Pair Blue Front Amazon - 30+ years old

[hartster]

Hello Forum,

I got a pair of Blue Front Amazons, breeder birds from Arizona. I'm a novice at best in San Diego. They were in a darkened bottom cage, was told they are overweight, not DNA sexed but bonded pair, 30+ years old and thats all the info they had on the birds. Breeder birds, not tame at all.

They look physically different, F is petite, M is larger with a full yellow head. They were touching, like bookends. I visited daily at different times for ten days straight, very little movement and no play. M very aggressive and protective and F fearful. I took them home. These birds are fantastic. Incredibly resilient, unusually quiet. Got them off seed and on Roudybush Natural pellet diet in four days, plus fruits and veggies. Great eaters...

After two weeks I started to realize the birds may have medical issues. The M sneezed a few times a day, no discharge. The F drops her left shoulder and carries herself like maybe she had a wing injury in the past. I decided to take them to a recommended avian vet here in San Diego. We did a blood panel on both birds, exam and weight and grooming. Vet said they are older birds, M older than F. The M has indications of fatty liver, white blood cell count was off, he is underweight and has cataracts, one eye is pretty cloudy. The F is small, body weight is ok, she has cataracts too but to a lesser degree. The M got oral antibiotic for 7 days and isn't sneezing now. They had two visits to the vet.

So, thats the intro. From my perspective the birds are perfect and seem super happy and healthy since I brought them home. I take care of them, not tryin to make them pets. I got an older pair thinking they're older so I won't have to deal with babies or eggs. Oh well... They're a crack up, they play and bicker sometimes too. I spend time with them and got the M to say Hello and Wolf Whistle. The M hangs on the cage and opens his wings all the way and clucks, then flaps his wings as fast as he can for thirty seconds like he's flying. He runs upside down on the top of the cage. Very good eaters, fruit, veggies, pellet. Will take apple piece out of my hand, the male tries to bite me first. They play, exercise in the outdoor flight cage, VERY hormonal (i was told this was not going to happen) but the male won't comply. The F lays down and coos like a dove, squealing almost and fluttering her wings. The M stays upright but won't climb on her and he gets frustrated and he pushes her back, nipping her feet until she leaves. She immediately goes and eats pellets. Then he does a dance with the hood tail flipping his head around and starts grunting and honking - hormonal sounds. M eats and regurgitates food into her mouth like feeding a baby bird. He charges me every time I approach. M spends a lot of time in the nest box, she has been in there only a couple times. I never see them drink water. It really bugs me. I got them a bottle as well but they don't seem to use it. I've seen them drink but not much.

The birds seem healthy to me. They look a lot better lately, especially the male. They love their spray bottle baths on hot days. They tolerate me. All the grooming, baths, natural sunlight and fresh air seems to have helped. I read that certain foods work to de-toxify the liver so i'm giving them an even more varied diet, chic pea, walnuts, free range egg yolks, brussels sprouts, peas, cabbage, etc. I also started giving them aloe vera twice a week and I'm considering doing Aloe Detox. I'm planning to let their wings grow out.

1.What more can I do on their diet? For the male as far as diet? (fatty liver)

2. I never see them drink water. It really bugs me. I got them a bottle as well but they don't seem to use it. I've seen them drink but not much. How can I get them to drink more water?

3. Will they ever breed, or is he too sick? Anything I can do?

4. The breeders I know here in San Diego keep their birds outside and my birds are outside. I have a wind break, under a 120' eucalyptus tree, the breeder cage is two feet off the ground, 3'x3'x6' w/boot shape nest box, covered for shade, faces east so it gets the warm morning sun and shade in the afternoon. What direction should the cage face? Any recommendations for outdoor aviary?

I want to give the birds the best environment I can. Any advice or tips and tricks I can get on diet, avian liver disease, breeding behaviors, care and feeding, etc. is much appreciated.

Thank you! Bud and Miss Piggy

 

[SailBoat]

Welcome to Parrot Forums!

