Orin started having severe seizures

[Orin2017]

It started out with my green cheek conure making a scream followed by fluttering of her wings, at night, and then that was that: it was over. I checked and saw she had fallen to the bottom of her cage. She was dazed. Lifting her back up to her bed—a shelf I made for her—I let her crawl into her bed.

Perhaps weeks maybe even later, we took her to the vet to get her wings clipped, hoping to prevent concussions. She is not a caged bird so she has had her fair share of falling or flying into things.

Then just a day or two after her wings were clipped, she started having serious seizures, like grand mal seizures. There was no way to contain her when she did have an episode, because she was flopping around on my bed and before it was over she had landed on the carpeted floor, thud! Poor sweet girl. Then the frequency of the episodes increased, and we made an appointment with the avian vet.

The vet used a sedative to draw blood, then injected her with something to snap her out of it. The vet listened to what I had to say and then prescribed us some medicine that had to be special blended, for the seizures, and sent us to the pharmacy the next day (yesterday).

Unfortunately the medicine did not work, at least not yet. The frequency of the episodes has been increasing to the point of having an episode every few minutes.

My wife is ever swift to jump to the conclusion that we were losing our bird, that she was on her last thralls of death and that I was mean to go on torturing Orin by assisting her to live.

Last night Orin slept in her pet carrier, were I figured she couldn’t fall or slam into anything hard....only she never slept because the episodes continued all throughout the night. She never slept, and neither did we, because each episode kept us awake too.

Today, she seems tired. Not sure if it is sleep deprivation or the medicine we are giving her, which is supposed to make her drowsy. Despite being tired, her seizures continue every few minutes today.

This is heart breaking. I don’t know what else I can do. [emoji20]. Does anyone have experience with seizures? I am hoping the frequency of the seizures dissipates and that she can go on living with us as before. She is 4 years old.

Four years ago I joined this forum to show off my girl. Now I desperately seek advise . Please.


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[LaManuka]

Orin2017, I am so very sorry that you are going through this, my heart goes out to all of you!

Unfortunately I have no particular advice to offer you, only my shared experience with a beloved cockatiel called Twinkle whom we lost to seizures a number of years ago now. It is frightening and utterly heartbreaking to watch, all the more so in such a young bird like Orin, and you have my every sympathy. She will be very tired from the seizures themselves, along with the lack of sleep and possibly the medication.

You are doing everything you possibly can for her, and I am sending every good wish and hopes for recovery to Orin and strength to all of you. You will all be in my prayers.

 

[Orin2017]

Orin2017, I am so very sorry that you are going through this, my heart goes out to all of you!

Unfortunately I have no particular advice to offer you, only my shared experience with a beloved cockatiel called Twinkle whom we lost to seizures a number of years ago now. It is frightening and utterly heartbreaking to watch, all the more so in such a young bird like Orin, and you have my every sympathy. She will be very tired from the seizures themselves, along with the lack of sleep and possibly the medication.

You are doing everything you possibly can for her, and I am sending every good wish and hopes for recovery to Orin and strength to all of you. You will all be in my prayers.

How long did it take Twinkle before the advent of the episodes and death?


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[LaManuka]

How long did it take Twinkle before the advent of the episodes and death?

Twinkle’s circumstances were likely different to Orin’s. Her seizure was brought on by heavy metal toxicity which was initially successfully treated with chelation therapy by our avian vet. We lost her about a year later to another massive seizure – she may have had other minor ones in between while we were at work or otherwise out of the house and did not witness. She was also rather older than Orin, we had her for about 10 years but she was an escapee from either an aviary or another household so we don’t know how old she was by the time we took her in.

 

[Orin2017]

I was(still am) hoping to get a full 20 years out of Orrin. She’s not yet four and already too young for this.


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[LaManuka]

Oh I hope you and your little sweetheart get that too! She is blessed to be so loved and cared for by such a dedicated parront like you. Sending many warm feathered cyber hugs to you!

