Caique with Fainting or Seizure - With Video - No Vet Dx

[socrjul]

New member, but a long time lurker. Just a quick rundown of history with a link to a video of the event:

Video of weakness and seizure ... or..

I have a 10 year old male caique named Tocino. About a week and a half ago I witnessed what I thought to be either a cardiac or neurological event. He was in his cage making an odd chattering noise, and I took him out thinking he wanted attention. When I took him from the cage he was listless and couldn't really keep his balance, his left leg hung limp and couldn't grip. At the time, I had no idea what it was so I rushed him out of the house (fumes?) and kept him in the car but thought that was it. Withing five minutes he rebounded 100%.

I don't think it was fumes as there was no respiratory distress. My normal avian vet retired and I'm devastated. I took him to another avian vet last weekend and ran a full diagnostic. Exam was normal, labs came back within normal limits, gram stain had blooming yeast and he was given 1 wk antibiotics.

Last night, I caught the above video. Again it seems like he has weakness and is unable to stand. At the end he sort of panics and when I got him he seems a little out of it, but again, fully recovered. So thinking about going to the vet again or making a long drive to another specialist in NJ/NY area. Also of note, there are no new exposures in the home environment - no new toys, or food (Harrison), and has 100% supervised play, well because he is a caique

Does this look familiar to anyone?

 

[GaleriaGila]

I'm too squeamish to watch, but I'm no expert anyway.

I just wanted to express sympathy and support.

While we're waiting for the experts... maybe use the SEARCH tab to see if you can find any relevant theeads?

Good luck.

 

[socrjul]

I'm too squeamish to watch, but I'm no expert anyway.

I just wanted to express sympathy and support.

While we're waiting for the experts... maybe use the SEARCH tab to see if you can find any relevant theeads?

Good luck.

Thank you :60: The video isn't that bad - trust me, I was in tears watching sick parrot videos online and it broke my heart. I'm just thankful he is here, seemingly ok, and currently driving me crazy! Hopefully the video might help the vets with a second round of diagnostics. I love my little guy... my friends and family refer to him as the "demon bird" but I'm his person

 

[Scott]

Welcome to the forums, thanks for joining! I hope your future posts are more joyful!!

Hard to understand what is happening with Tocino, but my guess is it may be neurological? Just want to understand the timeline of the yeast presence and antibiotics; was he taking antibiotics at the time of this recorded event? If so, possible side effect?

I would definitely schedule a vet appointment ASAP. Whether it is with the current vet or another would depend on your level of confidence in the new individual vs desire for a second opinion.

 

[socrjul]

Welcome to the forums, thanks for joining! I hope your future posts are more joyful!!

Hard to understand what is happening with Tocino, but my guess is it may be neurological? Just want to understand the timeline of the yeast presence and antibiotics; was he taking antibiotics at the time of this recorded event? If so, possible side effect?

I would definitely schedule a vet appointment ASAP. Whether it is with the current vet or another would depend on your level of confidence in the new individual vs desire for a second opinion.

Hi Scott! I thought initially it was neurological as well. My vet said it sounded more cardiac because there wasn't thrashing or excessive movement, but now that there is a video who knows? I'm trying to arrange consult with my old vet (retired) and new vet.

The timeline is that the first episode was on the evening of 2/2. He went to the vet on Saturday 2/4 and labs were received on 2/5. Vet said the blood work was within normal range (they don't have a large caique database) and the only concern way that there was evidence of budding yeast in gram stain. He was on Nystatin .48 ml (100,00iu/ml) twice daily for 7 days - 2/5 - 2/11 for potential GI tract infection - but he had no symptoms of any form of infection prior to visit.

Based on timeline, doesn't seem like it is medication related.

Appreciate the feedback, hoping the video helps!

