Urgent - Picking at feet

[katie_fleming]

Well Jasper had a bit of wing flipping again yesterday. *Sigh* He was back on his pellets (only a tiny amount) for 2 days prior so I'm not totally convinced it's that.

I bring him back to his vet tomorrow for a checkup. Since everyone in the private Ekkie group is convinced it's diet related (at least 6 people have all said their Ekkies had the same thing) I'm wondering if I should re-do his blood work to see where his Calcium levels are at (what else would I be checking??). Or, if I just continue with his revamped diet for awhile and see where he is.

His last bloodwork was done end of April, so it hasn't been all that long. Not sure what to do. Do I leave him be with new diet and monitor for awhile, or do I do bloodwork ~5 months since his last one?

@AmyMyBlueFront - Jasper proudly picked up every micro green and flung it to the bottom of his cage this morning. I understand your frustration LOL

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Well Jasper had a bit of wing flipping again yesterday. *Sigh* He was back on his pellets (only a tiny amount) for 2 days prior so I'm not totally convinced it's that.

I bring him back to his vet tomorrow for a checkup. Since everyone in the private Ekkie group is convinced it's diet related (at least 6 people have all said their Ekkies had the same thing) I'm wondering if I should re-do his blood work to see where his Calcium levels are at (what else would I be checking??). Or, if I just continue with his revamped diet for awhile and see where he is.

His last bloodwork was done end of April, so it hasn't been all that long. Not sure what to do. Do I leave him be with new diet and monitor for awhile, or do I do bloodwork ~5 months since his last one?

@AmyMyBlueFront - Jasper proudly picked up every micro green and flung it to the bottom of his cage this morning. I understand your frustration LOL

Hi Katie..

Personally, I think i'd wait on the blood work and watch if his new and improved diet has any effect,but then you'd feel MORE guilty,watching him tap and/or flip for another month or so
Katie,as others have commented. DO NOT beat yourself up!
You are being an awesome MOM to that boy,and have gone well beyond and above what some people would do for him!

Jim

 

[Violet_Diva]

Just now reading all this, and that was alot to catch up on! I feel for you Katie. Looks like everyone has been very supportive and forthcoming with advice from their experiences which is great. I'm sure you'll get to the bottom of this and work out the food ratios for keeping the little green boy from having episodes. Poor Jasper. Thinking of you guys. Please keep posting updates, your journey is not only valuable to future ekkies and thier humans but I'm certain that you must be aware by now of how fond of Jasper the parrot forum community is!

GO TEAM JASPER

Get well soon xxx

 

[Anansi]

I'd go ahead with the calcium test and compare the levels to his prior results, Katie. If there has been very little change, that would be further indication that he's suffering from a calcium deficiency.

At this point, way I see it, the issue is most likely either calcium deficiency, a food sensitivity, or the variant of PDD I've been discussing with you. You've covered your bases rather well with the PDD possibilities by way of Jasper's medications and the x-rays taken. The possibility of a dietary sensitivity you're currently addressing by stripping down his diet for the next few weeks and slowly adding other foods to narrow down the list of potential culprits. (Although I must stress that you need to completely remove pellets from Jasper's diet for at least 2 weeks if you want to properly eliminate it as a suspect.)

So checking his calcium levels will allow you to cover the final third of the trio of possible causes. I know it's only been 5 months, but that is enough time to measure an appreciable difference. If there has been a significant improvement, it would make calcium deficiency a less likely catalyst. And good numbers would eliminate it altogether.

As for his stripped down diet, I'd suggest adding only one food to the mix with each 1.5-2 week period. Takes more time, but the point here is to be as thorough as possible so as not to have to go through this process again. Know what I mean? And leave the legumes out until the very end of the process, as protein sensitivity is almost as likely a suspect at this point as calcium deficiency.

You're doing an amazing job, Katie. We're behind you all the way in this.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks Stephen. I desperately need help with his diet. I'll write it out at the end.

