This is so stressful..

[Owlet]

I'm trying to get myself a puppy that I can train as a service dog. Finding an ethical breeder for a pet is super hard. Trying to find a breeder for service prospect is next level in possible. The breeder I was hoping to go with ended up deciding not the breed this year. She pointed me towards another breeder which looked good on the surface, but the more you dug the worse things got.

I made a post on the reddit page for this breed and only got one message advising me to look at another breeder. I looked into them and I was a little put off from the start. They really promoted themselves a lot and heavily bragged about their training skills. I was hesitant but I contacted them and it was just more red flags. I asked on a forum for this breed about this breeder and was given more red flags for them.

I was also given a lot of reading material and links to help me find a breeder. I sent out ~20 emails to breeders that were referred by the breeds club. I stated I was looking for a prospect puppy and I got several emails back asking what my gender and color preferences were... which typically breeders worth their salt arent gonna ask this when the intentions is a prospect puppy because color and gender are irrelevant and it entirely comes down on temperament. So that makes me hesitant to proceed with them. I feel like I'm just hitting a wall.

I was given some more leads to follow, but I'm just so stressed and frustrated. I feel like I've contact every breeder of this breed in the US and have made very little progress.

 

[ravvlet]

Would you be open to mixed breed dogs? The shelter I used to volunteer for would send dogs to advocacy groups that they felt were well suited to service dog training, I think a few even made it through training and became service dogs. I remember ball drive and a couple of other factors being things we’d look for, but that was over a decade ago now - I wish I remembered who it was doing the training. You are right that it takes a certain temperament to fare well as a service animal; it might be easier to find one if you open to other breed options.

This is not in any way a dig against you wanting to use a specific breed by the way, it just sounds like you’re at a dead end. Apologies if this is unwelcome advice!

 

[Owlet]

Would you be open to mixed breed dogs? The shelter I used to volunteer for would send dogs to advocacy groups that they felt were well suited to service dog training, I think a few even made it through training and became service dogs. I remember ball drive and a couple of other factors being things we’d look for, but that was over a decade ago now - I wish I remembered who it was doing the training. You are right that it takes a certain temperament to fare well as a service animal; it might be easier to find one if you open to other breed options.

This is not in any way a dig against you wanting to use a specific breed by the way, it just sounds like you’re at a dead end. Apologies if this is unwelcome advice!

Unfortunately no, I don't like the uncertainty that comes with a rescue. If it were a pet, that would be perfectly fine. But when it's a service animal that you are depending on, it would really suck if unexpected things popped up and you had to retire them early. I know it's still possible with pure bred pups, but at least if you get from an ethical breeder, there has been a lot of health testing done to ensure nothing genetic will pop up at the very least.

I had to retire my past service dog at a very early age. She is 5 years and retiring. She was fantastic for several years, but something happened last year and she just kind of shut down. I've been working on rebuilding her confidence and she is doing great, but I want to try and avoid this kind of situation again. When we got her, me and my family had no idea what we were doing and kind of just jumped on the first puppy we saw. I've learned a lot since then I want to try to do my best to get the best possible results.

I'm not entirely opposed to different breeds, I love working with all sorts of dogs, but I really think the breed I have picked out is what would fit me best. I appreciate the advise, but I think this is something I need to remain firm on. I don't want to just jump on the first puppy I find again. I've been talking with a lot of people, doing a lot of reading, and doing a ton of thinking and I think I have a good set of guidelines I should follow to get the puppy that would be best for me.

It's not a particularly rare breed either. It's just a standard poodle. Pretty common. But with the doodle industry, it's really hard to find a breeder that does all the required testing and then some. It's hard to find someone who does all the puppy culture and ENS that would really make a great service dog. And when you do find those breeders, they are very very particular on where their puppies go, and I do not blame them.

 

[ravvlet]

Oh man, I fully agree on the issue the “doodle craze” has brought upon standard poodles. I was actually wondering if that was the breed you were considering; they’re fantastic dogs but finding an ethical poodle breeder right now seems like it would be hellish. I’m sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds really frustrating.

As for the person who asked your color and gender preference - I totally get being frustrated by being asked such an irrelevant question; I do bet however some people care about that even for cases like yours where it doesn’t ultimately matter/there are more important issues at hand. Does that person at least do the genetic testing you need? Maybe they open with the color/gender thing because they get asked a lot and they just want to get it over with - maybe I’m being too optimistic though.

Did you guys train your previous dog also or did you receive them from a training program?