 

[EllenD]

That's really very bizarre...At the very beginning it's very confusing because he very obviously jumped to the side of his cage and ran down to the bottom, like something scared him. Then he stands down there, sometimes on one foot, sometimes on two, and he looks slightly unsteady (though it's hard to actually see what he's doing because the camera is too far away). Then it's like he panicked or was scared again. I've seen many birds fly frantically around their cages like that when they are scared, my cockatiel does it, so do my budgies. My Senegal parrot did this not that long ago, and when I went running to his cage I found my Shar Pei sitting right in front of his cage, so I assumed the dog scared him.

I wish the camera had been closer to see what he was doing right before he purposely ran down the side of his cage to the bottom. Was he sleeping and suddenly scared by something, enough that it put him in a bit of shock? You said that both times you came and got him and he was unsteady for a minute or two, then he was fine. His blood work is normal (I don't think budding yeast caused this at all), and he's not sick in any other way. I don't think it's fumes either because it would be a continuous thing that he would not recover from and be OK back inside. If weeks sperated the two attacks, I tend to think it's not an illness but rather an "event". I don't think that was a seizure because he purposely ran down the cage the way he did, very controlled. Had he fallen off his perch I would say yes, but it appears to me that something really scared him, he may have been sleeping this time when it happened, and he jumped off the perch, ran down to the bottom, and may have gone into a bit of shock or had some type of cardiac event that is causing the dizziness and his being unstable. It also appears like as he's going back and forth from one foot to two feet he is looking over towards the door, he does it a lot. Then right before he has his little fright flight he's looking over towards the door again and suddenly takes off, like something really scared him. This would also explain why he calms down and is 100% better as soon as you come and pick him up.

Where was he when this happened the first time? In his cage or in your home again, or outside? If both "attacks" occurred inside your house, is there something that could be freaking him out, like another animal? I see you have a dog, but I didn't see the dog prior to you walking in, but he was definitely looking towards the door, so it's possible something in the doorway startled him...

It could be a neurological event or a cardiac event, but the fact that it stops as soon as you come get him leads me to think if it is neurological or cardiac related (meaning the unsteadiness, the thrashing around his cage at the end looks like fright to me) it is being triggered by fear. If it were seizures he most likely would not be able to jump to the side of the cage and run down to the bottom like he did. I hope the vet has ideas, but my guess is something is really startling him and this is causing him to have these events.

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[EllenD]

Just to add this since your vet also said it sounded cardiac related and this is what I'm thinking as well, but a cardiac event caused by a fright, many birds have been known to die from night frights (which look just like the end of that video, that was not a seizure), horrible scares, and extreme stress. They typically die from either a cardiac arrest or a stroke or series of strokes or TIA's (mini strokes). The unsteadiness, disorientation, etc. is very typical of a cardiac event. But I don't believe it's just a cardiac event out of nowhere because #1 he first acts as though he's frightened by something and he ends it by acting very frightened by something, and #2 his blood work would most likely show cardiac issues, depending on what they ran. I doubt they ran cardiac enzymes, a coagulation panel, or a chem 7 panel, but these would help to check for signs of cardiac arrest or a stroke. His glucose level, if high or low, can mimic a stroke, a coag panel can test for blood clots in the brain (hemorrhagic stroke). But if his CBC was normal they probably didn't run any chemistry panels.

I was just thinking of the number of times I've read posts or heard stories of birds having a night fright, a freak out from being scared, etc. and then the bird died very directly afterwards due to the fright causing a cardiac event. I'm thinking that this is what is going on. Just my guess, lol, but it doesn't look neurologic to me at all, unless it's a hemorrhagic stroke, but I doubt that.

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[socrjul]

I wish the camera had been closer to see what he was doing right before he purposely ran down the side of his cage to the bottom. Was he sleeping and suddenly scared by something, enough that it put him in a bit of shock?

Thank you - all awesome observations! I think the one thing that points to non-seizure is that he was able to get himself to the bottom of the cage, not just falling off the perch.The thing that confuses me, is that if he is so scared... he gets to the bottom of the cage and scratches his head and puts a foot up?

I can zoom in my video. I don't see any lights/shadows that might have triggered him, the blinds were closed, and the dog (not mine, just my "rental") was with me. At first I thought the dog was in with the bird and the bird was trying to attack him.