So I took Jasper back to the vet today. He saw a new one as the other wasn't in. I asked her for blood work so we could compare to his previous results.

Anyway she called tonight (I missed the call) and said everything was good so antibiotics/anti-fungal wasn't necessary. But that's all she said. I called back but they're closed so I sent an email saying I need more than that, I need ALL the results. Something tells me she might have done the wrong blood test!!!!!!!! I hope I'm wrong. I am going to lose it I swear!

On top of that she forgot to give me a renewal of his Celebrex, instructions to ween him off Gabapentin when it's time....I had asked before they took him for blood work. Of course I forgot 50 min later when they brought him back out and I was already halfway home when I realized. I called back and they said it would take a bit of time to prepare it, so when I've already had my rental car for 2 hours and spending 41 cents a minute I just drove the rest of the way home. I'll have help getting them tomorrow with someone else thankfully. But man. Bad day. (On top of bad news I got for myself today for something else! Ugh)

Anyway Jasper is wing flipping like crazy tonight. I don't know what's going on. I also noticed since all of this started ~1 month ago he never preens (wrong word?) himself after showers anymore. He's sitting there shivering so I took the hair dryer (on low) to him for a few min. Why the heck isn't he trying to dry himself anymore??

I'm so frustrated. I cut corn, pasta, all beans....added in 2 kinds of sprouts until I can grow my own...no pellets......I'm beyond frustrated.

Sorry to vent. I hate wing flipping. This is all exhausting. I can only imagine how Jasper is feeling.

Speaking of the poor bird is a gigantic pin cushion. I've never seen a molt like this before with him. He literally has probably 50 feathers growing in right now or more.

 

[katie_fleming]

I was so tired last night I forgot to put the food info at the end lol.

So update. The vet did the wrong blood test as I suspected. I am beyond annoyed at this point. I have been very patient with their mistakes before but this time I sent in an email telling them how unhappy I was. I have to bring Jasper back today and have them take MORE blood b/c of course they threw it out yesterday. More time, more pain/stress for Jasper. I told them I'd only pay the difference of the two tests. Unbelievable....I really wish there was another place closer to me. I would switch clinics in a heartbeat.

Anyway sorry for the rant. Here's Jasper's "new" list of breakfast foods (not all are new to him, only a few things) that were suggested to me. So I pick a bunch from this list right now:

Bell pepper / hot peppers
Sweet potato
Green apple
Corn (not giving any right now)
Cucumber
Zucchini
Celery
Carrots
Yellow/green beans (he hasn't had any in his breakfast in a week, just his dinners)
Kale
Dandelion leaf (not in season, can't get)
Squash
Pumpkin
Yam (haven't given any yet)
Bok choy (in his dinner atm, don't think he's eaten any yet)
Micro greens (throw them all out right now)
Black or red cherries (haven't done any yet)
Organic herbs (I've given him some organic parsley)

I just got my sprouting kit and seeds, so I have started to sprout 2 of them. I have 5 options in total, so I think it would be fine to rotate through 2 a week right now? (First let's see if I can grow these suckers lol. As soon as the white tip is just a few mm it's good to feed right?)

As far as his dinners go this is where I'm having the most stress. I have 3 different types made up frozen for him, so I've been picking out a bunch of ingredients that were suggested here/others. Basically here's what he has left over after I've picked out everything that was suggested:

Brown rice (it was suggested to remove but it's basically impossible to pick out)
Sweet potato
Banana
Broccoli
Squash
Bell pepper
Zucchini
Turnip
Carrots
Apple
Celery
Green beans
Pear
Radish
Asparagus (impossible for me to pick out since it's ground up)

So I'm basically just overwhelmed right now with his food. Does his breakfast list seem reasonable? (BTW minor wing flipping again today. Can stress cause it to flare up? Was trying to figure out what triggered it last night).

I have no clue what else to eliminate/add. Any help with these lists would be appreciated.