- Please remove the Nesting Box ASAP!!! This year, you do not want them mating and clearly do not want them producing eggs. Their health needs to improve first.

- Get them water dishes! Most Parrots have little to no experience drinking from water bottles and without rotation and deep cleaning, they tend to be the source of several illnesses.

- Visit the Amazon Forum and read the first two Threads (highlighed in light blue). In the "I Love Amazons - ... Thread you will find a Segment on Amazon diet, plus many other very useful Segments.

- Get them off of Dowels and on to 2.5 to 3" natural branches for Perches.

More later and from others, but this will give you a Starting Point.

 

[Scott]

A warm welcome from a fellow San Diegan, I'm likely a bit farther to your north in Oceanside.

You've already heard from Sailboat, our resident Amazon expert! I have a single Amazon and some experience with an older pair of Goffins. Sadly male aggression forced them apart, something less likely with your birds.

Is your vet Dr. "J?" If so, his advice is about the finest you'll receive in our area. Some members have extensive experience with fatty liver issues and are knowledgeable with a specific aloe detox.

You've done wonders acclimating them to a better diet! Depending on the moisture content of their vegetables and fruits, they won't drink copious amounts of water. Dishes *far* better and safer than bottles.

Unless you are well inland with very cold winter temperatures, a secure outdoor aviary will be fine. I assume they were in a climate controlled facility in Arizona? They should acclimate well to our winters, given it is May and they have several months before the temps drop.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Thank you for taking these little ones into your life! The sticky posts at the top of the Amazons forum are a great place to start.

I've read some incredible testimonials about Aloe Detox. Doesn't seem as if it could do any harm and might do good.

 

[Flboy]

Welcome to you, such an undertaking!

 

[hartster]

Hi everyone and thank you! The thread on Amazons is great!

This newbie thanks you! My BFA's are a pair and breeder birds. I have little physical contact with them. I'm looking for any information on pairs of breeder birds and their behavior, best practice, care and feeding.

1. The nest box, sailboat suggests removing it - this year. Can you explain?

They seem to like it in there, I assume its warmer and they have started to hang out in there. They are in there right now, there's a light rain, its 58 degrees. Again, as a new parrot owner I am drawn towards sheltering/protecting/providing, not taking away. Taking it away is better for them, why?

2. There are no dowels, only manzanita 2" and 3", therapeutic corner perch XLG, and a flat perch 12" x 6" soft pine. They use all perches and rest on the bottom of the cage as well.

3. They use water bowls. I have seen them drink, but not often, and less with the F. The M took a bath in one, upside down no less last week when it was 85 degrees lol. I clean and refresh the bowls twice a day.

Thank you for your help!

 

[Kiwibird]

1. Are these birds living outdoors instead of indoors? The suggestion is because the birds are in poor health by the looks and sounds of it on top of being older and raising young is hard on even the healthiest birds. The intention is to discourage breeding until they are in better health and better adjusted. Since large parrots like amazons should only breed once a year, it would likely be best to wait until next spring to have an avian vet check their health again and see where they're at and if they're in breeding condition at that time. It will also allow you plenty of time to learn more about breeding parrots, hand feeding baby parrots and to purchase the necessary supplies to hand feed the babies after you pull them from the parents at a few weeks old (such as a brooder and the supplies for feeding formula). It is quite difficult to sell parent raised birds anymore since everyone wants a tame baby, but it is also of benefit to the lifetime health of the baby to be cared for by the parents for several weeks to get the beneficial bacteria only the parent birds can provide them.

Also, despite the fact it is unlikely they will ever become "friendly" you can and should work with them a bit to at least get used to you and tolerate your presence. Who knows, with some kindness and patience, one or both may even decide you're worthy of being their friend Parrots are flock creatures and while these 2 are obviously mates that doesn't mean they don't interact with others besides their mate in nature, thus they may be willing to do some minimal interaction with you too if you work on earning their trust. Our BFA was not a breeder that we know of, but boy was he a nasty, vicious thing when we adopted him. We wanted a pet, so we put in a lot of effort making him into one, but even a far lesser effort should produce some results with these 2 and will likely make life a whole lot easier for you being their caretaker.

