Orin started having severe seizures

[noodles123]

If you are in a "hospice" situation (aka, pain management for remaining quality of life with little to lose), then CBD could possibly make some sense (as a last resort, knowing there are risks), especially if the alternative is dangerous too (in theory--just hard to say)---in humans, micro-dosing is actually recommended after increasing to an initial level. It also depends on the type of CBD--Reportedly, terpenes *again, ONLY studied/reported in humans** and milligrams as well as sourcing can make a difference but it's so hard to say even what that would look like with a parrot...I am sorry I can't help more...I am not saying there is no merit to trying (because CBD can be a wonder drug in mammals-- but while it could work in parrots, there are few if any studies) I just can't say anything specific in terms of dosing or micro-dosing, but terrapins etc change a lot in humans-- so maybe research those? There was a human (who is obviously not a bird in terms of biological processing etc) but she used CBD to stop serious seizures...but she recently passed from her seizure disorder (although CBD helped for a long time). That having been said, It can sometimes be deadly when we try to translate mammal to avian, but it sounds like you are in a last-resort-mode...so maybe? ***HOWEVER-- have you tried other avian vets? because not all are created equal***

You are doing your best. I'm sorry you are dealing with all of this pain (for both you and your bird).

 

[Scott]

Very sad to know Orin is seizing again with regularity. Agree with noodles above, perhaps second opinion by another avian vet?

 

[Orin2017]

Thanks you guys. Thankfully, the seizures have been reduced in frequency to about 5 a day, mostly in the morning. That is without any cbd. I?m giving her anti-biotics and a liquid calcium supplement, since her labwork showed low calcium levels and there is a link between low calcium levels in birds and seizures. Whether either of the two are responsible for lowering the seizures, I know not. I?m just throwing everything but the kitchen sink at her. The good news is that we were at a point where she was out of it continuously, and screaming while experiencing non stop seizures, with no signs of being herself?.to this: being herself for most of the day, vocalizing, eating, being loving and playful. Her current seizures are silent ones too, which is good, because the screaming is what gets my wife fired up about putting her asleep. Note: it is difficult to get her to swallow liquids I administer via syringe: she just shakes her head to expel the liquids from her mouth. Anyone know any tricks for forcing birds to swallow liquid? I?m only giving her .5ml of liquid calcium and .2ml of anti-biotics. It?s not a lot.

I?m just so happy for the improvement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Scott]

Wonderful update albeit not complete cessation of seizures. Your dedication and love making a huge difference for Orin!

Syringe medication difficult even with most compliant bird! My favorite techniques include mixing liquid with plain cooked oatmeal, low salt/sugar baby food, or dissolving in small piece of bread. Trick is smallest possible decoy that Orin will completely consume for full dose. Too small and taste becomes obstacle. Caveat: Check with vet to ensure mixing is permitted, some drugs may preclude.

 

[Orin2017]

So, my conure, Orrin, is STILL having seizures. I abandoned the CBD a long time ago. It sedated her and while sedated she didn’t have seizures but after the sedation wore off she continued having seizures.

Because the vet did lab work and said Orrin had low calcium and vitamin D levels—which causes seizures in birds—I bought a calcium, magnesium and vitamin D supplement for birds on Amazon. It is a powder form. I have been mixing that powder with water and storing it in a 1 OZ dropper bottle. Until recently, I tried to administer a drop in her mouth per day but she spit it out afterwards every time. Her seizures continued during all this time, naturally. I changed my administering technique a couple months ago by adding the drops to her Harrison nuggets. She actually enjoys her Harrison nuggets wet! But her seizures continue.

I would most happily prefer that she gets her calcium from leafy greens but she hates green vegetables and will not eat them. From Amazon, I just ordered a couple other products for Orrin: vitamin drops for birds, and another calcium supplement (as we’re running low). These products have not arrived yet. When they do, I will add the liquid to her Harrison nuggets since I know she will eat them wet more than she will when they are dry. That said, she still doesn’t eat “much” nuggets. My wife insists on giving her equal portions of safflower seeds and millet and I can’t win that fight no matter how many years that battle goes on. Plus, whatever we ourselves eat, Orrin attempts to eat too, unless it is greens and stuff that is good for her.