 

[davefv92c]

was reading on a site today never any celery, the stringy part can cause impacted crop.
everything else is same i use with max. today i tried a few new things i have yet to and he stayed on that chop bowl for a good hour went to look at him and he was just silly as could be he had the stuff all over himself, same with Sammy and he don't pay much mind to the chop.

todays
califlower
brock
golden beats
kale
carrots
yellow squash
thats the chop i put some of the seeds from a cantalope
and a couple of chunks of the cantalope.
worked out good they all loved it.
golden beats and kale where the newest items.
hard to read all your posts here we all know Jasper means a lot to you.
there is no good side as to what is going on other then your situation is
giving us a lot of education on the birds and i do thank you for that.
will say a little prayer for Jasper.

 

[Anansi]

Hey, Katie.

Your list of foods is excellent. Great variety. (Though I agree with Dave about the celery. Now that he mentions it, I do remember reading something similar. Not so much the impaction as a general difficulty with digestion.) And in any other circumstance, I'd definitely cosign on it.

But not for the purposes of narrowing down what's causing Jasper's toe-tapping and wing-flipping. I think Eitak and Chris' suggested strategy of temporarily cutting Jasper's diet down to a few basic foods and building from there was a brilliant one.

This means you shouldn't be adding anything completely new to the mix for the next 2-3 weeks. Not even sprouts. (Though I'm a big fan of sprouts for birds.) Because right now, the focus is not on the healthiest and most nutritious meal for him. No, for the next 2 or 3 weeks, the focus is on either identifying the food(s) causing the issues, or eliminating diet altogether as the source of the problems.

The only way to do this is to approach the problem scientifically. And the most efficient way to go about it is to streamline his diet so you're starting nearly from scratch.

So first thing is to work off a reasonably safe base of maybe 3 foods. This means the same 3 foods served at breakfast and dinner. Give between a few days and the better part of a week to see if his toe-tapping and wing-flipping stops. If they don't, switch out one of the foods for another you deem likely safe (so beans, peas, corn and blueberries would not make the list) and try again.

But if the symptoms DO stop, then leave the safe base trio in place and begin adding foods one at a time. Give each added food a few days with the original 3 to test for resumed symptoms. If the symptoms recur, you likely have the culprit. (Though you'd hold back on this conclusion until you've removed the suspect AGAIN and observe the symptoms drop off as a result.)

And if the symptoms don't recur after a few days, add yet another food to the mix. It's potentially a long and tedious process, but it'll be worth it once you get there.

For the basic trio, I'd suggest a Vitamin A dense veggie (carrots), an all around solidly nutritious leafy green (dandelions preferably, or endives), and a nutritious fruit for flavor (pomegranates). And then you build off of that foundation. Brown rice I'd bring in for the second round. And so on and so forth until all of his foods have been vetted.

Only after you have either proven or disproved diet as the cause would you begin adding brand new foods to the mix. Right now, no matter how healthy and ultimately beneficial those foods, they'd only complicate things.

Btw, I am so sorry that they gave the wrong test and poor Jasper has to go in AGAIN. I hope they do the right thing and run the test free of charge this time.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Katie..

Vent,scream,cuss,yell,bang your fists on the table..do what you need..that's why we're here!




Jim

 

[katie_fleming]

Thank you all again for the replies! And sorry for the delay, I'm home with Jasper for Thanksgiving weekend

Well he certainly was mega stressed after yesterday's vet visit for blood work #2 and then a 3 hour car ride to Ottawa. He's doing better today, has a good appetite. I will have the results of his blood work sometime next week.

He's unfortunately still picking at his feet a bit. More the front/back of his ankles than toes He is still on Gabapentin and the Celebrex she only gave me 14 more days of.

