Parrotlet respiratory issue

[Fai]

I recently got a parrotlet around 5 months ago, and she has been fine but recently I have noticed that while she is a resting or napping you can visibly see her breathing, you cannot really see it when she is completely asleep with her head in her back. I recently lost a bird to a veterinarian and it was very costly at the same time so I want to avoid making an emergency visit if possible. Other than that, she has been very active, eating well, poop is fine, no tail bob and her weight is fine (it is not changing). I want to know if I am just being paranoid and birds breathing is just visible while they are resting

 

[RomanParrots]

hi! i have to say that all parrots are different, but in this case, if the parrot has never had any respiratory issues they should be just fine <3! its very normal for parrots to be visibly breathing while they sleep, some may even snore. but if you have serious concerns about her breathing while she sleeps, you should probably see an avian vet.

if you see your parrot excessively panting, or suddenly waking up due to shortness of breath, it could have been a nightmare, but even so, if something like that were to happen quite often, you should go see an avian vet. parrots are extremely skilled in hiding illnesses, so its better to be safe than sorry!

note: i strongly do not recommend taking parrots to vets that do not specialize in birds. i strongly recommend to find a local avian vet. i say this because there have been many cases of vets completely butchering off flight feathers or overdosing parrots and killing them. Thanks <3

 

[wrench13]

Monitor her food intake and her weight, both are good indicators of any issues. And Yah, only see a Certified Avian Vet, not a cat and dog vet that also sees birds. Very important and worth every extra penny that might cost.

 

[SilverSage]

Also, how does the tail look? A tail should line up with the back of the bird and point slightly out, not directly down. A tail that points right to the floor, or a tail that bobs with breathing is an indication of a respiratory infection and needs an avian vet immediately.


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[Fai]

Her tail is lined up fine with her back and her wings aren’t dropping either, my last bird had this so I’ve been watching for that as well. Her breathing was fine when she had her companion in her cage with her at night but it passed away. One reason I suspect that our parrotlet might feel lonely and scared without her? Another reason I know is that when birds get depressed they can be more prone to illnesses and we are trying to get her a companion asap- but I hope it’s first reason rather than the second

 

[noodles123]

Make sure you are not using teflon/ptfe/pfoa/pfcs in the house--they can be very deadly when heated (even if the bird is on another floor---doesn't matter if a bird survived 1 or 100 exposures- your bird can still suddenly die from them or become extremely ill. These chemicals are seriously SO dangerous and nothing to mess around with or put to chance.


Make sure you are not smoking, vaping or using non-avian cleaners



Make sure you are not using candles, air fresheners, wax warmers, diffusers, aroma-therapy etc. Glade plug-ins are PARTICULARLY BAD.



If you are already doing all of these things, get your bird to the vet, as it could be an infection and they hide illness until things are getting really bad and they can no longer mask it. If you are using these things, that is even more reason to get your bird to a vet (avian certified if at all possible, as it makes a world of difference).

 

[Fai]

We have one Teflon pan but I know the dangers of it so whenever it’s in use all the windows are open and the vent above it is on, and as an extra precaution we take her to the opposite side of the house. We use a humidifier but I believe those are safe and are good for parrotlets because they live in a warm and humid climate. While she’s resting, her breathing seems to be deep but not fast and I don’t know if that’s ok (no tail bob or open mouth breathing.)

 

[SailBoat]

Bird commonly breath wlth very little of no signs that they are, i.e. a still bird.

Commonly, Birds are taken to an Avian Medical Professional when they seen to be sick, and since birds tend to hide their illness, when they show signs that they are sick, they are really sick and as a result, many birds die when at the vet's clinic.

As stated above, Avian Vet care is a speciality and see a dog and cat vet does not assure 'best service' for a Parrot.

If you are seeing even a minor change, its time to get your Parrot into seeing an Avail Vet.

 

[Laurasea]

We have one Teflon pan but I know the dangers of it so whenever it’s in use all the windows are open and the vent above it is on, and as an extra precaution we take her to the opposite side of the house. We use a humidifier but I believe those are safe and are good for parrotlets because they live in a warm and humid climate. While she’s resting, her breathing seems to be deep but not fast and I don’t know if that’s ok (no tail bob or open mouth breathing.)

This is not safe at all!!! She us still getting some of the toxin. Think of a person smoking at one end of the house with the window open and everything you do, you would still smell it and know someone was smoking in the house. These dangerous chemicals are smaller and finer than that and the off gasses travel everywhere.

Throw out all Teflon, or nonnstick with those chemicals.

