Please Help! Out of options ..

[Aquila]

I just thought of one question, if it is a papilloma virus, where would he have gotten it from? Generally speaking they're transmitted though close bodily contact (in humans and in birds, I believe it's sexually transmitted) and possibly from parents to chicks. Have you contacted the breeder at all about your issues to see if any of the other birds from the clutch were sick? Or if you got him from a pet store, contacted them as well?

Papilloma is generally found in wild bird populations, and I know I suspected my Sydney of having it, but his growths don't match the description and he never came up with a positive test result. He's between 30 and 40 years old and was wild caught. Though in his case the growths are suspected to be calcified feather cysts, I didn't end up having any surgery done because of his age and my vet said as long as they don't change or grow he'd be fine.

 

[midsummermagic]

Thank you for your reply. I did discuss it with Dr. Nemetz. People always bring me stranded or injured birds and in the last year I've had a duck and several wild song birds in the same room as him, but Dr. Nemetz said it didn't likely come from them. I also had a dove for over 17 years. He said they can sometimes have it if they were brought here from another country. I got him when he was 8 years old from a man with terminal cancer so we don't know specifics. Again, we just suspect papilloma. I am getting X-rays done tomorrow and hopefully I get some answers I can do something about..

 

[Piasa]

How is Buddy doing? I saw this post last night but didn't have a chance to respond.

Work with what you know while you try to figure out what you don't. Keep him as strong as possible.

Feed him things to help with heart and liver health. Get him as much sunshine as you can. I have special diet for my conure who is ill. It is a cooked quinoa base with herbs, tea, and some supplemental seeds and veggies. I'm happy to share with you anything I've learned.

I have 2 birds with unknown illness, longer term. Just today I had thermal photos taken of both my birds. This is new tech and I had to travel to get to a (nonavian, nonexotic) clinic that had the machine. The photos show very vividly where inflammation and pain is occurring. I don't have results yet or talked to avian vet about them - but it has given me a lot of hope and new direction as the images zeroed in on where the problems are. This was under $100 for both birds so it's not one of the wallet-breaking tests. It does not stress the bird.

If you want, I can PM you info on how to find clinics that have the machine. It may take a lot of phone calls to find one who can work with you/parrots, but maybe it can help you.

My heart goes out to you. This is a nightmare to live through, knowing the one you love is in great pain and needs help, but not knowing what to do. I wish all the best for you and your sweet Buddy.

 

[wrench13]

Hi. First off, these are my thoughts and comments. Not professional opinion, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last nite either. There is enormous experience with parrots on here ( not me), but like any opinion or advice , you must weigh it with the balance of your own gut feelings and evidence. I feel very bad about Buddy and in the end we all would like to hear he is better and acting normal.

Weight. As you probably know now, parrots are good at hiding symptoms. Out in the wild, signs of weakness get you singled out from the flock. Hope you've been keeping an almost daily record of his weight, since you observed any symptoms . What is it now, what has been the general trend, any change up or down? At best you can relate this to the changes being made in treatments.

Again, opinion. Amazons live in South America, so their access to all sorts of crazy supplements from China or where ever, is limited. Advice to give him naturally occurring foods, in what ever form he can eat easily, seems good advice. At least as a base line.

As an aside, I would not give Chinese made anything to my parrot. When the market there has weekly food scandals about BABY FOOD AND formula being adulterated and faked, and many things like that, doing the same to a pet food or medicine where there is little to no supervison seems all to real. I know this, I am over the 2 to 3 times a year and if I could I would bring my food with me for the entire length of my stay.

More opinion. Work with an avian certified vet. No horse Dr's etc. Ask to see the certificate , should be fairly recent too. Certified in 1965 is not the same as 3 years ago. Your in S. California? Should be many of those in and around the area. Don't be afraid to question the vet about anything, same as your own prognosis and plan of treatment. Too many folks take Dr's word as God's words. Do your research (sounds like you have) as best possible and if their plan seems odd etc, question it. Get fellow owners in your area for Dr recommendations.
Heck I'll give you my vets contact here on Long Island NY if you need it. She is one of the good ones.

A good vet will sometimes set up a payment plan, if the test or treatment is prohibitively high. They know what tests and surgery costs. Ask about their past history with similar cases. Are they spit wadding with the diagnosis and treatment or working from successful results.

More opinion. When a living thing gets sick, people, birds, horses , etc, carefully look at the environment is important. Me, I would have buddy in his cage, on my person or on a clean stand or play area. No walking about on the floor, since your shoes drag in every kind of crap from the streets, one of the worst disease vectors possible. Cage.. clean, as in really clean, best wouId be steam cleaned and often too. Same for play stands and as often as you can do it. Personal interfacing .. no makeup, lipstick, fragrances, hair dyes, nail polishes and anything else that is not YOU skipped until Buddy is well. Hands washed well and anti-bacterial used before handling him.