Thank you for the suggestions with Jasper's diet. This sounds like quite the undertaking. I have a couple questions:

1. What if he doesn't want to eat the 3 foods I pick? He's already a picky eater and I'm a bit worried he won't eat enough, especially if he gets the same for breakfast/dinner? Perhaps I could heat one of them at dinner (carrots) for a "change"

2. Before I start this, is there any chance it could be the seed mix he gets each night? (His "snacky time" aka best part of the day) He's had the same one for years though and he went ~1.5+ years without a single incident of wf/tt so I'm not totally convinced it would be this?

3. I'm slightly tempted to wait for his results before starting the elimination diet. What are your thoughts?

4. It will be hard to test some foods because some need to be cooked (ie: rice). His breakfast is always raw b/c I'm gone to work all day. I guess when I get to a food that has to be cooked it would just served at dinner to test

I need to get to a grocery store tomorrow b/c everything is closed for Thanksgiving Monday and I don't have any food at home for him eek lol

Thanks again

 

[Anansi]

Katie, how many mg's of Gabapentin is he on? And is that twice a day?

1) What you want to do in this instance is try to stack the deck in your favor. The fruit is especially good for this. The reason I listed pomegranates is because, aside from being an especially nutritious fruit, it is known as a favorite for most birds. Then when you look at carrots, if Jasper isn't a big fan you could switch that out for say sweet potato. But basically try to start with three foods you are fairly certain he'll go for... leaving out the higher risk prospects such as legumes, corn and even blueberries. (I hate putting blueberries on that list, but some ekkies here and there do prove sensitive when there are too many blueberries in their diet.)

End of the day, though, if he's not eating you would just have to abort the experiment and approach it differently. Perhaps something more subtle.

2) I'm not inclined to believe it could be the seed mix, especially since it's a daily part of his diet. But that said, the whole point here is to scrutinize everything. So perhaps the best first step is to remove the seeds and the pellets from his diet right away. Maybe you'll get lucky and find the culprit in one of those two from the outset.

3) I'd personally start right away, but I don't think waiting a few days would be a big problem.

4)That approach sounds solid to me.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Katie...I think i'd wait for the results before trying anything different...just my opinion on that.
As far as heating things up,I know Amy prefers things "warm" Even some fruit has to be room temp or she'll either avoid it,or throw it at me
Dang,this is so frustrating! I wish I had definitive answers for you.



Jim

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks guys.

Stephen, he's on 0.07cc twice a day of Gabapentin.

More bad news this morning. Jasper is wf like yesterday AND tt It would have been 2 weeks tomorrow since his last toe tapping. I just don't get it. The only "new" stuff are sprouts he had two days in a row, or more pomegranate than usual. I also haven't given egg shells in a few days. That's all I can think of right now...I guess it shouldn't surprise me since they kind of go hand-in-hand.

I go back to Montreal late tonight. I hope his poor foot will be ok to hold on the whole way back

As far as heating things up,I know Amy prefers things "warm" Even some fruit has to be room temp or she'll either avoid it,or throw it at me

LOL yep! Sounds about right Jasper will pick out one piece at a time and with attitude promptly gets rid of it lol

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Thanks guys.

Stephen, he's on 0.07cc twice a day of Gabapentin.

More bad news this morning. Jasper is wf like yesterday AND tt It would have been 2 weeks tomorrow since his last toe tapping. I just don't get it. The only "new" stuff are sprouts he had two days in a row, or more pomegranate than usual. I also haven't given egg shells in a few days. That's all I can think of right now...I guess it shouldn't surprise me since they kind of go hand-in-hand.

I go back to Montreal late tonight. I hope his poor foot will be ok to hold on the whole way back

Geeez that poor boy! It must be driving him nuts too

Good Luck Jasper and Katie tonight!


Jim

 

[katie_fleming]

I'm wondering if the culprit is in Jasper's dinner(s)....

I got home from work and Jasper only had minor wing flipping. I fed him dinner, went out for an hour and a half, and when I got home he's now wing flipping even worse and toe tapping.

I've noticed it seems to be worse in the evenings.

Still waiting on his blood test results.

He's picked his feet badly again

I'm going to have to start the elimination now. The only things in his dinner that were different than breakfast was turnip and kale.