Okay, now I am asking for some advise. Even if the advise is directing me to another thread or inviting someone else to this thread, and nothing more, I still need your help. If you know where I can find the products I’m looking for, that’s even better.

I’ve read that birds, just like humans, can have healthy bacteria in the GI system displaced by bad bacteria, and that replenishing good bacteria can solve problems related to the inability to absorb vitamins and minerals. In theory, that would explain why Orrin’s seizures haven’t stopped after calcium was added to her Harrison nuggets. Feather plucking is also said to be another sign of malabsorption—and Orrin has done this consistently since she was a baby—although I’m aware of all of the other reasons for feather plucking too. Just saying, the other reasons for feather plucking don’t explain the calcium deficiency and seizures. But the bacteria theory explains it all, and we don’t think Orrin has much time left. With that in mind, I also read that the bacteria which is healthy for human GI systems is not the same as the bacteria that is healthy for the GI systems of birds; and, for that reason, it would be harmful to our bird to give her probiotics made for humans. So I searched for avian probiotics…EDIT: It looks like I ordered a probiotic for parrots that hasn’t been delivered yet. Equa Hollistics is the maker. It’s a dry probiotic. That seems to have good reviews. Does anyone have any experience with non-poultry, captive bird probiotics, fit for parrots and conures? Is this one the only one on the market?

The other area is for a type of powered “super greens” products that contains kale and broccoli but does NOT contain probiotics. All of the super greens products I see have probiotics in them too. Do you know where I could obtain a small quantity of super greens containing kale and broccoli without probiotics? Or, instead of some company’s blanket all “super greens,” a powdered form (perhaps freeze-dried, or dehydrated) of kale and broccoli? Just 1 OZ would last Orrin many, many years, if she had the time left in life to consume it. Her time is short, and we are trying to do what we can on a small, fixed budget to save her life and take away her pain. And when she has seizures, she is in a lot of pain! She screams bloody murder! And gets so twisted up! It’s so heartbreaking to watch. Then for days after a bad one she lets her head hang down all of the time, with little movements like she’s trying to lift her head but can’t. In the last week or two, she has been sleeping WAY late, many, many hours later than she used to wake up.

I appreciate any and all help. Thanks.

 

[zERo]

So, my conure, Orrin, is STILL having seizures. I abandoned the CBD a long time ago. It sedated her and while sedated she didn’t have seizures but after the sedation wore off she continued having seizures.

Because the vet did lab work and said Orrin had low calcium and vitamin D levels—which causes seizures in birds—I bought a calcium, magnesium and vitamin D supplement for birds on Amazon. It is a powder form. I have been mixing that powder with water and storing it in a 1 OZ dropper bottle. Until recently, I tried to administer a drop in her mouth per day but she spit it out afterwards every time. Her seizures continued during all this time, naturally. I changed my administering technique a couple months ago by adding the drops to her Harrison nuggets. She actually enjoys her Harrison nuggets wet! But her seizures continue.

I would most happily prefer that she gets her calcium from leafy greens but she hates green vegetables and will not eat them. From Amazon, I just ordered a couple other products for Orrin: vitamin drops for birds, and another calcium supplement (as we’re running low). These products have not arrived yet. When they do, I will add the liquid to her Harrison nuggets since I know she will eat them wet more than she will when they are dry. That said, she still doesn’t eat “much” nuggets. My wife insists on giving her equal portions of safflower seeds and millet and I can’t win that fight no matter how many years that battle goes on. Plus, whatever we ourselves eat, Orrin attempts to eat too, unless it is greens and stuff that is good for her.

