Urgent - Picking at feet

[katie_fleming]

He's also on Celebrex once a day. Thank you for the info

 

[Anansi]

Well, no big red flags or anything, but I'll tell you what little ones there are.

Corn. There seems to be a lot of corn in his diet. While this doesn't affect every eclectus, it has been known to cause complications for some.

Asparagus. I don't have any hard data on this one, and I can't remember where I'd seen it, but there was some controversy about whether or not asparagus was a good food for parrots. Something about its cellular walls or something? I can't recall. But point is, there were enough raised doubts that I decided better safe than sorry. So I removed it from my ekkies' diets and do not suggest it for the diets of others' birds anymore. Just in case.

Brussels Sprouts. I eliminated these from my ekkies' diets for the same reason I don't allow spinach: I learned that they share the properties of spinach that tend to block the body's ability to absorb calcium. This may be of particular significance to you, given Jasper's history of calcium deficiency.

I assume all of the beans and peas are being properly soaked and simmered before serving, but I mention it here anyway just to cover every base.

Oh, and I would definitely include more leafy greens. Dandelion and endive, for instance.

But for the most part, your list is rather solid.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks for looking it over, appreciate it.

Corn: He actually has it in all 3 dinners as I suspected. I forget which ingredient I couldn't get so I ended up adding to all 3. I will pick it out from 2 dinners for the time being?

Asparagus: Good to know. Will remove as well

Brussels sprouts: I hadn't given any in ages but the other week (I forget when) I did. Will remove from my list for the future

Yes, all beans are soaked overnight, rinsed, and simmered for at least 90 min or longer. Plus they're re-heated since I warm his dinners.

I'll try and find some other greens...I gave him a bit of cilantro everyday last week.

Few things I just thought of.....on Saturday I gave him half a thing of spray millet. He gets this extremely rarely b/c I always forget I have it. Yesterday he had birdie bread. (For this bday he had double the amount and no probs after.....) I think that's all that was "new". Oh, I gave him some hard boiled egg yesterday with the shell and another bit at dinner tonight. I need to get better with the egg shells for sure.

He didn't have any grapes all last week but he had 3 a day since Saturday, including today.

 

[katie_fleming]

I recently joined a private Eclectus group on Facebook and posted about Jasper's troubles. Someone made an interesting comment:

Eclectus parrots have a slightly larger proventiculous than other parrots. This is often misidentified by good veterinarians who may not see a lot of eclectus in their practice as possible PDD.

There are also a few others who had the same issues and turns out it was diet related. Will continue reading everything I can, and get that second opinion asap.

And a small update. Jasper had a bad day on Monday. The wing flipping/toe tapping returned and also more picking at his feet Yesterday he was good again. Today (I'm still at work) he looks fine (on camera).

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Katie...I've been quietly following Jaspers troubles. I'm sorry I can't/don't have any advice,since I've never had the privilage of knowing an Ekkie.

I love the idea of spying...errr...keeping an eye on him with a camera.
Amy and BB and I are praying a positive solution comes quickly for both of you.



Jim

 

[Anansi]

You know, Katie, I took another look at Jasper's meals list and something suddenly hit me. His intake of beans and peas is really high. He literally has beans/peas with every iteration of his meals, breakfast or dinner. Sometimes more than one type.

Thing is, legumes have high protein content. And some ekkies have proven more sensitive to higher levels of protein than others. My suggestion, just in case this problem is actually diet-related rather than PDD related, is to cut legumes out of his diet completely.

Not permanently, of course. Just as a temporary measure until we are able to come to a conclusion one way or the other. If it turns out to be a protein sensitivity, you can simply lower his levels to more moderate amounts going forward.

Don't know why it didn't hit me before, but better late than never, eh?

 

[katie_fleming]

@AmyMyBlueFront - Thank you so much. I really appreciate your message. I've actually used a skype call daily since I got Jasper hehe I like being able to check on him while I'm at work to make sure he's ok. Once he got his toe caught in his spray millet holder and I saw it and rushed home right away. The vet told me if it had been on the entire day it's possible he could have lost his toe. Peace of mind this way!

@Anansi - Thank you! Someone else pointed this out to me as well yesterday. Like I said to my vet I just want as many brains on this as possible to try and help him. It's sounding more and more diet related now that I've been sharing it all over the place. Other Ekkie owners have said they had the same thing happen and it was always something related to their diet. It looks like I'm going to have to do an overhaul of some sort but I'm a bit overwhelmed and don't know where to start.

1. No corn other than in 1 of his 3 dinners, and none in his breakfast
2. No more asparagus, Brussels sprouts
3. Navy beans, pinto beans, red beans -- in 2 of 3 dinners. Should I pick them out entirely from one of the dinners for now?
4. Yellow/green split peas will be impossible to pick out from his current batch of dinners I'm afraid. I still have ~1.5 months of dinners left in the freezer
5. Chick peas just in one dinner, ok for now?