 

[texsize]

My sister used to raise Golden retrieve.
I was never involved with it and she passed away 2008.
wish I could help.

 

[Owlet]

Oh man, I fully agree on the issue the “doodle craze” has brought upon standard poodles. I was actually wondering if that was the breed you were considering; they’re fantastic dogs but finding an ethical poodle breeder right now seems like it would be hellish. I’m sorry you are dealing with this. It sounds really frustrating.

As for the person who asked your color and gender preference - I totally get being frustrated by being asked such an irrelevant question; I do bet however some people care about that even for cases like yours where it doesn’t ultimately matter/there are more important issues at hand. Does that person at least do the genetic testing you need? Maybe they open with the color/gender thing because they get asked a lot and they just want to get it over with - maybe I’m being too optimistic though.

Did you guys train your previous dog also or did you receive them from a training program?

I worked with a professional to train my previous dog, but it was mostly me training her with the professional's guidance. This time around I have a certification in training with KPA and just in general a loooot more information about training. I also bought a couple books to read up on to help with the process.
I think the breeders that are asking me about gender/color do do the health testing because I got their contact info from a website that only refers breeders that follow the CHIC standards of health testing.

 

[ravvlet]

I hope you catch a break soon, or that the breeder you really liked contacts you with a change of plans.

 

[Owlet]

I hope you catch a break soon, or that the breeder you really liked contacts you with a change of plans.

Someone just emailed back saying they have a litter planned in a month... both parents "health tested" and akc champions... now to pester them for more information...

 

[ravvlet]

Ha! The power of complaining on the forums! I hope you find a good candidate!

 

[Owlet]

I think I finally found a breeder... now I just hope they approve my application! only downside is they're on Ohio so I will need to fly

 

[ifnlovebirds]

Do you know birdTails on tik tok? She runs a bird sanctuary and freeflight trains birds. From my POV she is very ethical when it comes to animals and training (permission based) & she has also been doing it for a long time.

She got a Standard poodle from a reputable breeder as a prospect as well. Maybe you could try looking there, the dog she got from them seems like he has good genetics. has great drive and focus (as you can see in the video & chills with her birds as well which is prob also a opinion you have to consider).
click for link -> link to one of her videos talking ab her breeder & dog

I also suggest looking into MariesShepherds if you are going to be self training you puppy (you prob heard of her but shes AMAZING, agree w 100% of her training logic. MarieTrainsDogs on tiktok)

 

[Bluberrytheparakeet]

IDK if she is even contactable, but this is a doodle breeder. https://www.youtube.com/@baileywilliams_

she films most of her care so pretty candid. Seems ethical

 

[Owlet]

unfortunately majority of doodle breeders are inherently unethical.

 

[Owlet]

I did it. I found a puppy. I'm picking her up March 1st. It's happening sooner than I thought but I am so happy to have finally found a breeder and puppy I like. And just in time for my birthday!

 

[ravvlet]

That’s fantastic news! Congratulations and happy early birthday!

 

[SailBoat]

Interesting approach to obtaining a Service Dog as part of a DIY project. I understand that you have abilities, but I was under the impression that Service Dog Organizations had very specific guidelines to assure the dog meets the special requirements of the individual needing the dog.

Sorry that your current dog had a traumatic experience last year, but happy to hear that you're on the road to recovery. Did you every determined what had happened?

 

[Owlet]

Interesting approach to obtaining a Service Dog as part of a DIY project. I understand that you have abilities, but I was under the impression that Service Dog Organizations had very specific guidelines to assure the dog meets the special requirements of the individual needing the dog.

Sorry that your current dog had a traumatic experience last year, but happy to hear that you're on the road to recovery. Did you every determined what had happened?

She didnt have a traumatic experience as far as I'm aware. I think she just got older and her personality changed a bit I think.

And it's not uncommon in the US to handler train service dogs. I dont recommend it especially if you have no insight on dog training (with my first dog I worked with a professional to train her, so I had her guidance and wasnt completely on my own)
Seeing eye dogs are probably the most referenced service dogs and they definitely need to be trained by an organization due to the nature of the disability they would be working with. So it's a pretty common misconception that it has to be done by an organization. Honestly the laws around service dogs are extremely lax. At least in the US. People obviously abuse this greatly but it's written the way it is so those with disabilities can actually get the tools they need to mitigate it.