Okay, now I am asking for some advise. Even if the advise is directing me to another thread or inviting someone else to this thread, and nothing more, I still need your help. If you know where I can find the products I’m looking for, that’s even better.

I’ve read that birds, just like humans, can have healthy bacteria in the GI system displaced by bad bacteria, and that replenishing good bacteria can solve problems related to the inability to absorb vitamins and minerals. In theory, that would explain why Orrin’s seizures haven’t stopped after calcium was added to her Harrison nuggets. Feather plucking is also said to be another sign of malabsorption—and Orrin has done this consistently since she was a baby—although I’m aware of all of the other reasons for feather plucking too. Just saying, the other reasons for feather plucking don’t explain the calcium deficiency and seizures. But the bacteria theory explains it all, and we don’t think Orrin has much time left. With that in mind, I also read that the bacteria which is healthy for human GI systems is not the same as the bacteria that is healthy for the GI systems of birds; and, for that reason, it would be harmful to our bird to give her probiotics made for humans. So I searched for avian probiotics…and found nothing yet. That is one area where I could really use your help.

The other area is for a type of powered “super greens” products that contains kale and broccoli but does NOT contain probiotics. All of the super greens products I see have probiotics in them too. Do you know where I could obtain a small quantity of super greens containing kale and broccoli without probiotics? Or, instead of some company’s blanket all “super greens,” a powdered form (perhaps freeze-dried, or dehydrated) of kale and broccoli? Just 1 OZ would last Orrin many, many years, if she had the time left in life to consume it. Her time is short, and we are trying to do what we can on a small, fixed budget to save her life and take away her pain. And when she has seizures, she is in a lot of pain! She screams bloody murder! And gets so twisted up! It’s so heartbreaking to watch. Then for days after a bad one she lets her head hang down all of the time, with little movements like she’s trying to lift her head but can’t. In the last week or two, she has been sleeping WAY late, many, many hours later than she used to wake up.

I appreciate any and all help. Thanks.

Wow, what you're going through must be so very tough. Watching her hurt and not knowing how to help, I can't even imagine.

I know where you can buy powdered greens

Freeze Dried Herb Blend​

Regular price$9.00
Default Title
ADD TO CART
A specialized blend of herbs and florals to add diversity to your bird's diet.
Includes: lemon grass, chia seed, lavender, chamomile, cornflower, marigold, rosehips, calendula, basil, mint, parsley, cilantro and rosemary.

This one is from 2022, Texas Natural Freeze Dried Products It doesn't have kale or other greens but does contain some calcium and chamomile is calming.

Another one

Super Greens​

$10.99
5.0 star rating5 Reviews



Size
-- Select --Small 4 ouncesLarge 8 ouncesBulk 16 ounces

Quantity
ADD TO CART

This product is packed with nutrition. Dozens of greens in a powder form that can be sprinkled on any bird's food for added nutrition.

This one is from CHRISTINE'S CHOP SHOP

Those are some of the products I've used before and know they are great. Does she like almonds? They contain lots of calcium, or you could try grating cuttlebone onto her wet pellets.
As for Vitamin D, does she like eggs any way? Great source of vit D and calcium


Hope this helps

 

[Orin2017]

After asking about the avian probiotics, I just now found one mentioned on this forum made by Equa Hollistics. Then I returned to Amazon, found it, and realized that I purchased this late in September. It hasn’t arrived yet. I must have found it late at night and ordered it and didn’t remember finding it. I hope it works!

 

[Orin2017]

Wow, what you're going through must be so very tough. Watching her hurt and not knowing how to help, I can't even imagine.

I know where you can buy powdered greens

Freeze Dried Herb Blend​

Regular price$9.00
Default Title
ADD TO CART
A specialized blend of herbs and florals to add diversity to your bird's diet.
Includes: lemon grass, chia seed, lavender, chamomile, cornflower, marigold, rosehips, calendula, basil, mint, parsley, cilantro and rosemary.

This one is from 2022, Texas Natural Freeze Dried Products It doesn't have kale or other greens but does contain some calcium and chamomile is calming.