 

[katie_fleming]

2 hours has passed since I got home. I don't see anymore toe tapping, just wing flipping. No feet picking. I don't understand........

Tomorrow after work I will pick up a few things that match his breakfast and start there for his dinners.

Also can't remember if I ever posted but Jasper is going through one heck of a molt right now. He's got new feathers coming in all over the place right now. He's also lost weight...I haven't weighed him yet but I can feel he's lighter on my hand.

 

[Anansi]

You definitely want to weigh him right away, Katie. Watching his weight and droppings are critical right now. I also think starting the elimination diet right away is the best course of action. When you're dealing with foot gnawing, you want to find the cause as soon as possible. Sores on the feet can get infected and lead to secondary complications.

If you're worried about going with the basic diet and building from there, going with removing the dinner foods from his diet is a good start as far as alternatives go.

I know seeing Jasper go through this is REALLY tough, Katie. Heart-breaking, actually. But stay strong, my friend. You are doing an amazing job trying to find the answer.

 

[Keatz]

Hi, Katie,
Here's a link to an Australian eclectus site that might interest you, if you haven't seen it already: About Eclectus Parrots - Information and Advice From a Respected Parrot Specialist
The woman who runs the site breeds and sells eclectus and has written a book on them. She's given me terrific advice about Oscar in the past.
She also moderated an eclectus forum. I recall her saying on it once that it is not uncommon for eclectus to loose weight while molting. The little bit of information about molting on the site I provided you with a link to describes how molting affects eclectus' mood and appetite. I wonder whether Jasper's weight loss can be linked to his molt?
This might be a long shot, but have you considered fungal toxins as a possible cause of toe tapping? I only mention it because once when Oscar had a major toe tapping and wing flipping episode, the vet I consulted believed that he may have developed it from eating food containing fungal toxins. He said that wing flipping was his body's way of trying to shake the toxins out of his system.
Anyway, I really hope that Jasper's doing okay.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks Stephen. I will weigh him tonight when I get back from work. I will discontinue his frozen dinners for now and will follow your advice with only a few things. I will at least microwave what I can so it's a bit "different" for him.

BTW I feel like such a noob asking this, but if pomegranate will be considered part of his dinners now, can I give more than 1 tablespoon? That's all I ever gave before, it was more just adding a bit of fruit on top of the rest of his food. Can I give more? If we're starting with say, carrots, pomegranate, sprouts, and some green I can find?

Keatz - Thank you for the link I will read through the site! If it was a fungal issue the anti-fungal he was on for 3 weeks would have cleared it up. And his (incorrect) blood test was clear, same with the crop wash/fecal test.

He is going through a VERY bad molt so it was making me wonder about protein. I've cut all beans right now but he really likes these new sprouts so I will keep them up.

Still awaiting his test results. I hope they hurry up.....

I'll throw in some hard boiled egg tonight as well. Will try to keep the ingredients as small as possible and start a diary again.

 

[katie_fleming]

Ok so I have some results from Jasper's blood test. I will only write the ones that are listed as low or high. The rest are normal.

For the record when I talked with the receptionist she told me the vet saw nothing major and only asked about what he's fed. I told her I went through the entire list with his other vet already.

Protein 29 - LOW. It had been 30. (Avg is 32-42)
Calcium 1.80 - LOW. It had been 1.83 (Avg is 2.02-2.98)
Bile acids 12 - LOW. It had been 13 (Avg is 30-11)

AST 381 - HIGH. No prev number until I compare at home (Avg is 144-339)
CK 4574 - HIGH. No prev # right now (Avg is 135-410 -- um, did someone make a typo?!!)

I am not surprised with these results. While there are no drastic changes since April the Protein/Calcium are still on a decline.

Given that we're trying to find potential culprits in his diet, and knowing he's too low on these, what foods do you recommend? The sprouts I just started several days ago should have protein correct? And will start giving him some more hard boiled eggs/shells.