Giant leap - backward.

****UPDATE in POST #10!!!*****Giant leap - backward.

We just got back from 10 days in Mexico, and Sammy came back from the sitter. The sitter said that the first couple of days, he was reasonably friendly, but became more aggressive as time went on.

When he was home, back on his own cage & apparently content, I approached him as normal, using the usual soft baby talk he loves. When I got close, though, he attacked. In the years I've had him, he's never bitten me, but this was a full-out rage attack, drawing blood, and then he flew off around the house. I finally had to towel him to be able to put him in his cage. After giving him a couple of hours to calm down, I approached his cage again, but he flew into a rage, hurling himself at the bars and trying to bite through them to get to me. I covered his cage, and hoped that today things would improve. No such luck. As soon as he sees me now, he flies into a full-out rage attack.

We've done the same trip, at the same time, every year, and each time Sammy has gone to the same sitter, and been with the same flock. Each time when I returned, he was a sweet, loving attentive bird, thrilled to be back with his daddy, and wanting to be with me more than anything in the world.


The loving, bonded Sammy I loved seems to be gone. As he's never tolerated the presence of my wife (and she is afraid of him), I'm at a loss now as to how to even feed him. It looks like it will involve tossing food into the cage from a distance, as neither of us can even approach within a few feet. Anything closer and I fear he'll injure himself trying to attack me through the bars.

At this point, I'll be taking him to the vet to see if he's sick (although he certainly appears extremely healthy). He's well past the hormonal stage of his life, so that's not a factor. Beyond illness, I'm at a loss. Even when I first got him (as an adult, rescue bird), he was reasonably friendly, if a bit standoff-ish, but he warmed to me within a day, and we've been best friends ever since.

Now, he can't even stand to have me in the room with him.

He's obviously extremely unhappy with our house and his flock now and I fear that, barring illness being responsible, I may have to find him a new home. I'm devastated.

Each bird is different and handles separation differently, but all of my current flock and others had to endure separations of up to six months at a time for several years, with only a few days to a couple of weeks during my return, but I also created a couple of home videos that were played for them.....I don't know if staying in their house helped, but whenever I would come home, they usually only showed their displeasure for a couple of days, then they were OK.....

Though I don't know for sure, but the fact that I had a very good bird sitting neighbor who would come twice a day to change food & water and cage clean once a week, I think helped.....

Hi there.

If you just got back it might be a bit early to think about rehoming, isn't it?

I know this might sound insane to many, but when I knew I was going to bring home a new bird, and knowing that Milo is afraid of anything new in his environment, I literally sat down with him and explained that I was going to fetch a new friend and that he will always be important. I realize that he does not understand what I am telling him, but I do think think they understand that you are trying to convey something to them.

When I brought the huge new cages and huge bird in, he showed no signs of stress at all. No jumping around in the cage, nothing. Just sat and watched which is truly amazing for a bird that goes nuts if you just buy a new toy. Everything is going to eat him, Lol.

Sit down with your baby, talk to him, explain that you did not stop loving him and did not abandon him. Unfortunately you don't know if something very scary happened at the sitter as people don't always like to be honest about everything. This might be his way of telling you "I was scared, I got hurt, I thought you left me"

Just give him a chance to settle down and slowly start building trust again.

I'm still hopeful, but extremely worried - the ferocity of his attacks are something I've not seen before, even in wild birds (including hawks, eagles, ravens, etc.) that I deal with frequently. To be honest, I wouldn't have been surprised for him to express annoyance at our separation (although this hasn't happened in the past), but the violence of his attacks has me extremely worried for his safety. Repeatedly smashing into the bars with his wings, face and beak is truly scary, and I don't want him to be hurt by it.

I guess leaving him alone for a few days is the best course of action at this point. Unfortunately, his very large cage is in the living room (it won't fit anywhere else), and avoiding the room (by going outside & walking around the house) isn't a great option. He does calm down when his cage is covered (unless he hears my voice - then he goes crazy again), so we may have to do that a lot.