Another one

Super Greens​

$10.99
5.0 star rating5 Reviews



Size
-- Select --Small 4 ouncesLarge 8 ouncesBulk 16 ounces

Quantity
ADD TO CART

This product is packed with nutrition. Dozens of greens in a powder form that can be sprinkled on any bird's food for added nutrition.

This one is from CHRISTINE'S CHOP SHOP

Those are some of the products I've used before and know they are great. Does she like almonds? They contain lots of calcium, or you could try grating cuttlebone onto her wet pellets.
As for Vitamin D, does she like eggs any way? Great source of vit D and calcium


Hope this helps

Hey thanks a bunch! I’ll look at that!

 

[Orin2017]

Wow, what you're going through must be so very tough. Watching her hurt and not knowing how to help, I can't even imagine.

I know where you can buy powdered greens

Freeze Dried Herb Blend​

Regular price$9.00
Default Title
ADD TO CART
A specialized blend of herbs and florals to add diversity to your bird's diet.
Includes: lemon grass, chia seed, lavender, chamomile, cornflower, marigold, rosehips, calendula, basil, mint, parsley, cilantro and rosemary.

This one is from 2022, Texas Natural Freeze Dried Products It doesn't have kale or other greens but does contain some calcium and chamomile is calming.

Another one

Super Greens​

$10.99
5.0 star rating5 Reviews



Size
-- Select --Small 4 ouncesLarge 8 ouncesBulk 16 ounces

Quantity
ADD TO CART

This product is packed with nutrition. Dozens of greens in a powder form that can be sprinkled on any bird's food for added nutrition.

This one is from CHRISTINE'S CHOP SHOP

Those are some of the products I've used before and know they are great. Does she like almonds? They contain lots of calcium, or you could try grating cuttlebone onto her wet pellets.
As for Vitamin D, does she like eggs any way? Great source of vit D and calcium


Hope this helps

You know, I never thought of grating cuddlebone. As far as eggs go, she loves scrambled eggs. I thought it was the egg shells that were high in calcium; I thought it would be kind of impossible to feed her egg shells. She has not liked any kind of nuts so far. Just seeds. She likes berries, grapes, bananas, apples, safflower seeds, millet, cooked pasta, and she seems to like shredded cheese too, and bread. I don’t feed her bread myself, or bird junk food (seeds, but only safflower seeds) but my wife does. I try to get her to focus on Harrison’s since that is supposed to be good for her own dietary needs.

 

[Percival the great]

Man this all sucks! I hope you find something that helps! Losing pets is the worst and never gets easier! Just know you have the right to be distraught and sad! don’t let anyone tell you otherwise!

 

[Littleredbeak]

Ive had luck with organic grass fed yogurt and organic apple cider vinegar to help promote good bacteria.

I was once told the egg shells has very thing a bird needs to absorb the calcium (I grind it up in a coffee grinder for my birds)

 

[Skarila]

I am very sorry to hear your dearie is still having seizures.

If you're unsure about the good bacteria in guts, you should be able to send some droppings for testing. My Emma's Conure had lack of good bacteria when i got him (which was found out by microbiological tests from his droppings). We fixed it with giving probiotics for birds and reptiles, in Europe we call it Ac-I-Prim. I think i was giving it for 2 months. Next tests shown that it got better, the bacterial flora became normal.

Unfortunately i do not have any other suggestions. I pray your bird gets better soon and that the seizures stop.

 

[Laurasea]

I would ask for ruke out if chronic zinc toxicity. And an awake non sedated x-rays.

I feed plain Greek yogurt, no artificial sweetners be sure and check. With active culture. This will help with calcium and with gut flora. Despite lots if drama around yogurt it is listed on numerous parrot safe food lists. I have fed it to mine for decades .
My birds will lick from my finger after I beak tip touch it to those who have never tried it. For a gcc I give 1/2 teaspoon twice daily ( when health issues on antibiotics ) otherwise I offer when ever I have yogurt a couple of times a week or so.