Also birds evolved to hide being sick , until they can't. Its not a conscious choice for them, its hardwired .

Track weight even 1 gram lost in a tiny parrot can be a big deal

 

[noodles123]

We have one Teflon pan but I know the dangers of it so whenever it’s in use all the windows are open and the vent above it is on, and as an extra precaution we take her to the opposite side of the house. We use a humidifier but I believe those are safe and are good for parrotlets because they live in a warm and humid climate. While she’s resting, her breathing seems to be deep but not fast and I don’t know if that’s ok (no tail bob or open mouth breathing.)

Agreed with Laura. You need to get rid of that pan. Her smoking analogy is good, and ptfe is even better at spreading itself around than smoke. It's not going to cost much to replace it with something safe, so why not?

We had a member whose husband cooked eggs in the same Teflon pan they had been using (nothing different from normal, nothing burned, short cook time). Birds were in a completely different room with the door shut and everything, but once day, that pan still killed almost all of them (vet confirmed ptfe toxicosis)..again, they had used the same pan before without apparent issue ...Not worth the risk (because it is so dangerous and inconsistent)

PTFE/PFOA/PFCS/Teflon has also killed birds on totally separate floors of the house through shut doors. Opening windows will not prevent potential exposure to deadly levels of chemicals. While you should always open up the windows if you think your bird has inadvertently been exposed to an airborne chemical (like smoke, burning plastic etc), it should be a last resort when prevention isn't an option--it isn't something you can rely on for protection...

 

[Fai]

If I bring up the vet, my mom tells me she isn’t sick and does not think our bird needs to go to the vet, especially with the traumatic visit we had about 2 months ago. I do not use the Teflon pan but my mom does and she insists that the vent above the stove (the microwave vent) sucks up all the Teflon fumes and also says that the Teflon fumes only emit when something is burning unless it’s a really used one. I have already tried talking it out with her but for now I have to tried to be very careful with the Teflon pan. I’m just very confused because she hasn’t lost weight nor is her poop changing which are signs that your bird is sick that they can’t really hide. If she has been exposed to Teflon, is there anything I can do to help her while I try to convince my mom to bring her to the vet? I heard you cannot treat Teflon and I’m extremely worried for her.

 

[Fai]

Also if they were to see if she has Teflon poisoning, what tests do they perform because I don’t think I can say yes to a blood work test because of what happened last time... and what treatments did they offer for it?

 

[noodles123]

The is 0 cure for Teflon Toxicosis. Your mom is so wrong (supportive emergency oxygen is sometimes used after an episode, but the particles get into their air sacs and they don't leave)....1. most kitchen vents do not suck air out of the house...2. MOST people use the range fan when cooking, and teflon is still the largest preventable killer of parrots according to my vet...I would venture to say that in most bird deaths, the fan was already on. That's like saying that you could smoke meth under the kitchen fan and the chemicals wouldn't stay in the house LOL!


She is quoting Dupont (the manufacturer) when she says it only off-gasses at high heats, but there are numerous academic publications that cite deaths from teflon as low as 350. It has killed plenty of birds under totally perfect/normal use.

I wish I could have a word with her, because she is so exceptionally incorrect. You can't rely on DuPont's claims when they have a vested interest in keeping their products out there.

Again-consider the member who lost something like 12 birds did so without overheating the pan, without burning food etc....same pan her husband cooked eggs in before...the exact same way. Hers is not the only case...The University of Missouri lost a ton of baby birds due to the ptfe coating on some heat lamps...The bulbs did not ever heat to the temperatures cited by DuPont and PTFE toxicity was documented/confirmed.



Back to the vet issue: ALL parrots should go the a certified avian vet 1x a year at least. If your bird is acting off, you should take her to the vet even if you are not seeing anything blatantly wrong (because they do hide illness). If your mom wants to wait until he is acting super sick like a dog or cat would, then by the time sickness is obvious in birds, it is often too late. Your bird may be totally fine, but when it comes to birds (as opposed to other pets) every subtle change should be taken seriously, because they hide it until they no longer can.