 

[ravvlet]

Yeah, the regulation of service dogs is nearly absolute zero. This means that people with knowledge and good intentions can work with trainers (or train themselves) a dog well tailored to their individual needs, but it also means folks can go online, buy dog apparel with “service dog” emblazoned on it and print out a BS piece of paper that essentially says “my dog and I will do what we want”.

Unfortunately I don’t know what the better solution would be. Instating regulatory bodies often makes goods or services prohibitively expensive or time consuming for the end user, and then the people buying bejeweled service dog gear for their reactive daschund so they can fly with them in their lap in first class end up being the only people who can afford it, heh.

 

[Owlet]

Yeah, the regulation of service dogs is nearly absolute zero. This means that people with knowledge and good intentions can work with trainers (or train themselves) a dog well tailored to their individual needs, but it also means folks can go online, buy dog apparel with “service dog” emblazoned on it and print out a BS piece of paper that essentially says “my dog and I will do what we want”.

Unfortunately I don’t know what the better solution would be. Instating regulatory bodies often makes goods or services prohibitively expensive or time consuming for the end user, and then the people buying bejeweled service dog gear for their reactive daschund so they can fly with them in their lap in first class end up being the only people who can afford it, heh.

There just needs to be more education about the ADA laws taught to those providing goods and services in an establishment. People get away with faking a service animal because these businesses do not know any better.

For those who it might benefit:

If a person comes in with an animal they are trying to pass off as a service animal these are the steps you can take. (This is for anyone in the united states, I cannot speak for anywhere else)

1. What species is the animal? If it is anything but a dog or mini horse you are within your rights to ask them to leave and come back without the animal.

2. If the animal is misbehaving (excesive barking*, deficating indoors, messing with products**, lunging at other patrons, etc) you are within your right to ask them to leave and come back without the animal. Even if they are a legitimate service animal, animals have bad days too. If they are misbehaving the establishment is allowed to ask them to leave and come back.

*sometimes a dog may be trained to bark to alert their handler to something. This isnt barking at every passerby or just endlessly barking. it would usually just be one short bark to alert their handler.

**if they are a mobility aid they may be tasked with picking up things from the floor / bottom shelves for their handler. So if the animal is actually being asked, this doesnt apply.

3. By ADA law service animals are NOT required to wear a vest or have an identification card. Anywhere selling "legitimate service dog certificates" is a scam and holds no actual power. Most service animal teams will have a vest just for ease of access, however they are not required to. If an animal comes in without any clear identifiers you are within your rights to ask the handler 2 questions. These questions are "Is that a service dog?" and "What tasks are they trained to perform for you?" and that is it. Usually the first question is enough information for you and you can evaluate from there.

4. If you are a restaurant and a service animal comes in and another patron complains about the animal because of their allergies, you, as the restaurant, have to take responsibility to move the seats of the one with allergies and the one with the animal so they are apart from each other. HOWEVER you can not segregate either person from the rest of the patrons. I.e moving one or both into an inactive portion of the restaurant just to "get them away from people".

5. A legitimate service animal does NOT need to be on a leash or restraint device because in some cases a restraint device may get in the way of being able to perform their task. In these situations the animal should be trained to walk calmly with their handler. If this is not the case and the animal is zooming everywhere, you are within your rights to ask them to leave and come back without the animal.

6. You may have noticed I have repeated "You may ask them to leave and come back without the animal" multiple times. While you are within your right to ask them to leave, you MUST allow them back (without the animal).

7. All breeds of dogs can be service animals. Including the tiny shitzus and what not. There are some cases where small dogs need to be close to their owners face to smell changes if they are a diabetic or seizure alert dog. Usually this would mean the dog being in a harness up towards the handlers face. If the handler is putting their dog in a shopping cart in a store where this is not allowed, you are within your rights to ask them to remove the dog from the cart. This also applies to seating arrangements, the dog cannot be on furniture unless actively performing a task.


The general rule of thumb is, if the dog is behaving, then mind your own business. Unless the dog is a hazard to the environment (i.e restaurants not allowing animals because of reasonable health hazards) then it's better to just let them be. "fake spotting" does more harm than good, because every service dog is trained differently and taught to perform tasks differently. Just because a dog may be pulling on their lead, doesnt mean they arent a legitimate service dog. If you "fake spot" you will just throw yourself down an endless cycle of "oh that dog is a fake!! how dare they bring their dog in here!!" and stress yourself and hurt legitimate service dog teams.

 

[ravvlet]

That’s really great info. I made the daschund joke because I had a previous employer who did that so they could bring their dog wherever they wanted; any dog can indeed be trained!