Keep your fingers crossed for us!

Here's a question for those who've had this kind of problem - we also have an African Grey (a fairly new arrival - the two birds, at least at this stage, seem to get along - the CAG makes a phone-ringing sound, and Sammy says "Hello? Hello?"), and my question is this:

Do you think that if I give obvious attention to Reno (the Grey), in Sammy's presence, that it will make Sammy relent & consider wanting my attention again, or will it chase him away even more?

Sammy continues to get even more violent. I got near his cage tonight, and he lunged and bit my forearm, slicing through my heavy denim shirt and cutting into my arm in two places. He wouldn't let go, and I had to yank my arm away. No one can go near him now.

I think what may have caused this is when we were leaving, I was the one who put him in a travel carrier, which he hates, for him to go to the sitter's.

Our bird-knowledgeable friend says I need to be consistent, maintaining the same routine we had in the past. Unfortunately, none of our old routine is possible anymore. I can't even get food to his dishes, as I have to toss it in to the bottom of his cage. I'm beginning to doubt I'll ever get my Sammy back, and I'm truly heartbroken at the thought of losing him. I wish I had some idea of what to do.

mh434 said:

Here's a question for those who've had this kind of problem - we also have an African Grey (a fairly new arrival - the two birds, at least at this stage, seem to get along - the CAG makes a phone-ringing sound, and Sammy says "Hello? Hello?"), and my question is this:

Do you think that if I give obvious attention to Reno (the Grey), in Sammy's presence, that it will make Sammy relent & consider wanting my attention again, or will it chase him away even more?

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He'll be jealous... but that may be a good thing. In all likelihood, it wouldn't mess things up, and may make things better, so it's worth a try.

mh434 said:

Sammy continues to get even more violent. I got near his cage tonight, and he lunged and bit my forearm, slicing through my heavy denim shirt and cutting into my arm in two places. He wouldn't let go, and I had to yank my arm away. No one can go near him now.

I think what may have caused this is when we were leaving, I was the one who put him in a travel carrier, which he hates, for him to go to the sitter's.

Our bird-knowledgeable friend says I need to be consistent, maintaining the same routine we had in the past. Unfortunately, none of our old routine is possible anymore. I can't even get food to his dishes, as I have to toss it in to the bottom of his cage. I'm beginning to doubt I'll ever get my Sammy back, and I'm truly heartbroken at the thought of losing him. I wish I had some idea of what to do.

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1. You're giving up to easy. Training is a lifelong thing with birds. Retraining is called for.

2. I would suspect it was the travel carrier, and he's holding a grudge. Sometimes you've got to wait it out. Sometimes you just have to be more stubborn than they are. Ooohhh... the big bad birdie! Wanna see my big bad towel? No?! Step up! Knock it off! Behave. (Wanna treat and a head scratch? I missed you too...)

3. I would go back to basics with this bird. A crash course in no bite, and step up is called for. If he misbehaves, towel him, and let him know in no uncertain terms that biting is unacceptable and will not be tolerated! (Amazon bites are no joke! They can inflict serious degloving injuries.)

4. If he is attacky, he gets clipped. This is a safety issue. Wings grow out at the next molt. By then his attitude will be adjusted, and his training will reinforce the good behaviors.

I'm not giving up, at least not yet. He's drawn blood twice more today (once while trying to offer peanuts, his favorite treat - he knocked it aside to attack me), and you're right, Amazon bites can be serious business. He means to inflict harm, for sure - he clamps down, grinds, and doesn't let go. It's so difficult, as he's never bit anyone before. If he catches sight of me, or even hears my voice, he goes wild.

He did, for a minute, allow me to touch his beak, and for just a moment I thought there might be progress. In fact, he was just luring me in for an almighty bite - struck like lightning, biting deeply into my finger, which is now bleeding, bruised and swollen.

