Amazon Plucking

[henpecked]

I'd suggest consulting another AV. It might be best if your AV did that. The consulting vet would appreciate talking with someone knowledgeable and understands the "lingo". If your Vet balks , then do it yourself.I know the Vet you need to talk to. He only sees parrots, for zoos ,breeders,pet birds and inspects quarantine parrots for the USDA. PM me and i'll be glad to give you his contact info. Best AV in the USA (IMO) and i;ve meet alot of them.

 

[Kiwibird]

If' its not metal toxicity, I don't have a clue what it could be. This is a bird who was never sick a day in his life for 11 years. I hope he *knows* how much I love and care for him. If he doesn't sleep, I don't sleep. If he's upset, I'm upset. This certainly takes the *starch* out of you - emotionally, yes.

It's just like having a sick child- and I'm *SURE* he understands you are doing everything you can and are there for him. They may not understand our words, but they are very receptive to our emotions and intentions with them.

If I were you, I would take henpecked up on his offer. He is kind of the resident "zon expert" around here, and if he knows of a vet good enough he would recommend them, don't miss out on that opportunity to have your AV or just personally consult with this vet if your isn't willing. Just like with people, there are rare diseases and disorders out there that a regular AV might never see in their entire time practicing, and your birds mystery ailment sounds like one of those things that just isn't common and my be above and beyond most vets. I hope he is back on the meds that relieved the symptoms so he can feel better while you're figuring out the underlying cause.

 

[getwozzy]

Re: Amazon Plucking & Twitching

I really do hope you get some answers at some point- I can imagine that this has been very draining for both of you.

I think getting another vet's opinion is a good idea- I would take Capt (henpecked) up on the offer of getting you in touch with that vet. Like Kiwibird said- It could be a case of something the vets you've dealt with so far have not seen yet.... One of my dogs was diagnosed with a weird disease, and my vet just *happened* to have previously dealt with it and was able to diagnose her and prescribe meds to manage it (she will have it the rest of her life).

Don't give up hope- answers are out there! We're all rooting for you both!!

 

[Amethyst]

Hello - thank you ! Yes - I will PM you for the info

thanks everyone !! xo

I appreciate the support. I will keep you all updated! xo

 

[Amethyst]

Forgive me because I am not a tech savvy person but I tried to upload a video of his symptoms: (not sure if I did this correctly)

[ame=http://youtu.be/n7FpRmUcFFs]Symptoms - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Amethyst]

Just fyi - I don't post his name (my pet or vet) because of privacy reasons. Someone else who may use the same vet might feel different than I, so to keep this whole thing politically correct, I'd rather not.

Seems that when my bird is on the CA EDTA medicine, he does well and the symptoms go away. When he is off the meds for a week or so, they return. I've asked my vet if s/he would speak to another vet who is in another state far away (so no threat or competition to either of their business) but has a lot of experience with metal toxicity issues and my vet refused.

I'm shocked and extremely angry because I thought most doctors do that and consult with one another especially if one doctor admits to not seeing a lot of cases of a particular illness. I just don't understand the refusal. This is appalling to me.

Right now he is back on meds. Once he is off, then what...? This is ridiculous and has been going on for too long now.

 

[MonicaMc]

So sorry you're having to go through this all and with a vet that wont consult with another vet.

Is there any way to go to another avian vet for a second opinion, taking all medical records with you?

 

[Kiwibird]

I am shocked your vet isn't willing to consult with another vet when he can clearly not figure out whats going on. No one knows everything, so I cannot imagine why this request would be so offensive to him. His ego/pride should not overshadow the health and life of your bird. If it were me, I would call around to other AVs or even exotics vets who have experience with birds and (without giving your information) briefly explain the situation (your vet is unable to diagnose your bird and you want a second opinion is all you really need to say) and can they examine your bird confidentially. I'm sure you can find one who would be able to examine your bird confidentially and who might actually consult with someone who knows what they're talking about instead of just puffing out their chest and saying "my opinion is the only opinion". OR, if you have another out of state vet with experience in the heavy metal toxicity in mind, perhaps contact them directly, explain the situation (including the desire for this to be confidential) and see if they can refer you to a vet in your area who would be willing to examine/test your bird locally and report back the findings to them for a consultation.

Edit: That video is so sad The poor baby, I really am hoping someone can diagnose and treat him.

 

[Amethyst]

I'm doing just that. I've got an appointment with yet another vet...*sigh*

I am shocked your vet isn't willing to consult with another vet when he can clearly not figure out whats going on. No one knows everything, so I cannot imagine why this request would be so offensive to him. His ego/pride should not overshadow the health and life of your bird. If it were me, I would call around to other AVs or even exotics vets who have experience with birds and (without giving your information) briefly explain the situation (your vet is unable to diagnose your bird and you want a second opinion is all you really need to say) and can they examine your bird confidentially. I'm sure you can find one who would be able to examine your bird confidentially and who might actually consult with someone who knows what they're talking about instead of just puffing out their chest and saying "my opinion is the only opinion". OR, if you have another out of state vet with experience in the heavy metal toxicity in mind, perhaps contact them directly, explain the situation (including the desire for this to be confidential) and see if they can refer you to a vet in your area who would be willing to examine/test your bird locally and report back the findings to them for a consultation.