2. Sounds good! It is just a general recommendation as many new owners have no idea that dowels aren't good for their feet and around their age is when arthritis can start setting in.

3.Parrots derive most of their moisture needs from their diet- i.e. fruit, veggies, cooked beans/grains, moistened pellets etc... Therefore, if they are eating a healthy diet with a wide range of fresh foods, they shouldn't need to drink from a dish often. As for bathing, amazons LOVE baths. My BFA showers with us almost daily and still takes dish baths almost daily. On warm days, you can gently mist them with a water bottle (that has never had anything but water in it). Parrots should be bathed at least once a week, if not more to keep their plumage in good condition.

 

[hartster]

Thanks everyone for the advice. I removed the nest box and covered that side of the cage and will let the birds rest. The cage is covered on the top, back and the right side for a wind break, plus it is in a corner, against a fence on two sides for additional wind break and privacy. I will continue working on the fatty liver detox, proper diet and exercise. I thought the nest box would be healthy for them not stressful.

Is a nest box needed at all?

if she starts laying eggs what should I do?

Do I remove the nest box after the birds have babies and they leave the nest?

is this something i have to add/take away each spring/summer?

 

[Kiwibird]

In you initial post, you mentioned the male was (is?) on antibiotics. Is the male now in the all clear from the vet in regards to the infection? If not, it would be wise to bring him indoors temporarily (female too, if they are distressed being apart) until the infection clears. I have a lot of 'general knowledge' about breeding behaviors from years of research and participation on this forum, but I am not a breeder. I strongly suggest you post breeding specific questions in the breeding subforum to get those experienced with breeding parrots to notice the questions.

The nest box in and of itself isn't necessarily stressful, it's the fact that as a proven pair, instinct may well take over and drive them to breed if provided a place to do so.
You may consider building a small pseudo-nestbox for them with no bottom and have a perch across the inside instead of a bottom (one that, obviously would be completely inside the enclosure so they can't escape!). If they don't have a safe place to lay eggs, they probably won't, but a shelter similar to a nest box might provide them some security and comfort as well as a warm place to cuddle during inclement weather. Since these are breeder birds not pets, many of the territorial concerns surrounding providing this kind of shelter aren't relevant in your case. Be sure to use stainless screws to assemble and use a bird safe wood like untreated pine. Something to this effect, but out of wood:

Are these birds currently housed in a cage or aviary? If aviary, what is it made of? Aviaries for parrots *must* be made of stainless steel, aluminum or there are a few "ready made" powder-coat models available as well. Anything zinc-coated or "galvanized" metal (such as chicken wire or most other metal meshes from the local hardware store) is extremely toxic to them. Safe Metals For Parrots

 

[GaleriaGila]

Thank you for rescuing this pair!
As you may have noticed, you've hit the jackpot of advice and support here!
Good for you, for reaching out... there is a terrific Amazon network here.
Stay tuned!

 

[SailBoat]

Nest Box:

- Nest (and therefore Nest Boxes) are part of the signals that a Parrot Pair should be or are entering Mating Season. It being available is like a switch within their hardwired selves and that switch can /does turn-on a hormonal rush in both and a chemical signal in the female that energy stores are needed to product eggs. This process places demands on the Parrot and a Parrot not in full health is stressing their system, possibly beyond their abilities.

- When a nest box is away part of their World, the Hardwired reaction can keep them in a near constant Mating State. In their Natural Range, once they have their young flying, the family leaves the nest. By keeping them confronted with the Nest Box you are stressing them.

NOTE: If the individual you purchased them from or the prior own kept that Nest Box connected all the time, they had been pushing the Pair to Multi-batches within a single year! That seriously weakens the Parrots, but enriches the breeder (small 'b') because they are doing it for the money!

Please remove the Nest Box and allow these two Amazons to rest and recover.

I hope that this helps!