Opinion, the last. X-rays seem indicated. Barium enemas perhaps, but like I said question everything. Keep in mind Buddy's stress levels to continual testing and treatments. Last year, a macaw died right in the Dr's office while having blood drawn for the umpteenth time ( I asked the Dr what had happened and she was honest and upfront about what had happened).

We all here want to see the best results for poor Buddy's health and recovery. Are all the answers here or other parrot forums, etc? Likely no, but I have found some good advice and superior support from a wide spectrum of people who have the same disease we all have....
we love our parrots. Keep sane in all this, and I wish you and Buddy well. Blessings on you.

 

[midsummermagic]

Awww! So cute!! He's an Amazon, too?

Thank you, Piasa & Wrech13. I really needed the support today. Dr. Nemetz is the most difficult "professional" I have ever had to work with. He is truly atrocious! I gave him a second chance because they say he is good at what he does.. but I wonder now if anyone who says that is just passing on heresay from the lucky few who possess the finances to get on his good side. I have never had an issue not getting along with a vet. I am a very reasonable, communicative patient who trusts that every vet I work with has a love of animals and is doing their job to the best of their ability.

Dr. Nemetz would not let me ask any questions without getting defensive and bullying me to just listen to what he says and then go away. He criticized the initial xrays done by my vets office (which only cost $119) saying he does a much better job and for my $544 wad I expected more than two fuzzy photos. I will post them so you can see my vets xrays are much clearer and they also took four shots. And really that's not why I'm so upset.. it's his inability to respect my needs as a paying client to let me communicate concerns and questions regarding symptoms vs what we are seeing on the xrays that render him completely useless.

He even argued with me about the last visit saying he gave me 3 whole hours of his time.. which I am 100% sure was no more than an hour.. maybe an hour and 15 minutes.. as I sure did make certain I knew how much I got for a $250 chat with this man. If I didn't mention it on this forum.. the initial consult I had with Dr. Nemetz was a total shocker. I went in there excited to go to him and have him look over the year long road I have been on hoping he might see something or give me a direction/guidance. I even drove there an hour early just to make sure I didn't miss any of my allotted time and had extra copies of everything and my bag of every supplement and medicine I have ever gotten. He laughed at me sarcastically out loud and argued with me for a good deal of time why I was even coming to see him if I didn't have any money for treatment. I mean he just couldn't let it go. It was like pulling teeth trying to get info from this guy cuz he kept laughing to himself and saying he can't tell me anything definitively. I mentioned his unprofessional behavior is wasting my time and money and he tried to put the blame on me saying I came in there with an attitude!.. Definitely not so one bit! Just unbelievably bad.

So I sussed it up that time as being excessively left-brained and that's why he must be so good.. possibly autistic. Everyone deserves a second chance, right? But this time I think he's just an a-hole with no compassion or communication skills to such a degree I feel jipped!

So I got home and just felt deflated.. tired.. overwhelmed with sadness and regret over not knowing who to see, what treatment to believe in, how far to go with testing, wasting precious money that could be applied to treatment on dead end roads. Still just deflated. So here is the info squeezed from the visit with Dr. Nemetz (sorry for venting.. I can't help it.. just AWFUL experience).

* His liver is Really large.
* Gas in small intestine
* Possible mass in area of the gonad
* Increase density is caudal left coelomic cavity (?)
* Slight dorsal deviation of thoracic trachea

Possible next steps:
* Liver biopsy
* Barium series
* DNA sexing by Zoogen
* Blood test for Psittacosis (Chlamydia)

I really appreciate the down to Earth understanding of why I am on these forums just trying to do the best with what I can do. I took Buddy off rainbow pellets completely. I am on the Raw Food Parrot Facebook group who have awesome inspiration to really get him eating live food. I do agree Chinese medicine doesn't "feel" right. It worked so well for me it seemed right at the time.. but only gave him a couple doses and it just seemed not the right course. I am really feeling anything native and non-toxic to his species is a good idea. I keep him happy by taking him on walks and to my artists group where we drive for about 20 minutes singing at the top of our lungs to the radio. He gets a shower almost every day because it makes him drink water. He even listens to binaural beats at night (totally amazing if you've never tried them.. use headphones.. makes you feel SO good). I'm still inclined to research safe herbs that will tackle issues such as papilloma and Chlamydia.. though maybe for Chlamydia I can talk to my regular vet and see how taxing on his body the medicine would be. I don't know.. still at square one. Droppings are excessively watery (like it's dumped on the floor), toggles between lots of white and lots of mustard yellow fluid, and scant solid pieces. Stumped and downtrodden..