The first time he was right in front of me, in the living room. He was playing in the bottom of his cage and started making weird sounds. I figured he REALLY wanted attentions and when I went to pick him up, he was almost limp. Could be a cardiac thing, non-cardiac, also I guess they could be unrelated. Maybe working from home I just now see EVERYTHING he does all the time!

Talked to vet and said fumes, heavy metal, yeast infection should be ruled out based on description of what is going on.

I'm going to test for Bornavirus - otherwise sounds like a watch and wait. Cardiac issues need to be evaluated while they happen, so unlikely that will happen. Sort of more of a weigh and see if it keeps happening. Someone else did mention high blood pressure could cause something similar.

***I'm going to ask to see the full panel. They said it was extensive (and expensive, lol) but I'm not sure if they did a full cardiac panel. I do know that the test had extended liver panels. All CBCs were normal with a minor WBC elevation***

THANK YOU

 

[EllenD]

I wish the camera had been closer to see what he was doing right before he purposely ran down the side of his cage to the bottom. Was he sleeping and suddenly scared by something, enough that it put him in a bit of shock?

Thank you - all awesome observations! I think the one thing that points to non-seizure is that he was able to get himself to the bottom of the cage, not just falling off the perch.The thing that confuses me, is that if he is so scared... he gets to the bottom of the cage and scratches his head and puts a foot up?

I can zoom in my video. I don't see any lights/shadows that might have triggered him, the blinds were closed, and the dog (not mine, just my "rental") was with me. At first I thought the dog was in with the bird and the bird was trying to attack him.

The first time he was right in front of me, in the living room. He was playing in the bottom of his cage and started making weird sounds. I figured he REALLY wanted attentions and when I went to pick him up, he was almost limp. Could be a cardiac thing, non-cardiac, also I guess they could be unrelated. Maybe working from home I just now see EVERYTHING he does all the time!

Talked to vet and said fumes, heavy metal, yeast infection should be ruled out based on description of what is going on.

I'm going to test for Bornavirus - otherwise sounds like a watch and wait. Cardiac issues need to be evaluated while they happen, so unlikely that will happen. Sort of more of a weigh and see if it keeps happening. Someone else did mention high blood pressure could cause something similar.

***I'm going to ask to see the full panel. They said it was extensive (and expensive, lol) but I'm not sure if they did a full cardiac panel. I do know that the test had extended liver panels. All CBCs were normal with a minor WBC elevation***

THANK YOU

Good idea to get the full results, the high WBC was probably caused by the yeast infection. It is quite frustrating because there are a million possibilities, yes high blood pressure fits right in with the cardiac problems, so does diabetes. Again I don't think it's seizure-related, but there was a study done on African Grays having seizure-like behavior and it was linked to the bird being diabetic. And in humans it's well known that either high or low blood glucose can cause symptoms that are very similar to stroke symptoms. So the possibilities are endless.

As you said his behavior of deliberately jumping off his perch to the cage bars and running down the side to the bottom (very quickly and like he was on a mission too) is what is making me think something really scared him, had he not done that I would be thinking differently. That combined with his behavior at the end before you walk in that looks just like a bird that has been surprised by something or has had a night fright is what is making this weird. If a person was acting like him and I could confirm that he was asleep on his perch just prior to the episode starting, I'd assume they were sleepwalking! That would also explain why once you pick him up he snaps out of it in a minute or two. Very, very odd.

Good idea with the camera, I'd keep it running and try to catch it again, but zoom in so you can see him a little better if you can. Maybe you can eventually see something happening that explains it while in the meantime eliminating medical conditions with blood work and other tests. Heavy metal poisoning is a possibility, the same as fumes, but recovery so quickly and then a long gap between episodes points away from both. Usually with fumes the birds only gets better when removed from the fumes and it takes much longer than a minute or two. Plus I don't know what fumes would be coming g and going in that room so quickly.

