Quaker still sneezing on Baytril

[NWQuakers]

Hi all,

Hoping for a little advice or shared experience.
My 21 yr old female quaker, Mark, started fluffing up and looking ill almost 3 weeks ago. We took her to the vet, who kept her 5 days in their incubator and gave injectable Baytril. My other quaker, Lucky, started showing light symptoms (sneezes, eye irritation) a couple days later and spent 3 days with Mark at the vet getting the same treatment.

Tests on Mark came back as some bacterial infection, but the vet said not enough 'grew' to tell exactly which one. He said not e. coli and not some other bad one I can't recall.

Both birds were very improved the following monday so the vet sent them home with no follow up meds. I put them under heat and kept them resting, but Mark started sneezing again. The monday after coming home from the vet, Mark went on oral Baytril, but is still sneezing clear fluid. Tomorrow night will be one week on this med, still under heat, with a humidifier going, steamy shower in the mornings with me.

I also tried flushing his little nares with saline yesterday after a sneezing bout. It seemed to help. She's otherwise eating, grooming, alert, but taking lots of naps and having little bouts of sneezing and ear itching.

I really can't afford to put Mark back in hospital, though I know that's what the vet will suggest. I worry that her age is an issue in fighting this off too.

Should 1 week of the oral Baytril have stopped the sneezing? Should I ask to try a different antibiotic?

Anyone else have a similar experience?

 

[MonicaMc]

May I ask, what tests were done?

 

[henpecked]

baytril is usually a 10 day course. I would suggest nebulizing the baytril for sinus infections. Something you could do at home. Most Vets give baytril for almost everything and only switch to something else when it doesn't work.

 

[NWQuakers]

The receipt just says "culture I.D. only" $68, and I can't remember any other details the vet said when my partner & I were in the office. I was so stressed out...

Doesn't look like a massive battery of tests though. I just know the sample had to get sent to a lab in Phoenix and took 5 days for results.

I'll have to call the vet in the morning to ask more.

Now Mark is barely sneezing, and mostly napping with a little grooming, eating, and one excited break for a millet treat.

I have a 150w ceramic heat element hanging above her side of the cage, keeping it around 80-85 at perch height, but Mark doesn't spend much time under it unless it's bed time. Could it be too warm? I have a 60w red reptile bulb I can swap to.

 

[NWQuakers]

baytril is usually a 10 day course. I would suggest nebulizing the baytril for sinus infections. Something you could do at home. Most Vets give baytril for almost everything and only switch to something else when it doesn't work.

I'll ask the vet tomorrow.

The respiratory symptoms seem better today. I wonder how much of a hit being so sick is just in general, with her being 21yrs old. She seemed to slow down a bit this year....poor birdie. I just want her to be well and comfortable. Not sick, and not stressed.

 

[MonicaMc]

If she hasn't had an blood tests/panels/CBC's performed within past year or so, I would suggest getting one done, since older birds bodies tend to break down and an infection could be a secondary sign of health problems... and quakers are notorious for obesity which could lead to liver failure...

If it is something like liver failure, then no matter how much you treat the infection, it wont do Mark any good since you aren't treating the source of the problem.


I don't know if that's actually the problem or not, just giving an example. Baytril is just a general all around antibiotic, so it might not be doing any good if it's not the right medication for the infection. That is, some infections respond differently to different antibiotics, and if Baytril isn't the specific one required, well, I'd be afraid that it could cause more harm than good.



I also have an older bird, and it seems that she responds well with milk thistle. Her last blood panel was mostly normal except she was low in albumins, and I suspect this was due to her laying eggs. She's not as old as your quaker, but she's still considered old for her species! She's a bourke parakeet, which have an expected lifespan of 11-15 years old. In August of 2011, she went in for surgery to try and remove a growth on her right foot. Amazingly, she survived, but I wasn't so sure those first couple of nights home after surgery. She's supposed to be 16 or 18 years old this year, and I've had her for 11 years this month. I don't know why, but whenever she's looking sick, she responds well to milk thistle. In fact, she once got pretty sick, and I used milk thistle to help her fight off her bacterial infection. Milk thistle is not an antibiotic, but it helps to support her liver, and one of the functions of the liver is to help detoxify the body, which includes producing immune factors and removing bacteria from the bloodstream.