 

[noodles123]

For your mom:
This website is excellent, and while it opposes Teflon, all of it's statements are back up by legitimate studies/sources: https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen

Bird deaths have been documented during or immediately after the following normal cooking scenarios:

• New Teflon-lined Amana oven was used to bake biscuits at 325°F; all the owner’s baby parrots died [3] [4].
• Four stovetop burners, underlined with Teflon-coated drip pans, were preheated in preparation for Thanksgiving dinner; 14 birds died within 15 minutes [2] [5].
• Nonstick cookie sheet was placed under oven broiler to catch the drippings; 107 chicks died [2].
• Self-cleaning feature on the oven was used; a $2,000 bird died [5].
• Set of Teflon pans, including egg poaching pan, were attributed to seven bird deaths over seven years [6].
• Water burned off a hot pan; more than 55 birds died [7].
• Electric skillet at 300°F and space heater were used simultaneously; pet bird died [8].
• Toaster oven with a non-stick coating was used to prepare food at a normal temperature; bird survived but suffered respiratory distress [9].
• Water being heated for hot cocoa boiled off completely; pet bird died [10].
• Grill plate on gas stove used to prepare food at normal temperatures; two birds died on two separate occasions [11].

DuPont claims that its coating remains intact indefinitely at 500°F [12]. Experiences of consumers whose birds have died from fumes generated at lower temperatures show that this is not the case. In one case researchers at the University of Missouri documented the death of about 1,000 broiler chicks exposed to offgas products from coated heat lamps at 396°F [13].
DuPont also claims that human illness will be produced only in cases involved gross overheating, or burning the food to an inedible state [12]. Yet DuPont's own scientists have concluded that polymer fume fever in humans is possible at 662°F, a temperature easily exceeded when a pan is preheated on a burner or placed beneath a broiler, or in a self-cleaning oven [14].
References
[1] Dale, Steve. 1995. “Fatal fumes; while people may not be in danger, the kitchen is no place for pet birds.” Chicago Tribune. March 26, 1995.
[2] Daniels, Mary. 1987. “Health debate; non-stick drip pans catch heat.” Chicago Tribune. March 29 1987.
[3] Stewart Bob. 2002. Personal communication with Dr. Jennifer Klein, Environmental Working Group. May 9, 2002.
[4] Stewart Bob. 2002. Personal email communication with Anne Morgan, Environmental Working Group. [date]
[5] Daniels, Mary. 1986. “Stove fumes killing cages birds; overheating coated pans can bring quick death,” Chicago Tribune. March 9, 1986.
[6] Hopkins, Steve 2001. “Bird deaths linked to Teflon coating.” Waikato Times. Hamilton, New Zealand. Independent Publishers Ltd. July 11, 2001. Copyright 2001 Independent Publishers Ltd.
[7] Kreger Theresa 2003. "Teflon deaths." Email correspondence to EWG. April 2003.
[8] Shively Carol. 2003. "PTFE fumes kill family's pet birds!" Accessed online at www.quakerville.com/qic/ezine/96Issue5/qteflon.htm. April 2003.
[9] Grahme 2003. "Teflon-related bird information." Email correspondence to Environmental Working Group. April 24 2003.
[10] Anonymous 2003. Email correspondence to Environmental Working Group. April 2003.
[11] Anonymous 2003. Email correspondence to Environmental Working Group. April 2003.
[12] DuPont 2003a. "Consumer products help: Cookware safety. Will cooking fumes generated while cooking with non-stick cookware harm people or animals, especially pet birds?" Accessed online May 10 2003 from http:/www.teflon.com.
[13] Boucher M, Ehmler TJ, Bermudez AJ. 2000. Polytetrafluoroethylene gas intoxication in broiler chickens. Avian Dis 44:449-53.
[14] Waritz, R.S. 1975. An industrial approach to evaluation of pyrolysis and combustion hazards. Environ Health Perspect 11:197-202.

 

[noodles123]

You can't treat teflon exposure (aside from supportive oxygen in an emergency). The best thing you can do is ensure that Teflon coated products are not used in your home and that you do not use other harmful respiratory irritants around your bird. It isn't always immediately obvious that damage has occurred...

"Unfortunately, signs of illness are very subtle, as birds often do not display obvious signs until near death. There are no specific symptoms or signs with Teflon poisoning, although difficult breathing (from mild to severe), as well as weakness, looking “fluffed” not using the perch, listlessness, coma, and death may be seen. Sadly with severe exposure, death can occur in minutes." (from VCA hospital's website)

 

[Fai]

Thank you guys, I have been researching and I could not find any of these stuff on the internet, this is very helpful. I just want to know if our bird has a chance of recovering from it, I would be very saddened to lose another of our bird. There’s a certified avian 33 miles away from here I’ll call them to see.