Your Complete Guide to Bird Calcium for Optimal Health and Happiness

Is cuttlebone for bird's enough? Find out the truth about bird calcium and how to keep your feathered friend strong and healthy. Click to learn more!

birdsupplies.com

Myself personally feel low calcium is not the answer to the seizure or the whole answer ..........unless a chronic egg layer or an Africa grey.
They could be from past head trauma night fright could have happened then or the night fright was the first seizure...possibly injury from blood draw ( rare but is possible), injury during restraint to cervical spine ( rare does happen ) epilepsy of unknown origin..

Feather-Plucking - an overview | ScienceDirect Topics

www.sciencedirect.com

 

[HeatherG]

Maybe it would be good to see if the poor bird has any brain tumor or visible injuries?

Metal pellets anywhere in body (ingested) would stand out in X-ray, too.

Or has this been done?

I’m so sorry Orin and you are going through this.

 

[Orin2017]

Ive had luck with organic grass fed yogurt and organic apple cider vinegar to help promote good bacteria.

I was once told the egg shells has very thing a bird needs to absorb the calcium (I grind it up in a coffee grinder for my birds)

So I understand you correctly, you feed your bird apple cider vinegar?

What’s grass fed yogurt?

I’ll try that tip about grinding up egg shells in a coffee grinder. I don’t drink coffee anymore so it won’t contaminate my coffee. How do you administer the ground egg shell powder? My bird does not eat much at all per day and it is not as easy as sprinkling stuff “in her food.” Sprinkled on her Harrison nuggets, powder just rolls right off the nuggets. Although powder may stick to fruit, I don’t have enough powder (for example, powdered calcium supplement, and soon powdered probiotics) to cover the surface area of fruit, especially slices of bananas. I never know where my bird will take a bite out of banana slices. Then again, my wife makes eggs for herself often enough that powered egg shell wouldn’t be as precious of a commodity as powdered calcium supplements. My wife cuts grapes in half, and grapes would allow powder to stick to it…but my bird seldom touches grapes anymore like she used to. She used to eat a 1/8th to a 1/4 of a grape a day. Now we’re lucky if she takes a bite out of a grape. Grapes and apples are expensive too.

 

[HeatherG]

There are other drugs besides phenobarbital which treat seizures. Orrin also might be less sleepy with phenobarbital (or alternative) than he was with cbd oil.

I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time.

 

[Littleredbeak]

I sprinkle it in their food and also offer the calcium by itself.

The organic grass-fed yogurt I use is maple hills.

I'll put a drop of apple cidar vinegar in their water. (Monitor water intake as some will not drink the water if you put too much)
How is Orin doing? Any improvements?

 

[Orin2017]

Maybe it would be good to see if the poor bird has any brain tumor or visible injuries?

Metal pellets anywhere in body (ingested) would stand out in X-ray, too.

Or has this been done?

I’m so sorry Orin and you are going through this.

I don’t remember whether x-rays were taken or not, honestly.

 

[Orin2017]

There are other drugs besides phenobarbital which treat seizures. Orrin also might be less sleepy with phenobarbital (or alternative) than he was with cbd oil.

I’m sorry you’re having such a hard time.

It was so long ago that we got the prescription seizure medication, a liquid to be orally dispensed by syringe, from a pharmacy that blended it. Whatever it was, it was very sedating. I didn’t know that there is non-sedating, anti-seizure medication for birds.

 

[Orin2017]

I sprinkle it in their food and also offer the calcium by itself.

The organic grass-fed yogurt I use is maple hills.

I'll put a drop of apple cidar vinegar in their water. (Monitor water intake as some will not drink the water if you put too much)
How is Orin doing? Any improvements?