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[socrjul]

UPDATE Re: Caique with Fainting or Seizure - With Video - No Vet Dx

So, it happened again this evening.

https://video.nest.com/clip/f9dd4003a168419f9566c8c8ac3c4afa.mp4

Heard a thump - well he fell off the perch, so it's time to consider changing his cage. Vet appointment is on Wed for a second round of exams.

I know it's hard to see in the video... I wasn't near my phone and was worried. You can see his left leg kind of dangling. Entire episode was like 1 minute and he was totally normal after.

Frustrated... sad... terrible videographer.

 

[Scott]

Wow, that was one nasty fall, without any apparent use of wings to break the impact. Glad you have a vet appointment Wednesday, might consider modifying the cage with lower perches to lessen the risk of impact injury.

Nothing wrong with the video, might provide clues for the vet.

Good luck, please keep us informed!

 

[texsize]

That is hard to watch. especially after loosing my Plumas to something that was causing her to fall of her perch.
I put foam rubber on the bottom of the cage and then covered it with news paper (to keep the birds from eating the foam rubber). Bubble wrap would also help.
My prayers go with you. keep us informed.
texsize

 

[socrjul]

That is hard to watch. especially after loosing my Plumas to something that was causing her to fall of her perch.
I put foam rubber on the bottom of the cage and then covered it with news paper (to keep the birds from eating the foam rubber). Bubble wrap would also help.
My prayers go with you. keep us informed.
texsize

Great suggestion with the foam - although that's a chew toy, so I'd have to find a way to really cover it. I'm adding blankets for right now and I have another cage where the food/water is on the bottom and I can pull all the perches for his safety. Feel bad b/c he is normal almost all the time, but I don't want to risk it.

And, I hate sharing sad video - but maybe someone else out there has or will stumble across this and it will help them as well.

 

[EllenD]

Well that changes everything. I'm glad you're modifying his cage so he can't fall on that hard bottom anymore, as stated he didn't even try to break his fall with his wings. It obviously is something that happens suddenly, like a cardiac event, but he is very disoriented afterwards and can't stand. I don't know what to think, but I can't imagine a "budding yeast infection" is causing this. I'm very glad you are taking him back to the vet soon. If these attacks start happening more and more I'd try to get him in even sooner if possible, because things like mini-strokes could be a possibility and need to be addressed quickly. I'm at a loss, I'm so sorry you're both going through this. It very well could be a neurologic issue after all.

I'll be thinking about him, I hope they figure it out quickly.

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[socrjul]

UPDATE & Thank you to those following along

I had another vet visit last night. Since the last video I posted he has been happy and healthy with no other issues, so that is the good news. The vet still can't identify any direct cause, even after seeing the video. There are some additional blood tests we can do (bornovirus, etc) but she feels he is still too healthy to warrant any testing. Right now we are taking the direction that this might be nerve pain/weakness, which could either be from injury or from a growth or swelling of an internal organ. Since there is no evidence of a mass, we started by doing a week of meds for inflammation (metacam) and neuro pain (gabapentin) to see if that helps at all. I've also started him on the vetri-DMG as well.

We also talked about modifying the perches in the cage so that he can have a better grip on the bars wince he appears to have reached/missed his bowl. So at this time it's a wait and see and if it does happen again, getting a better video of him and testing for weakness/numbness on the legs. My rental dog leaves this weekend, so the bird will be out and about more. Also, I am going on vacation and was going to cancel, but now it might be a good thing - I can board him at the vet for 4 days where they will have observation available. Next step, if this continues, will be to do an x-ray and that requires sedation.

So the parrot, as much as he dislikes the vet, enjoyed the car ride and helped me pick out a new pair of shoes while he sat on the shopping cart. Feel bad for the little guy - but not sure he even knows anything is wrong. Best part is he seems to like this medicine, so no fighting! UPDATE


I had another vet visit last night. Since the last video I posted he has been happy and healthy with no other issues, so that is the good news. The vet still can't identify any direct cause, even after seeing the video. There are some additional blood tests we can do (bornovirus, etc) but she feels he is still too healthy to warrant any testing. Right now we are taking the direction that this might be nerve pain/weakness, which could either be from injury or from a growth or swelling of an internal organ. Since there is no evidence of a mass, we started by doing a week of meds for inflammation (metacam) and neuro pain (gabapentin) to see if that helps at all. I've also started him on the vetri-DMG as well.