 

[noodles123]

I have taken Noodles to the vet on a few occasions when she was acting odd, and they couldn't find anything wrong. That does sometimes happen...The risk is that it's like a coin-toss ----if your bird seems off, you need to rule out illness (because while it could be nothing, it might also be something). I know your mom will say, "I told you" if nothing is wrong, but as a bird owner, you have to take little things seriously...So, even if she turns out to be fine, you won't be certain until you take her to a solid vet (and even then, the extent of the info that you get will be based upon the extent of testing performed). Sometimes vets take a cautious approach and ask that you return for testing if X occurs...So one trip may or may not answer all of your questions, but you are wise to be attentive to the changes you have observed.


Note: when I talk about confirmed PTFE toxicity, that is usually confirmed by autopsy and lesions. When a bird is alive still, vets look at the context to assess suspected cases.


To be clear: The current behavior you are seeing could be totally unrelated to your mom's pan. It could be bacterial, viral, fungal, genetic, or nothing at all. Your mom needs to stop using that pan, because it could be related, but there is no way to know. The best thing is to stop using it. We had birds that survived teflon before we knew better (so I am not saying your bird is doomed, but I also do not know the extent of the damage our childhood birds experienced). I am saying that it can cause permanent damage even if the bird isn't obviously ill but it can also kill them out of the blue. Don't assume that your bird is poisoned by teflon, but don't assume that it isn't. Does that make sense? There is know way to know what (if any) damage has been done (unless there is some sort of imaging technology that MIGHT show it, but I am not sure on that). The goal from this point forward should be to prevent any new exposure to any respiratory irritants (teflon, scented products, standard cleaners,nail polish, carpet shampoos, aerosols, paints/glue fumes, stains, plastics off-gassing etc).


If you need a good parrot safe cleaner, f10 sc (the clear/yellowish concentrate) is really good and safe-- plus, it seems expensive, but you can make a million gallons using one tiny bottle. Vinegar is a natural cleaner that isn't as good, but still has a role to play if you just need something for general shining/surfaces (it won't kill germs like f10 though).

 

[noodles123]

How did you lose your other bird to the vet? I'm sorry for your loss- sounds awful... I'm just wondering if your current bird's symptoms could somehow be related to whatever caused you to bring your other bird to the vet in the first place).

 

[Fai]

We brought her to the vet because she had respiratory issues as well, her tail was straight down and bobbing, her chest was big and wings drooping and we have been calling vets for weeks and finally were able to her an appointment but it was 2 weeks later. Unfortunately a week before it she started to cuddle with us and wheezing so we brought her for emergency to another vet (to be clear we called a lot of vets and they recommended a hospital that took emergencies and after we realized that we don’t think the doctor that took her in was not an avian.) they took her in and had her in an oxygen cage for hours and we didn’t know what was happening. They tell us they see her struggling to breath but needed to do a x ray and bloodwork to know what she had and this was going to cost $700 and we were willing, she was 8 1/2 years old and they took the x ray. When it got to the blood work, they did it without the doctor and took too much blood and she died. From the x ray they told us liquid got in her lungs but we don’t know the reason as to how? (We still had to pay half of that)We have actually had a Teflon pan for all the time we had the other bird but I learned about the toxins from Teflon when we got the other bird so I’m very confused as to how my other bird lived to be 8 1/2 years when we didn’t know about Teflon. If anyone knows how liquid gets into lungs then that’s the cause for my other birds death.

 

[noodles123]

Teflon causes fluid in the lungs.....I am sorry to say. It is not the only cause, but it is one.
Was a necroscopy performed to determine the cause of illness?


It can damage them without actually killing them initially. A parrotlet can easily live 20, 30 even 40 years if everything goes accordingly in terms of care, toxins etc. 40 is on the high end, but 20 is within the average range.


See link: https://wagwalking.com/bird/condition/teflon-poisoning <- symptoms can be much milder than those listed here (as many birds who are impacted by it do not display full-on emergency symptoms) <-- see "causes" section for the part about fluid in the lungs.


Again, without a necroscopy, there is no way to know. It could still be disease related, but just because it took 8 years doesn't mean teflon didn't contribute. The symptoms you described are extremely dire and if you had been calling for 2 weeks, that means that you saw alarming symptoms at that point in time (and probably prior to that first call). Just make sure your mom knows that waiting until that point is the worst plan, because when they get that way, it is often too late (but it just depends on what is causing it).


https://birdsupplies.com/blogs/news/149260295-parrot-respiratory-problems <- that's another resource talking about respiratory issues.


Although the vet's action of taking too much blood was tragic, it does sound like your other bird was deathly ill already, and the cause of that initial illness is what concerns me most (as birds can transmit viruses etc easily and due to what I know about your mom's pan).