She's certainly slowed down since her younger days, and she has lost weight (she used to weigh around 44 grams, but now weighs around 36 grams?), but she continues to eat well (pellets, seeds, sprouts, fresh/cooked foods) and still thriving! Even with the return of the tumor on her foot.



My best advice is to get a blood panel done to make sure her organs are still function at tip top shape, and, if possible, find a different antibiotic that will respond better to her infection... or even doing as henpecked suggested and using a nebulizer.




You mentioned that she seems to be doing better today. I hope she continues to improve!!!

 

[NWQuakers]

Thanks for the advice Monica!

I think the supportive care is helping. I'll try milk thistle too. The only kind I have on hand is the powdered extract that is in clear capsules. Could I mix some in wet food or should I get a liquid extract?

I've had various birds (finches, Moluccan Lory, Nanday, tiels, budgies & quakers) for the better part of 25 years. The only brush with illness I've had is when a rescue tiel had psittacosis and we all had to go on medication.

Having Mark be this sick so suddenly is really hard.

She had been a little chubby (135g) but is now a bit under 100g. I can see more of her keel than I ever have. Luckily her appetite is good and she's snarfing up all the invalid food I put in front of her. Her pal Lucky has always been on the scrawny/twitchy side too, so the extras won't hurt her any.

 

[MonicaMc]

I haven't used the powdered milk thistle, so I can't say. I have alcohol-free milk thistle in liquid form. The exact brand I have is in the link below, and I got it through my a-vet.

Nature's Answer - Milk Thistle Seed - 1oz


I can't say if the milk thistle will help your quaker or not, but I hope for continued improved health!

 

[NWQuakers]

Mark wasn't doing too well this morning and has gone back to the vets. She seemed to be eating and grooming and interacting with us, but still sneezing some and having breathing trouble after exertion.

The vet offered to keep her in their incubator under observation for a few more days at no cost for that. Not sure what tests and such he'll be running. My partner dropped her off and didn't get to talk with the doc directly.

He's not avian certified, but the big cockatoo rescue place down the road from us use him as their vet, so I assume he's not hopeless in his bird practice.

So now I just wait for word. I'm glad I took time to say a good goodbye when I left for work this morning....

 

[MeganMango]

Ask to have the culture done and the bacteria identified. You could be wasting your time with the wrong antibiotic.

 

[NWQuakers]

Mark may get to come home soon, but have to be in an incubator set up. I had her under heat, with food and water close by, but in her regular cage with her pal. I'll hear more from the vet tomorrow. Sounding less like an infection though and more like age-related issues. I think being sick tanked her system and she's having a tough time coming back from it.

I was watching some videos of Mark from just a couple years ago, and she's really slowed down a lot since. Less of her usual marching around making noise.

Poor Lucky is upset tonight, wondering where Mark is.

 

[NWQuakers]

It seems that Mark gets better while at the vet, and symptoms start to come back at home. Lucky still seems completely better. We've determined that heat is the problem. I've had Mark under a heat lamp, at about 80-85f, but not confined or restricted in any way. Just in the cage she shares with Lucky, and able to be in less heated areas of the cage.

So when Mark comes home she'll be in a smaller cage with 3 sides and the top wrapped and a 60w infrared bulb providing heat. No ifs ands or buts on my part. I also ordered a heated perch for when the vet says she can go back to her regular cage.

Hopefully this will do the trick. The vet did say that Mark will recover from this, barring anything really crazy. So I need to adapt to life with one old geezer and one spring chicken sharing the cage.

This whole trauma did help us decide that when Mark goes, instead of being a one-Quaker household, we'll look for another oldish qp that needs a home.

 

[Remy]

I hope they both make a full recovery.

I would definitely do a full blood panel, with a culture on the specific infection, to make sure you have the right antibiotic.

Also, especially with the older one, definitely find ways to boost the immune system. Milk thistle is supposed to be a good liver booster, like somebody else suggested. Just make sure you get the right dosage for your birds. It can be hard to determine, since they are so teeny. Some people have reported good results with adding GSE and/or apple cider vinegar to their regimen. Somebody else on here had good results with giving their parrot a chili pepper every day for sinus problems. You could also add cayenne pepper to their food.