I really don't want to throw out 1.5 months worth of food I already have for him if I can just pick some stuff out for now, just need a bit of guidance.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Problem with cutting back is you don't know how far to cut back, and you don't know which thing you cut back actually made a difference. Leave the freezer dinners for now, don't throw them out...but can you prepare just a few day's worth of meals with no corn, no legumes (chickpeas, beans, lentils), brussels sprouts, asparagus... it would just be for a short time, so he won't have any lasting nutritional deficit. If the symptoms change significantly, you will know it was probably diet related, and once the tremors and other symptoms decrease you can begin adding foods back, one at a time. Maybe start with adding in the lentils, since those are hard to pick out of the food, and if they are OK you can feed him the freezer food.

 

[Anansi]

Problem with cutting back is you don't know how far to cut back, and you don't know which thing you cut back actually made a difference. Leave the freezer dinners for now, don't throw them out...but can you prepare just a few day's worth of meals with no corn, no legumes (chickpeas, beans, lentils), brussels sprouts, asparagus... it would just be for a short time, so he won't have any lasting nutritional deficit. If the symptoms change significantly, you will know it was probably diet related, and once the tremors and other symptoms decrease you can begin adding foods back, one at a time. Maybe start with adding in the lentils, since those are hard to pick out of the food, and if they are OK you can feed him the freezer food.

I was about to reply in detail, but seeing as how Karen was obviously READING MY MIND, I'll just say ditto.

Remember, you're not taking permanent steps right now. Experiments over the next week or three.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[katie_fleming]

Thank you! Appreciate that.

I've been talking with a few people on the Ekkie FB group and they've been helping me with his diet. I am going to try and start sprouting (eek) and we're re-vamping a bit of his foods.

So with Stephen's suggestions about removing some things and theirs, hopefully Jasper will be getting a better diet.

I still feel awful. If this is all diet related then it's my fault. With all the reading I've done I really thought he was getting a great variety. And especially when vets are telling you that it's "perfect" you assume it's all good. Ekkies are so unique in their requirements.

*Big sigh*

 

[tashawithanekkie]

Sprouting isn't as complicated as it seems! I was overwhelmed when I started trying to figure it out, too. Soak seeds overnight, then give them a rinse maybe twice a day. I use an old mason jar and a square of plastic screen and keep it upside down in my dish drainer.

I hope you find the answer soon!

 

[coopedup]

i sincerely hope it's diet related! that would be the best possible solution and easy to fix! i make a basic chop of kale, red pepper, sweet potato (cooked), chayote squash (cooked) jalapeno pepper. I may put a few other things in--squash/pumpkin family, but that's the generic base. I chop it all up and freeze as ice cubes. I then make a quinoa/pasta mix and do the same. I can serve this all the time and add spices to change the flavor each meal. I use cayenne, chili, 0r red pepper flakes, chinese 5 spice powder, red palm or coconut oil. These give me the ability make it less boring and change the flavor on any given day. I can also augment with other veggies that I may have around like peas, cucumber, etc. I can add chopped apple....you get the idea. Keep your base chop simple since you're making a lot of it. Ive found that proportion is also key. He likes his chop a lot more this time since I have less kale and more other stuff (proportionally) than i've done before. Good luck to you!

 

[Eitak579]

Hey Katie,
I've been going through some similar issues with Johnny lately. I posted about two months ago and was pretty overwhelmed with he prospect of weeding through all of the different foods to try to determine if the toe tapping/ flapping/ under wing picking was diet related.

Long story short, I cut everything out of his diet, visited a CAV and have been working towards a solution. I began feeding a very bland diet of peppers, kale and zucchini rolled in cooked and blended eggshells (in case calcium was low), all from the garden and slowly introduced "new" foods. His condition seemed to improve although he's still picking under his wings, mostly down. I felt bad he wasn't getting any sprouts, I sprout a lot, so about two weeks ago I made a mung bean/lentil sprout and served it up. Within two days he was wing flipping and picking like he had an insatiable itch.

I immediately stopped giving those, I don't know which one or if both are a bother, but he's been much better though he's still picking under his wings. I'm hoping it hasn't become a habit, I'm not sure if I've solved everything as far as diet goes. I'm planning another trip to our main CAV (we visited a stand in as the usual vet we visit was out of town) to ask for a blood panel and see what her thoughts are on the continued feather picking.

I didn't think I'd have anything to add except empathy as I followed your posts, but when I saw Stephen's note on the lentils I thought I'd weigh in. I still feel like he's not 100% and we have some continued work to do, but it's much better and hopefully we can work with the CAV on it. Good luck and our thoughts are with you both.

 

[chris-md]

Hi Katie

I think a previous poster has the right idea. Even now you’re feeding him a huge variety. Which is great but you’re so desperate right now you have him on medications.