Edit: That video is so sad The poor baby, I really am hoping someone can diagnose and treat him.

 

[95talongirl]

Any updates on this?

One thing to remember is that metal toxicity tends to take a very long time to overcome. Something that can take months!

Also, check the nuts and bolts that the cage is held together with. Many times those can be a source of zinc.

Do you still have him on the Celebrex? Or was that ceased? If so, does he still respond well to it? Celebrex is used to treat arthritis in humans, which is an autoimmune disease. As such, it works because it calms the immune response down. This is why it works pretty well with PDD birds; it calms down immune response to damage the nerves of ABV-infected cells. So while, it does not "cure" it, it relieves the symptoms.

So, that could be pointing to something autoimmune; like allergies. But at this point, I am betting he is still fighting the zinc that's in his system.

Best of luck, he's a beauty. I wish you both the best.

 

[Amethyst]

I have an update....I had asked his regular to vet to consult by phone with another vet whom I heard had a lot of experience with metal toxicity. He refused saying they'd both get the same results. So I faxed all the test results to this other doctor in another state and he said he'd review them.

In the meantime, I found another certified well-known avian vet about 1.5 hours from my house. We took him there and he had a FULL work up, a lot of the SAME tests he already had, another x-ray, plus a lead test which he did not have before. ALL his tests results came out....NEGATIVE including the lead test. X-ray, negative, zinc & lead, negative - ALL of the blood work came out normal.

We discussed ways of trying to get him to put on some weight since his keel bone was showing. We are now watching him closely and if the symptoms creep up again, I will call this new vet and we'll take it from there.

The strange thing is this: I stopped giving him the CA EDTA a day or two before taking him to this new vet. His twitching and plucking started to gradually slow down after his vet visit...now he is presently NOT twitching and not plucking although I do see him preen more than he used to, with sometimes little white feathers so that's not gone 100%. He doesn't play as much as he used to in his cage after all he's been through since January - poor little guy. I don't want to say he is cured or back to 100% because every time I think so, it starts up again. But it baffles me how the symptoms could disappear. So right now he is NOT on ANY medication and holding his own!

This new doctor isn't positive it was the zinc even though his very first zinc test came out positive. I'm no veterinarian but from everything I've read and learned since he first got sick in January 2014, I'm thinking it was zinc and that remnants of it, was still leeching from his bones until it is now gone. Keep in mind that NO METALS were found in his TWO x-rays.

I'm emotionally fried (and broke) from all this but I'm glad he is showing signs of feeling better - money well spent in my opinion. I hope he stays well and can gain weight. The new vet advised that in addition to his Harrison's food, to give him Senior Nutri-berries and Power Treats besides vegetables and fruits. She also said that if he starts plucking or twitching to not run to his cage and "fawn" over him - as that might encourage him to do it more since it gets a reaction from me...But so far, knock wood, this hasn't happened.

He seems to be a picky eater. Loves his Power Treats, is "ok" with the Nutri-berries, he eats his Harrison's like a good boy, but I need other suggestions to fatten him up as he is still too thin. I'm considering buying the birdie bread mix unless someone can offer a better alternative. I want him to get healthy weight not junk food weight. Not too much sugar either..

Thank you all for your support, well wishes, suggestions and concern! It was greatly appreciated ! I spent many nights (and days) looking all over the Internet for answers!

I'm exhausted folks ! :30:

 

[MonicaMc]

I've used Red Palm Oil and Coconut Oil on my bourke parakeets food to get some weight onto her. She was eating Harrison's High Potency, which wasn't working alone to help increase weight, so I added oil to the pellets.

When I switched Charlie over to Harrison's, he gained weight with nothing else added.

 

[95talongirl]

I am very happy to hear that he is showing signs of improvement! I completely understand how you feel, the constant vet visits and such are draining. I am just glad that things seem to be improving.

As far as weight gain, I think you're on the right track. Offering up some seed-based treats should help, as well as some nuts here and there.