A funny story to lighten the mood - I took him for a walk today and had to stop at Sprouts to get creamer for my coffee (morning with no coffee is no good, lol). Anyways, I get to the back of the store and he just starts beeping loudly and making all sorts of silly sounds at the top of his lungs. As soon as a bunch of people come to see what the heck the commotion is he just starts laughing!!! SO embarrassing!! OMG! And he knows Exactly what he is doing, too!

That's all I have energy to type tonight. God Bless (((*.*)))

 

[midsummermagic]

Here are links to the xrays:

(New) The Bird Clinic - Dr. Nemetz: X-Rays: The Bird Clinic - Dr. Nemetz - A Girl and Her Bird

(Old) All Creatures Care Cottage: X-Rays: All Creatures Care Cottage - A Girl and Her Bird

 

[Piasa]

Specialist or not, go to a vet who respects your bird. Someone who doesn't care isn't going to do a good job. Try to talk to some people from your area and get recommendations. Check universities with veterinary programs too.

Liver biopsy might be helpful for the liver issues. Because the liver is enlarged and near surface of the skin, they can get to it without anything too invasive - at least this is my understanding. The liver can regenerate itself with the right care. I think they can also do ultrasounds easily on the liver because of where it is located.

When they say coelomic cavity, they just mean the abdomen. When organs are overtaxed, they can enlarge, this crowds the other stuff in the area like the air sacs.

Psittacosis is an illness that legally has to be taken care of very seriously because it can be passed to humans and is nasty in humans. If the result comes back positive, your vet has to report it. They are also legally bound to treat the bird with certain methods if the bird is positive. I think they prescribe Doxycycline for this. There is a choanal swab test you can do for Psittacosis too if blood tests are too hard for Buddy right now - I had this done with my pionus.

The white and yellow fluid may be products from the liver cleansing itself. I know it's usually a bad sign, but could also be this sort of thing. That gunk has to go somewhere.

Trust your gut. Buddy talks TO YOU like no one else. YOU KNOW HIM better than anyone else. Trust your instincts on how treatments are working. Good vets listen to the owner.

LOL love the alarm beep story! Glad he's keeping his sense of humor Keep us updated.

 

[wrench13]

This is Salty's vet here on LI. Never done his before, but its worth a call to her office and ask if she will do a consult with the info you have so far.....tell them Salty Mueller sent you and that Salty sez you really need some sound AV Vet advice....
Heidi Hoefer, DVM, Diplomate ABVP - google her.

Be prepared with quick CONCISE information and have all test results ready to e-mail over instantly.

Wendy is this allowed by Forum rules? I just feel so bad here.

 

[SailBoat]

I believe that Wendy is taking care of some other business at present. Since she has not been as active as usual.

Sharing the name of one's Avian Professional is not out of what I have seen on the Forum.

 

[Terry57]

This is Salty's vet here on LI. Never done his before, but its worth a call to her office and ask if she will do a consult with the info you have so far.....tell them Salty Mueller sent you and that Salty sez you really need some sound AV Vet advice....
Heidi Hoefer, DVM, Diplomate ABVP - google her.

Be prepared with quick CONCISE information and have all test results ready to e-mail over instantly.

Wendy is this allowed by Forum rules? I just feel so bad here.

I will answer for Wendy since she isn't on, but it is definitely allowed I'm sure the OP appreciates the recommendation

 

[Mariar]

Keep us posted....your website is amazing...good luck

 

[midsummermagic]

I can't tell which thread my xrays were taken off because I have a funding page on it.. but it seems they were deleted from this forum. Here are links to the individual images if that makes it better.. it was just easier to post the page rather than 7 individual links. I've actually stopped promoting my funding on Facebook, Pinterest, and YouTube (the only avenues I have actively promoted.. I hate people forcing advertisements especially in sneaky ways.. so not my intention). I don't know what I'm going to do. I don't know if I want to take a chunk out of his liver and after my experience I'm not sure Dr. Nemetz is a balanced enough opinion to really take to heart. Here are the xrays. I am posting in case there is a doctor out there who wants to have a look .. or anybody, really:

New Xrays from Dr. Nemetz:
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/MandyAMZLiver0002.jpg
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/MandyAMZLiver0001.jpg

Old Xrays from All Creatures Care Cottage (about a year ago):
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/buddyostermeier2.jpg
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/buddyostermeier.jpg
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/buddy-ostermeier-2.jpg
http://agirlandherbird.com/wp-content/uploads/buddy-ostermeier-1.jpg

 

[midsummermagic]

I am thankful for the support of this group. I am feeling worn out today.. All I can do is feed him and be silent .. I will compile a concentrated overview of the road tonight, if I feel better, so I can submit an easy to view document to the vets referred to on this forum and others. My birthday is tomorrow - maybe I'll get a miracle, lol.