I was waiting on my wife to make eggs again. Anyways, she did, although I had to pull the egg shells out of the top of the trash can because she forgot to save them for me. I washed the egg shells under faucet water, then dried them on a paper towel; when dried, I ground them up in a coffee grinder. Then I used a single cup, porcelain coffee cup with a porcelain filter holder that goes on top, and I poured all of the fine egg shell powder inside of a coffee filter, then poured about 1/2 a cup of isopropyl rubbing alcohol into the filter and mixed up the powder and alcohol, then let the alcohol drain through the filter into the coffee cup. Once drained, I discarded the rubbing alcohol, then dumped the wet egg shell powder onto the top of a folded up paper towel until the powder completely dried. I was able to fill up a standard-sized, empty RX medication bottle about 1/3 to 1/2 way full of powdered egg shell powder from just 5 egg shells.

So, with sterilized egg shell powder made…. I moistened a little bit of Harrison’s nuggets tonight (using a different method tonight and from now on) and added a little egg shell powder to the nuggets. Just enough to change the outer color of the nuggets initially to a whitish color. Once dried, the nuggets returned to the same color.

Until today, I have used an amber dropper bottle to mix the Unruffled Feathers brand of dry calcium + magnesium + vitamin D supplement powder with water, and to store the liquid for use. Sometime in this last year, my wife began noticing that this amber dropper bottle had “floaters” in it which she assumed was from the supplement and water. I saw that the floaters were black and that the only other thing the same color is the suction cup of the eye dropper. So I started dumping out the liquid in the amber bottle and cleaning it, then make new batches of mixture every couple weeks, then every week. It sucked, because we used up a lot more supplement powder. But it was ultimately better for our Orrin’s health not to have floaters in the same water as her supplement mixture. Now, instead of an eye dropper and an amber bottle, I have a small, clear spray bottle that atomizes water into the tiniest size of droplets.

Tonight, I added 2 scoops of dry calcium supplement powder to that new spray bottle, which is probably about a 3oz size bottle (taller yet narrower than the old 1oz bottle), and I only filled that new bottle with roughly 0.25oz of mixed water and dry calcium supplement powder, because clearly my conure wasn’t getting enough calcium with a larger, pre-use ratio of 1 scoop of dry supplement powder to .5oz or .75oz of water.

As to whether any of the aforementioned changes actually helps, it’s too soon to say: I don’t know yet. I can say that she does eat her Harrison nuggets after the nuggets are moistened and then sprinkled with egg shell powder. The egg shell powder doesn’t have a bitter smell to it either, unlike the dissolved calcium supplement powder.

I think when my avian probiotics arrive, I’ll still moisten the Harrison nuggets with dissolved calcium supplement powder even though I’m sprinkling in powdered egg shells, because the Unruffled brand of supplement powder also contains magnesium and vitamin D, and her lab work showed low levels of vitamin D and calcium. But rather than dissolving the dry probiotic powder into water and using that water to moisten her Harrison nuggets, I’ll add the dry probiotic powder into the moistened Harrison nuggets along with the egg shell powder. At the same time I ordered the dry avian probiotics, I also ordered liquid avian vitamins and minerals, and (unless I’m not remembering correctly, which is quite possible) I ordered a separate liquid form of calcium too, because I’ll soon run out of the Unruffled Feathers brand of calcium supplement. I’ll just have to figure out how many liquid drops to add to the water in which I dissolved the dry supplement powder containing calcium, magnesium and vitamin D. While my conure wasn’t previously getting enough calcium, as evidenced by her continued seizures—even though one member here disagrees about seizure causation—I don’t want to give her an overdose of calcium either. If her seizures stop, then I’ll have lab work performed again. If, after lab work is performed and after her seizures hopefully stop, the calcium levels are higher than needed, I’ll know to decrease her calcium levels somewhat. Until then, I’m going to overshoot rather than under shoot her calcium intake.

Thanks for all of the advise. As money permits, I’ll still buy freeze dried kale and broccoli and use my same sinister methods of tricking her. She will eat particlized green veggies if she won’t eat them whole!