I've never trained a bird before, so I'm going to have to learn how before I can even start. Any ideas on where I can learn how to tame a wild Amazon?

****update!!!*****

This afternoon, Sammy started tolerating my presence better, and played with his toys. Early this evening, he started caressing his cheek softly with his foot, like he always did when he was lonely & wanting attention.

Finally, he moved to the front of his cage top and started talking. I went over to him, for about the hundredth time today, and reached my arm up to him. He reached out with his beak, I braced for the chomp...and he stepped up onto my arm!! I was in Heaven!! He even let me work on his neck pinfeathers for a bit. After just a couple of minutes he got restless, though, and I took him back to his cage and gave him a peanut.

A few minutes later, he asked to step up again and, this time, he stayed on me for an hour, for a long head rub, beak rubs, gentle kisses, and generally being his old cuddly self. I only took him back when he signaled it was time for him to poop (he always did this - he's NEVER pooped on me).

I was terrified I was losing him, but it looks like he missed the attention as much as I did, and it looks like my Sammy has returned to me! Right now, he's sitting on top of his cage, carrying on a 3-way conversation with himself (3 different voices, all with different pitch & inflection, punctuated with laughter from the various voices). He's also conversing with Reno the CAG, across the room, the two of them chattering away happily.

I just HAD to let you all know!!

Thanks to your all for your kind words and encouragement - you kept me going through a terrible week, gave me hope, and saw me through!!!

I don't have any Amazon experience, but I followed your thread, and your last update brought a smile to my face. I am a huge baseball fan and had a 30 game plan for the dodgers. So during the spring and summer I would occasionally be gone for most of the day. (30 games spread out over the course of 7 months). Loco, my gcc would let me know how mad he was that something other than him had my attention. He wouldn't bite, but I would get ignored!! LOL.

I am glad things are looking bright for you, your family and Sammy again!

Re: ****update!!!*****

mh434 said:

This afternoon, Sammy started tolerating my presence better, and played with his toys. Early this evening, he started caressing his cheek softly with his foot, like he always did when he was lonely & wanting attention.

Finally, he moved to the front of his cage top and started talking. I went over to him, for about the hundredth time today, and reached my arm up to him. He reached out with his beak, I braced for the chomp...and he stepped up onto my arm!! I was in Heaven!! He even let me work on his neck pinfeathers for a bit. After just a couple of minutes he got restless, though, and I took him back to his cage and gave him a peanut.

A few minutes later, he asked to step up again and, this time, he stayed on me for an hour, for a long head rub, beak rubs, gentle kisses, and generally being his old cuddly self. I only took him back when he signaled it was time for him to poop (he always did this - he's NEVER pooped on me).

I was terrified I was losing him, but it looks like he missed the attention as much as I did, and it looks like my Sammy has returned to me! Right now, he's sitting on top of his cage, carrying on a 3-way conversation with himself (3 different voices, all with different pitch & inflection, punctuated with laughter from the various voices). He's also conversing with Reno the CAG, across the room, the two of them chattering away happily.

I just HAD to let you all know!!

Thanks to your all for your kind words and encouragement - you kept me going through a terrible week, gave me hope, and saw me through!!!

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THAT IS AN AMAZON GRUDGE...

IT IS THE OPPOSITE OF AN AMAZON CRUSH...

THIS IS EXACTLY WHY I PAY A GROOMER TO DO MY ZONS... WHERE I COULD DO IT MYSELF... BECAUSE THEY ARE PISS-EY WITH ME FOR DAYS AFTERWORD IF I DO IT (Horror! Betrayal!) AND THEY RUN OVER TO ME FOR COMFORT AND CUDDLING IF SOMEONE ELSE DOES IT...

("That's what you get for stuffing me in that little carrier! You know I hate it! You MUST be punished... and this is going to hurt you more than it hurts me!)

All has now been forgiven. Things should be 100% back to normal soon, if not already...