 

[midsummermagic]

After sitting in silence and mulling over my recent visit with Dr. Nemetz I think I'm going to try to get the barium test done. I don't feel comfortable cutting into his liver and taking a chunk out of it especially since I was unable to get any questions regarding that on the table due to the doctors lack of communication skills. I was under the impression that he is the only local vet who does the barium series, but one of the other vets I saw does them, too. I will be going back to Dr. Weldy (referred by the Lily Sanctuary) as soon as I can scrounge together the dough..

In the meantime I have been trying to feed Buddy all whole foods. I'm not going to lie. It's a big challenge. I am afraid I'm not feeding him enough. I broke down and gave him pellets tonight because I was too tired to chop things up. I got a food dehydrator for my birthday and am working on drying stuff up so I can have a stash for these moments, lol. It's so hard not to cave when he's climbing up and down his cage wanting something more .. What should be the "meat and potatoes" of a whole food diet for parrots?

 

[midsummermagic]

Is it normal when you get xrays to only get two shots? Shouldn't he xray at least both sides of him? I would think the organs on each side would show up clearer.. But I am obviously no doctor..

 

[Piasa]

The base of my whole foods diet is cooked quinoa. It is a complete protein/has all of the amino acids. I cook it in dandelion root tea (this will help liver) and tumeric (many health benefits). I think it must taste good as it has become his favorite food.

I also feed dry chia seed (omega 3, can also feed flax seed) and dry milkthistle seed (liver), and they also help with hunger more than veggies.

If Buddy will eat sprouts, sprout some mung beads, adzuki and lentils - they should all sprout in the same amount of time (3ish days) and provide good proteins. This is not a complete protein unless he also eats brown rice or the quinoa, or another type of whole grain.

Since he is ill, please make sure he is eating something even if it isn't ideal. Better to feed him the good stuff first and after a couple hours, let him have some pellets, at least until you are sure he is converted. I do 2-3 meals a day for my conure with this diet (2 larger ones when he is well, 3 smaller ones if he is off his food or doesn't feel well). He does better with the structure.

I hope you get some answers with the barium test. Remember you can always ask your home vet that you trust what sort of info they look for when a certain test is performed - like, how is info from this test going to help find the problem. Sorry if that seems like such basic advice, but it's something I realized only recently.

 

[Piasa]

Oh, happy belated birthday I wish you a diagnosis for Buddy that you can work with!

 

[midsummermagic]

Thank you Piasa! It was a quiet Birthday.

I've been sitting still.. mulling over everything. Trying to let all the information settle so I can see what feels right for him.. I don't think I will get enough money for the barium test. Your food suggestions are helpful. I made him quinoa the other day.. he ate it one day and not the next.

His symptoms seem most like papilloma virus so that is what I am going to go with. I think dandelion sounds good if I can find a way to make him eat it. Dandelion is also supposed to help with gas. I don't know what is causing the gas. He won't eat sprouts. I made flax/chia crackers and he flung them across the cage! I can sometimes get him to eat "chop" if I put a sweet dressing on it. I made a super tasty mango, ginger, cilantro dressing that he loved.

I made him birdie pancakes tonight using amaranth flour which is supposed to be high in L-Lysine (something that helps keep HPV at bay). I topped the pancakes with sweet potato baby food (high in Vitamin A) mixed with Bee Propolis (check out this article: Papillomatosis | New Life Parrot Rescue) and a smidge of manuka honey. I'm trying to get him to eat pineapple and papaya for the enzymes, but he turns his beak up at those, too! The pellets he eats a lot less. I think whole grain birdie bread is the way to go. He's making me change my diet, too! Lol.

 

[midsummermagic]

I found a clue! It's really gross!!! I was checking out Buddy's poo as usual (I know.. yuck!) And there was something moving in it! I grabbed a toothpick to separate it from the goo and it's a fly looking thing with a red head. Does anyone know what this is???!!

[ame="https://youtu.be/R6uyKFPeVY4"]https://youtu.be/R6uyKFPeVY4[/ame]

 

[BIRDIGIRL]

I dont know what that insect is but if its a parasite that has a symbiotic relationship with your Parrot then you need to have it identified properly ASAP by people who are scientifically qualified to do so and once that has been done you can then move on and hopefully get a suitable treatment. Nature evolves all the time and I dont know if this is a new type of parasite or not but having found it as you did it merrits propper scientific analysis and identification. Im sure your vet would be able to organise this for you.
This link while not directly related to your finding might give you some food for thought
Sympatric Speciation in Phytophagous Parasitic Insects - Springer