 

[PsittacineLife]

Like was state earlier, nuts and bolts are frequently galvanized or zinc plated, unfortunately. They are much cheaper than stainless steel. Also, wooden perches with metal hardware on the end are also almost always galvanized or zinc plated. I worked at a reputable local bird store here in florida, and every single perch used zinc plated hardware. All the cages used zinc plated nuts, bolts and latches. Every single playstand used zinc plated screws. I have a cockatoo who loves to chew on metal, so I began making my own perches, toys, and playstands using stainless steel hardware, and even tried selling some of them in the store. Unfortunately, most people wanted to buy the cheapest supplies they could and stuck with the zinc even after being educated on the subject. The owner of the store said the zinc has never been a problem, and even the distributor told me stainless steel was overrated and zinc was fine. I often wondered how many birds had heavy-metal poisoning because of ignorance? And like-wise how many owners perform a necropsy on their birds? Well, unfortunately people like to save money, especially in this economy, and their pets pay the price. Thank you for taking such good care of your Amazon. Your efforts truly do show what a good person you are. If I ever had to rehome my fids, I hope they go to someone as dedicated as you. I do wonder if it's possible he's getting (or got) very small pieces of zinc that he was able to pass before the x-rays? Thus have elevated zinc but no physical particles showing up. I do have a question though. Have you been giving him attention when he plucks? I adopted a plucker (blue & gold macaw) and have had trouble with roommates going up to her and telling her to stop plucking or other methods of attention thinking they are doing her good (look she stops when I give her attention!). Anyways, good luck, I hope he keeps getting better!

 

[Birdman666]

I am so sorry to hear this has started worsening I do have a suspicion it's either a deficiency in his diet, or an allergy either to a food or an environmental factor (such as an air freshener spray or cleaning chemical). I really hope he improves soon.

I was thinking the same things... this is definitely NOT a psychological issue. It's either a neurological event, or it's environmental. If it were neurological, it wouldn't stop when you gave him the zinc medicine, would it? Zinc toxicity definitely can cause the symptoms you described. I'm still thinking it's some sort of toxic exposure.

I'm not a vet, however, and really am not competent to offer you anything but my sympathy.

 

[henpecked]

Glad to hear your buddy is doing better. Is he putting on any weight yet? Please keep us informed.

 

[Amethyst]

His weight fluctuates - he is a picky eater...so it's a bit challenging. He had no twitching or plucking for about 3 weeks...then this past weekend it started up - not constantly but intermittently. His *new* vet wants me to bring him back in - and may start him on Lupron. Says it could be a hormonal problem. I don't understand this. If his zinc levels with the first test were elevated, then the second and third zinc tests were normal, plus the times he was on CA EDTA, he had no symptoms....then how could hormones now play a factor ? He is a male by the way. Does this make sense to anyone? (Now I have to do my homework on Lupron !)

The other thing is --- I thought Lupron was only used for female parrots...? Does this sound right to you guys ??

 

[henpecked]

No it doesn't sound right. I too thought Lupron was for hen parrots. I'd ask, why the lupron? IMO the symptoms are recurring because the zinc is still somewhere in his system.,or reentering his system somehow. I could see where the CA EDTA could rid his body of available zinc and then again be present after treatment. I'd test again for zinc before starting another treatment. Any consults with the Vet i recommended?

 

[Amethyst]

I faxed him all the test results from the original vet and after a few weeks he got back to me and said the results look pretty standard and nothing out of the ordinary, but might do a bacterial test.

I already had that done and it was negative so no need. Then I found a new avian board certified vet - again - some distance from me, but at least communicates better with me than Vet #1. I'll go see this vet another time to listen to the options but I don't know if I'm going to agree or jump on this Lupron med. I'm no doctor but I am skeptical about it.

I'm with you on the zinc...even though he tested ok the last two times after, my guess is there might still be remnants of it.

In the 12 years I've had him, he was never hormonal ever, never made any hormonal gestures that I've read about. He was always a happy-go-lucky amazon who plays in his cage, chatters when he wants and of course bites when he's feeling the urge to bite (like amazons do !) But he is / was never the kind of amazon that you can cuddle and tickle on his back. He won't allow it. He allows scratches on the top of his head, but there's no "under the wing" petting or "shoulder sitting" or being tickled while lying on his back. This little guy is the boss and won't allow that. He'd bite my finger off. He's a typical amazon. And he was DNA tested so I know he's a male.

No it doesn't sound right. I too thought Lupron was for hen parrots. I'd ask, why the lupron? IMO the symptoms are recurring because the zinc is still somewhere in his system.,or reentering his system somehow. I could see where the CA EDTA could rid his body of available zinc and then again be present after treatment. I'd test again for zinc before starting another treatment. Any consults with the Vet i recommended?

 

[Amethyst]

Follow-up vet day! Doctor explained Lupron (over $200 for a shot) and I thought about it but declined this time and instead asked for another zinc blood test. He's doesn't twitch as much - and not often - he's still pulling his feathers from his back. The doctor talked about Borna Virus. He's had two tests for this already - both negative results. Vet said 3 results for negative are needed to totally rule out Borna Virus. I will test for this again next time.

Also bought some Harrison's Bird bread and made that for him the minute I got home. He seems to like it. Also got a bag of recovery to sprinkle on his food. All this is to hopefully put some weight on him. His weight fluctuates around 351 give or take a few. I wish he would gain to at least the high 300s or 400.

Keeping my fingers crossed for improvement although it seems soo slow!

He was not happy with the visit and bit both doctor and assistant.