 

[Laurasea]

Sorry to hear this. A good thing is an x ray and check for chronic metal toxicity. As chronic and acute metal poison can be a cause. I would also cheek seeds for powdery mold ect. Does he chew on paint, wall paper or any weird stuff? Have you sprayed house for bugs or used any insecticide?,
Washing all fruits and veggies for pesticides?,

I'm not familiar with diseases or heritage issues that cause this, I'm sure there are plenty that can. But mostly I know of toxicity/ poison issues causing this.

 

[Scott]

So sad to know Orin is seizing at young age. Has your vet offered a diagnosis or is more testing needed? If not comfortable with progress, a second opinion may be helpful. Found two threads with good analysis of parrot seizures: Scroll about 1/2 down: https://lafeber.com/vet/diagnosing-and-treating-avian-neurologic-disease/
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/seizures-in-birds

Hope you can swiftly find the cause and treat for return to normal life.

 

[Orin2017]

Sorry to hear this. A good thing is an x ray and check for chronic metal toxicity. As chronic and acute metal poison can be a cause. I would also cheek seeds for powdery mold ect. Does he chew on paint, wall paper or any weird stuff? Have you sprayed house for bugs or used any insecticide?,
Washing all fruits and veggies for pesticides?,

I'm not familiar with diseases or heritage issues that cause this, I'm sure there are plenty that can. But mostly I know of toxicity/ poison issues causing this.

No ex ray was taken. But the grapes and things are washed before we feed her. I’ll talk to the vet about the xray but labs were taken.


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[Orin2017]

So sad to know Orin is seizing at young age. Has your vet offered a diagnosis or is more testing needed? If not comfortable with progress, a second opinion may be helpful. Found two threads with good analysis of parrot seizures: Scroll about 1/2 down: https://lafeber.com/vet/diagnosing-and-treating-avian-neurologic-disease/
https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/seizures-in-birds

Hope you can swiftly find the cause and treat for return to normal life.

Thanks.


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[noodles123]

have you had liver levels tested via blood? An injured liver can lead to seizures and lacTUlose (NOT LACTOSE!!) can counter the impact if you know that liver is the cause. Sorry you are going through this.

 

[Orin2017]

Guys, out of desperation, I started experimenting with doses of CBD oil. Knowing it works on people, and dogs, and given that Orrin was pretty much having nonstop seizures with no improvement from the anti seizure medication, I was desperate for an improvement.

What happened? Orrin still has seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased. This is administering .1 to .3 ml in a bird syringe. Honey was added to decrease the bird’s fight against receiving meds. I’m using general CBD oil, 1,000 mg in a 3 oz bottle. I’m going to go to a place locally that conducts special blends of CBD oil and see about getting one specifically for anti seizure properties. This is all legal in Alaska, both CBD oil and marijuana.

I realize that this post is controversial. But I need to share what works and what doesn’t with you guys. Again, CBD oil didn’t stop the seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased after CBD oil administration.

When my avian vet returns to town, I will tell her all that has come to pass. Based upon the articles I just read, which was posted here in this thread, it sounds like IV diasapam would be the better route.


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[noodles123]

did you check the liver? If you never did blood, you need to be careful with oils, as high fat and high protein is hard on the liver..

 

[noodles123]

Guys, out of desperation, I started experimenting with doses of CBD oil. Knowing it works on people, and dogs, and given that Orrin was pretty much having nonstop seizures with no improvement from the anti seizure medication, I was desperate for an improvement.

What happened? Orrin still has seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased. This is administering .1 to .3 ml in a bird syringe. Honey was added to decrease the bird’s fight against receiving meds. I’m using general CBD oil, 1,000 mg in a 3 oz bottle. I’m going to go to a place locally that conducts special blends of CBD oil and see about getting one specifically for anti seizure properties. This is all legal in Alaska, both CBD oil and marijuana.

I realize that this post is controversial. But I need to share what works and what doesn’t with you guys. Again, CBD oil didn’t stop the seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased after CBD oil administration.

When my avian vet returns to town, I will tell her all that has come to pass. Based upon the articles I just read, which was posted here in this thread, it sounds like IV diasapam would be the better route.