I think the smartest thing you can do right now is scale him back to some brown rice and some peas and broccoli. Feed this to him for 2 to 3 days and see if the toetapping stops. If it does introduce one more food item. Feed this for another few days and watch for a tow tapping. If none add another ingredient.

I really think you need to reconstitute his diet from scratch. I would be treating this as if you have a situation where a dog is not eating much. It’s far more important to get calories into him right now then it is to worry about whole nutrition at this time. Once you have the diet stabilized you can build on it. But it’s practically guarantee that, if this is Dave elated, scaling his food back to those three ingredients would be a safe bet and all sent him she disappear

 

[Keatz]

I can also empathise with you, because for about the first year that I had Oscar, he experienced extreme toe tapping episodes where his legs would spring up and down and hit his perch. Each episode lasted about four or five nights, during which time, I doubt he slept. Sometimes, I felt distressed for him and would stay up most of the night to comfort him.
Eventually, a vet suggested I stop feeding him dry bird seed. I cut it out and the extreme toe tapping episodes stopped. Occasionally, he has mild toe tapping episodes, but nothing as severe as he used to.
Unfortunately, I think there has been no definitive scientific research done into toe tapping, and as a syndrome it remains largely a mystery.
I do wonder whether, as some of the other members have suggested, cutting back Jasper's diet might help. It might not, but I did read that in the wild, eclectus have a nutritionally sparse diet. This might explain why they have such a long digestive tract.
In captivity, we tend to give them a wide variety of food, which is all healthy, but I wonder whether there is such a thing as too much of a good thing?
A vet who works for Dr Rob Marshall, one of Australia's leading bird vets who has written a book on eclectus, once gave me a list of food to feed Oscar. It was quite minimalist. Basically, he said to give him about three or four different types of vegetables in the mornings (he included carrot on the list) and two types of fruit, and in the evenings brown rice and beans.
I also give him some sprouts and during the day, I give him a couple of almonds and safe plants and milk thistle from the garden. Also, when he's going through a heavy molt, I give him some chicken meat, egg and corn. This doesn't appear to make him toe tap, but if it did, I would cut it back.
Finally, I read a study which examined the results of eclectus that were taken to vets because of toe tapping. I'm not sure how extensive the study was, but it said that in the majority of cases, the eclectus were suffering from either a natural vitamin A or calcium deficiency.
If you would like to increase Jasper's calcium, one way of doing it is by grating cuttle fish over his meals.
I really hope that Jasper is well now.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thank you all for your replies, I really appreciate them. As a quick update, Jasper has been doing much better. Last Monday was his last "bad" day. Since then the toe tapping is gone completely and the wing flipping is so minor/if not gone. His feet are healing again and the little sweetheart lifts his feet for me to apply the ointment now.

Greatly appreciate all the advice for his diet. I have scaled back big time and removed all the ones everyone thinks are causing problems. I've also been adding eggshells once a day to try to get some more calcium just in case that's a culprit. He also now gets Red Palm Oil once a week.

I should get my sprouter/seeds by the end of the week so I can begin sprouting but I did pick him up some alfalfa sprouts and micro greens over the weekend (organic).

If it's indeed diet related then at least I can hopefully re-work and "get it right". But the guilt I'm feeling is pretty awful right now. I really thought I was feeding him great meals.

I return to the vet this Thursday. I want to stop all medications completely. The gabapentin he will need to be weaned off to prevent seizures I was told, but at least if something flares up again I still have some on hand. I also am skeptical about keeping him on Celebrex at this point. Thoughts?

Thanks again to everyone for your support over these past several weeks. Can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

 

[coopedup]

So glad Jasper is doing better! Dont beat yourself up, it's clear you adore him and want only the best for him. If it is food related, you'd have had no idea what it was before it presented--so it's not your fault in any way. Like the rest of us you just kind of experiment until you find the right combination. Wranglers flips and taps were short lived ONLY because I had the input from this forum as a guide. If I hadnt had this resource who knows how long he'd have gone on---it's entirely likely I may have thought it was normal bird behaviour!

Kind of a one off comment here, but Gabapentin is a human med too...you may be able to get it at Costco or some other local pharmacy and not pay vet prices for it. Costco has a discount pet RX program.

 

[katie_fleming]

Thanks for saying that. And really good to know about Gabapentin, thank you!

 

[Keatz]

I'm so glad to hear that Jasper is better.
You have absolutely nothing to feel guilty about. It's clear that you're doing the best you can for Jasper.
There is a plethora of information about what to feed ecelctus, and it can be overwhelming and confusing.
Good luck with sprouting. I have a sprouting jar. It's easy and fun.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Hi Katie..

Also happy to hear Jasper is improving..I'm still trying to get BB to eat better and it is a slow progress indeed and it is frustrating to say the least.

sounds like you have it nailed down,now just have to refine his diet to HIS liking lol.
Good luck Thursday Jasper, We'll have you in our thoughts.



Jim