We also talked about modifying the perches in the cage so that he can have a better grip on the bars wince he appears to have reached/missed his bowl. So at this time it's a wait and see and if it does happen again, getting a better video of him and testing for weakness/numbness on the legs. My rental dog leaves this weekend, so the bird will be out and about more. Also, I am going on vacation and was going to cancel, but now it might be a good thing - I can board him at the vet for 4 days where they will have observation available. Next step, if this continues, will be to do an x-ray and that requires sedation.



So the parrot, as much as he dislikes the vet, enjoyed the car ride and helped me pick out a new pair of shoes while he sat on the shopping cart. Feel bad for the little guy - but not sure he even knows anything is wrong. Best part is he seems to like this medicine, so no fighting!

 

[Scott]

Glad you had a productive vet visit and some meds to attack possible culprits. If no improvement, a series of X-Rays may be beneficial. Understandably the vet is cognizant of the inherent risk of sedation, particularly when confronting an unknown situation. Modern Isoflurane or Sevoflurane anesthesia gas is generally safe and given for very brief periods of time during diagnostics as opposed to a lengthy surgery.

Good luck, and let us know how Tocino progresses.

 

[socrjul]

Update time...

It's been over a month and Tocino is as happy as can be. Thought we were past everything since I hadn't noticed an episode in a long time - almost a month! I was really hoping it was just a pulled muscles or nerve pain, but I woke up to a weird noise and it seemed to have happened again.

Sharing the video if anyone is interested. This whole thing is strange. He must know something is happening because he is trying to get himself to ground level. This time after I picked him up he didn't seem to still have weakness like the other times. I'm still going to hold off on additional work ups until I feel like this is happening a bit more frequently. Since he seems happy and healthy and I notice no other changes (and options are limited) I'm just going to go with it.

I take the vets recommendations to heart - but this isn't just clumsiness. Maybe he has vertigo - who knows... I'm just grateful this isn't progressing, but I do wish it would go away. So, link below.

https://video.nest.com/clip/2f051168b79942038e7fde97abe3b7e1.mp4

In other news... this whole thing has me on a mission/excuse to replace all my cookware with safe alternatives - carbon steel, ss, ceramics. Something that I should have done ages ago.

 

[EllenD]

Oh man, I was wondering about this a few days ago, I was hoping he stopped having these episodes.

I thought the same thing, especially on the second video where he very obviously purposely and as quickly as possible jumped from the perch to the side of the cage, scurried quickly down the side to the bottom, and once standing on the flat, level floor he started wobbling and having the "episode".

Epileptics sometimes know right before they are going to have a seizure, so that may be a possibility, but I can't think of anything else that he would be aware of right before it happens...I'm on a mission now!

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

 

[socrjul]

UPDATE: Good Video of Episode

Last night I was hanging with the bird watching tv for about an hour when he started the weird noises - I knew an episode was coming. So finally good videos. Video 1 and 2 show progression - Video 3 is where you can see the full weakness and what it looks like. And yes, I am pitching his foot - pretty hard - as a neuro test for the vet to see. The entire thing lasted 3 minutes and right after he was pooping, eating, back to normal.

Video 1: [ame="https://youtu.be/qVd0mvgWy8A"]Toc Chatter - YouTube[/ame]


Video 2: [ame="https://youtu.be/2Bp_qmZSgwY"]Toc weakness starting - YouTube[/ame]


Video 3: [ame="https://youtu.be/jyjbv6fRb28"]Toc weakness - YouTube[/ame]

 

[texsize]

Watched your videos.
IMO the reason for the "pecking" he does to your hand is out of fear.
He knows he is vulnerable when he is having one of these seizures and by grabbing his foot he may thing he needs to defend himself.
I know you were doing what you were doing find out the extent of the paralysis. But he doesn't know that.
texsize