Darcy was sneezing and having runny poop a few weeks ago. The vet didn't seem like much help, so I took him to MY holistic doctor (who also treats animals and has experience with birds), and it turned out Darcy had some cat germs and a bit of a yeast infection. She gave me some homeopathics to give him, and all the symptoms went away. Still the occasional sneeze (like I hear it 1-2x weekly), but I think there are also allergies involved. Just ordered some new parts for the air purifier.

Oh also, a good quality air purifier. I like Living Air/Alpine air. Expensive, but worth every penny in the long run.

 

[NWQuakers]

Instead of being able to bring Mark home today, were waiting for the vet to call with test/med options, since Mark is back to having breathing issues again. Well go for the ones recommended here if he hasn't run them already.

So hard to be stuck at work and waiting to have messages relayed, but then again I'm not sure I am clear headed enough to make a smart decision right now.

 

[MonicaMc]

Just in case you didn't see it in the other thread.....

We have wood heat, so if the fire dies down overnight the rest of the house gets to about 63. That doesn't sound too chilly, but it feels cold to me.
Between raising our own laying hens and now dealing with an immune-compromised elderly parrot, I feel much better having a variety of heaters to choose from.

I've been using a 150w ceramic 'bulb' in a metal brooder lamp fitting over Mark's side of the cage. It gets pretty warm, so I have one thermometer on top of the cage and one hung at perch level inside. They are both wireless transmitting sensors that I can read from the receiver on my desk.

With just one corner of the cage wrapped in a towel, it was maintaining about 80-85, going down to 75 overnight.

I also have 250w infrared bulbs that I use to brood baby chicks, and just bought a 60w infrared bulb to set up with Mark's hospital cage. I also ordered a heated perch for Mark.

There are different wattages of the ceramic bulbs though, and I plan to add some lower ones to my arsenal. We used to have a large ceramic panel heater that mounted on the wall near their cage, but we never used it and took it down. Sometimes we'll put the hot-oil radiator type heater near the cage on low setting, but I don't like doing that for too long unattended.

Mostly we keep the fire banked enough to maintain the house around 70, but we're lucky enough to have an older house that someone took the time to insulate well. And my partner & I work different shifts, so there is usually only a few hours with no one home. We try not to travel during cold times of year, just in case.

What kind of wood do you burn?

 

[NWQuakers]

Just in case you didn't see it in the other thread.....


What kind of wood do you burn?

It's usually a mix of fir, maple, alder, a little apple. We get it from the same guy every year, plus burn downed limbs from the fir trees in our yard. I know the wood guy sources from different places year to year, but the mix is consistent for the 8 or so years we've lived there.

 

[MonicaMc]

Bird; Birds: Safe, Toxic Trees, Woods. Safe Tree Wood. Parrots. Parrot cages.

I wondered in case some of the woods might be dangerous... and depending on the type, it could be safe or dangerous.

 

[NWQuakers]

No smoke from the woodstove gets into the house. We keep it sealed up tight so the draft goes right up the chimney. I'll ask the vet about it though. He did say none of his other bird clients with wood heat have any particular issues, but Mark's age could have something to do with it.

I think the species we use are safe, and any fruitwood we burn is from our own trees, so no chemical residue.

 

[NWQuakers]

So my partner talked to the vet this afternoon. It seems Mark is not doing great. The respiratory infection isn't manifesting really in any test results, but Mark is still mouth-breathing and puffed up even in the vet's incubator.

When we took her back in Monday morning, she was still sneezing a bit, and breathing hard after exertion. And even with the cage temp 80-85, still a bit puffed up. The vet thought she was doing better on Tuesday, but last night seemed to take a turn for the worse.

From what I understand, he thinks it more of a 'cardio-pulmonary' physical problem more than lingering respiratory infection. All of it exacerbated by Mark's age.

In any case, I haven't seen Mark since I said goodbye on my way to work Monday, so I'm taking tomorrow off to visit her and talk to the vet after another day of observation. I am afraid it may be time for me to decide if I bring Mark home for hospice care or have her put to sleep so she doesn't end her days gasping for air.

Guess I'll have more info tomorrow, but it's a really tough night right now.

 

[SandyBee]

Awww, pulling for you guys. Such a hard time and full of worry