criticizing the advice she was given. And only for the benefit of anyone reading who might think it okay. It's not okay. PBFD is one of the most aggressively contagious diseases in the avian world. No one should ever have advised her to take both birds in using the same car. Short of both being on the brink of death and there being no other choice, it should never have happened. Many have bent the rules of true quarantine. Most don't have provisions for separate air. But having both in the same car is outright breaking those rules. Especially when one of the birds is suspected of having a disease like that.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I write “you” in this post and it’s just a general you, not pointed at anybody in particular.

Thanks for the feedback. It’s true that I had already developed opinions based on what I read on the Birds and Beaks page - I’ve been following it since the mass die-off last New Year’s. I also followed Zupreem’s page a the same time. I also devoted hours to researching the symptoms in veterinary journals and manuals along with whatever I could find online. I’m fascinated by puzzles, the more difficult the better. I had my own theories about what happened, and I’m not attached to my own theories. The instant I have new information, I evaluate it, and if I accept it I have to change my working hypothesis.

I had to stop following the ZuPreem page. The vast majority of posts were character assaults not backed up by evidence. I repeatedly and politely asked the ZuPreem company to clarify their opaque statement that they had “reviewed the test results” - were they saying they had retested the batches, as the other manufacturers did immediately, or were they saying they had only looked at tests conducted prior to the batch release? They did not answer, and only recentl did I get someone to admit that they did NOT retest.

So now there are discrepancies and I’m really interested. I started paying a lot of attention. I evaluated everything I read against the growing background to see where it fit. I watched for inconsistencies and patterns.

One pattern I saw was the vitriolic response from the Parrot Poop FB group on their own and in the Zupreme page. The PP’ers said they were proud of being aggressive and rude, and if you don’t like it go elsewhere. Ok, so take that into consideration when reading comments from them ... maybe they are playing up the character. The group’s leader, Judith, is an attorney who helps funnel resources to bird rescues. That’s admirable. Zupreme donates generously at least in food to her work. That’s a red flag. Not proof of anything, but a sign that conflicts of interest are possible. If Judith had encouraged her followers to be open minded, if she had asked Zupreme to provide evidence and reassurance, I would have given more weight to the her and her followers’ comments. Instead she encouraged personal attacks on Shannon’s character and praised people for posting the most offensive and unsubstantiated comments. So now I am inclined to give LESS weight to their claims, and to investigate anything I read on that site.

One of the things that happened was that one of the Poopheads got a copy of the first vet report. They posted it, misinterpreted some of the language, and used it to create more attacks. For example: the report says the findings are consistent with an inhaled or ingested organophosphate. The Poopheads turned this into “the report says it was inhaled, not in the food, Shannon hates Zupreme”. I was still following the page at the time, so I posted - and if they didn’t delete my posts, you can verify for yourself - that no, the report said the inhaled or ingested which toxic could have been in the air OR in the food. I wrote that several times. It doesn’t matter, the “inhaled toxin” meme was established.

After that, Shannon became - IMO - justifiably wary of releasing test results. It’s one thing to say look, here’s some addition information, does this help find an answer? But if the information is going to be twisted and distorted, all that happens is this: latecomers who haven’t been reading the THOUSANDS OF PRIOR POSTS read that “tests prove it was inhaled and they are hiding the results so you won’t know that” and believe it. The results are online, and anybody can go read them and see that the oral pathway was not ruled out. They will see the language that says the tests did not find any of the common toxins they tested for - not language that says no toxins are present. I pointed this out as well. But people don’t go look for the source, and don’t verify, and tend to repeat what they hear.

I didn’t leave out any of the hard questions when I talked to Shannon. I didn’t want to say anything about the food bowl cleaning, as you can tell from my post, because it was a better procedure than I’ve seen at local rescue places. But I did. I was pretty sure I recognized the ceramic nonstick pan, and I knew there would be a backlash against that, but I asked, and she answered. Did it come across as me justifying it? I hope what came across was my mixed emotions. I used a pan like that for years. It was Teflon free, it was great for cooking eggs, I was careful with it. Yet I was also uncomfortable. What if I had a stroke while cooking and burned the pan? I put in in the thrift store box and took it out several times before finally deciding my peace of mind was worth more than the convenience. I haven’t found any report of any bird dying because of one of those pans. But it’s a hot button issue and I was reluctant to ask her about it, and I was reluctant to write about it, and I can only say that some facts are softer than others, and our own opinions and experience color our interpretation of data. All I can do is tell you what my own biases are. Then you can judge my words against that background and decide what to make of them.

As for inconsistencies... in my judgement, Birds and Beaks has been consistent in their statements and comments, going back to the beginning. Some of the comments are 500+ deep in a post, some are responses to a comment ... and I had to give up reading them all at one point because life. So if anybody has a question about an inconsistency, speak up!

I have NOT made up my mind that the cause has to be the food. I’m 90% there. But I can think of scenarios that could explain it. They g
Had trouble with a crazy person who was refused an adoption - maybe he broke in and poisoned the food. Maybe one of the kids friends poisoned the food. I don’t give those options much weight, but I don’t have any proof to discard them, so there they sit. I don’t buy the “bug spray” theory because I used to work in a pesticide research lab synthesizing novel compounds, and the chemicals used in the bug sprays are far more toxic to insects than to anaimals, because they target different neural pathways. I won’t say more because I don’t want anybody to get the idea these are safe to use around birds, but there is almost no chance that a toxic dose of bug spray could be given to the large birds and not cause problems for the little ones. You’d have to round up all the big ones, put them in a box, spray the heck out of them, and then the residue would be all over their feathers and lungs. And none was found.

I didn’t go there, but there are many slanderous allegations against Shannon online as well. They don’t deserve repeating. Some have a tiny kernel of fact that’s been distorted and some are outright lies. I can’t say how disgusted and appalled I am by them without giving them more publicity than they deserve.

Don’t take my word for anything. It’s all available to fact-check. I was just tired of second hand gossip and innuendo so I decided to just ask questions of the people involved. This way, I’m at least going by what the principals say, rather than what someone else says they think they meant. It’s as close to where the truth is as I can get.

If anything I said is wrong, please tell me the specifics, and I will look at it and retract anything that needs it. Don’t take my feedback as me saying anything is proved. All I care about is that birds are continuing to die, and I want it to stop.

 

[Terry57]

Re: Please read, many birds dead at rehab, food to blame?

I think at this point the only thing that will change anyone's mind are actual lab reports as most people have made up their mind one way or the other. We have made a decision to close this thread until there are lab reports.
We would like to thank everyone for always being civil and respectful here.