And YES I have rehabbed my share of wild amazons and macaws, so anything you need just ask...

My solution to the amazon grudge thing has been to just let them be for awhile and let it run it's course.

Mine both know that I'm not going to sit there and tolerate "being punished" by a bird. (I WILL GO GET MY TOWEL!) So I do get nipped, but it rarely breaks the skin. (Although I do still get triangle shaped indentations - usually on my thumb - and those hurt.)

Amazons grinding on you - that's when you know they're really upset with you!

Got that a few times myself... so I feel (have felt) your pain.

My guess is the carrier is the trigger. Bigger travel cage or car seat may be a long term solution.

My zons are car seat trained. And that is the opposite reaction to being put in a carrier. They LOVE, LOVE, LOVE car rides - "you're the best bird dad ever!!!" (Unless they are pouting because they didn't get to come... )

(And this particular bird in this picture could not be handled when I got her. So, yeah, "wild" "biting" zons can still be tamed and trained.)

Well, Sammy's not totally back to his old self - he's still standoff-ish at times (he'll make the I'm gonna-bite-you lunge, then run away to the far side of his cage), but after a while he'll let me rub his neck again.

Baby steps...but I'm not giving up - I'm determined to have my old cuddle bird back!

mh434 said:

Well, Sammy's not totally back to his old self - he's still standoff-ish at times (he'll make the I'm gonna-bite-you lunge, then run away to the far side of his cage), but after a while he'll let me rub his neck again.

Baby steps...but I'm not giving up - I'm determined to have my old cuddle bird back!

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Reverse psychology usually works. Ignore him for awhile.

Reverse psychology with food works even better. Sit down where he can see you eating some treat that he really, really, really likes, and pretend he doesn't exist...

Watch how fast you two become best friends again!

Cracking walnuts and eating them without even looking at my bird usually does it... Next thing I know she's waddling over and climbing up my leg!

Oh? Are we friends again? I thought you didn't like me today...

mh434 said:

He's still standoff-ish at times...

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I'd say that's "within normal limits" for a zon. They all are to an extent. They're pretty independent.

And they are "contrary" chickens... they want to, but they're scared (recoil in horror at the suggestion and make like you're gonna bite!) Until they do it, they retreat from it. (But they really, really want to...) and once they do it, and discover they didn't die from it, they get carried away and go into "overload" mode.

Wind them up, and they can't stop...

They're quirky, funny birds.

Re: ****update!!!*****

mh434 said:

This afternoon, Sammy started tolerating my presence better, and played with his toys.

I just HAD to let you all know!!

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I am so happy for you!!!!!

I'm trying to encourage his "ups" by making each one as fun & interesting as I can - handing him new toys to investigate, touring around the house, etc. At the moment, he's sitting on my arm, preening and cooing contentedly, while I type, one-handed...badly. I'm loving it!!

I left Buddy with my parents for 3 days. When I went to pick him up, WOW was he mad. He'd lung at me trying to bite, I'd give him popcorn, he'd take it and throw it. I didn't experience what you are dealing with but Buddy finally got over his temper tantrum after a few hours. Keep up the good work it sounds like he's slowly coming off his high horse.

Taw5106 said:

I left Buddy with my parents for 3 days. When I went to pick him up, WOW was he mad. He'd lung at me trying to bite, I'd give him popcorn, he'd take it and throw it. I didn't experience what you are dealing with but Buddy finally got over his temper tantrum after a few hours. Keep up the good work it sounds like he's slowly coming off his high horse.

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I either get that one, or I get the opposite - CLINGY BIRD SYNDROME!

NEVER SET ME DOWN... WE WERE AFRAID WE'D LOST YOU!!!

NEVER LEAVE ME AGAIN... PLEASE! LET ME COME WITH YOU...

LAST TIME YOU DIDN'T COME BACK FOR DAYS, AND I WAS WORRIED...