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I'm sorry to add this, but honey is never recommended for parrots, due to the risk of botulism. Botulism is a nuerotoxin... Don't play around with that. https://mickaboo.org/newsletter/jan12/art6.2.html <-- seizures and botulism bacteria

 

[Orin2017]

Guys, out of desperation, I started experimenting with doses of CBD oil. Knowing it works on people, and dogs, and given that Orrin was pretty much having nonstop seizures with no improvement from the anti seizure medication, I was desperate for an improvement.

What happened? Orrin still has seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased. This is administering .1 to .3 ml in a bird syringe. Honey was added to decrease the bird’s fight against receiving meds. I’m using general CBD oil, 1,000 mg in a 3 oz bottle. I’m going to go to a place locally that conducts special blends of CBD oil and see about getting one specifically for anti seizure properties. This is all legal in Alaska, both CBD oil and marijuana.

I realize that this post is controversial. But I need to share what works and what doesn’t with you guys. Again, CBD oil didn’t stop the seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased after CBD oil administration.

When my avian vet returns to town, I will tell her all that has come to pass. Based upon the articles I just read, which was posted here in this thread, it sounds like IV diasapam would be the better route.


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I'm sorry to add this, but honey is never recommended for parrots, due to the risk of botulism. Botulism is a nuerotoxin... Don't play around with that. https://mickaboo.org/newsletter/jan12/art6.2.html <-- seizures and botulism bacteria

Lovely. Thanks.


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[Orin2017]

Guys, out of desperation, I started experimenting with doses of CBD oil. Knowing it works on people, and dogs, and given that Orrin was pretty much having nonstop seizures with no improvement from the anti seizure medication, I was desperate for an improvement.

What happened? Orrin still has seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased. This is administering .1 to .3 ml in a bird syringe. Honey was added to decrease the bird’s fight against receiving meds. I’m using general CBD oil, 1,000 mg in a 3 oz bottle. I’m going to go to a place locally that conducts special blends of CBD oil and see about getting one specifically for anti seizure properties. This is all legal in Alaska, both CBD oil and marijuana.

I realize that this post is controversial. But I need to share what works and what doesn’t with you guys. Again, CBD oil didn’t stop the seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased after CBD oil administration.

When my avian vet returns to town, I will tell her all that has come to pass. Based upon the articles I just read, which was posted here in this thread, it sounds like IV diasapam would be the better route.


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I'm sorry to add this, but honey is never recommended for parrots, due to the risk of botulism. Botulism is a nuerotoxin... Don't play around with that. https://mickaboo.org/newsletter/jan12/art6.2.html <-- seizures and botulism bacteria

I spoke to my avian vet today and asked about the use of honey to sweeten the cbd oil and the vet said it was okay so I am not going to worry about it. The vet also approved the use of cbd oil.


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[noodles123]

Guys, out of desperation, I started experimenting with doses of CBD oil. Knowing it works on people, and dogs, and given that Orrin was pretty much having nonstop seizures with no improvement from the anti seizure medication, I was desperate for an improvement.

What happened? Orrin still has seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased. This is administering .1 to .3 ml in a bird syringe. Honey was added to decrease the bird’s fight against receiving meds. I’m using general CBD oil, 1,000 mg in a 3 oz bottle. I’m going to go to a place locally that conducts special blends of CBD oil and see about getting one specifically for anti seizure properties. This is all legal in Alaska, both CBD oil and marijuana.

I realize that this post is controversial. But I need to share what works and what doesn’t with you guys. Again, CBD oil didn’t stop the seizures but the frequency of the seizures decreased after CBD oil administration.

When my avian vet returns to town, I will tell her all that has come to pass. Based upon the articles I just read, which was posted here in this thread, it sounds like IV diasapam would be the better route.


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I'm sorry to add this, but honey is never recommended for parrots, due to the risk of botulism. Botulism is a nuerotoxin... Don't play around with that. https://mickaboo.org/newsletter/jan12/art6.2.html <-- seizures and botulism bacteria

I spoke to my avian vet today and asked about the use of honey to sweeten the cbd oil and the vet said it was okay so I am not going to worry about it. The vet also approved the use of cbd oil.


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You do you- but you can look it up--> they can get botulism from consuming it and honey often contains high amounts if unpasteurized/raw (https://agriculture.vic.gov.au/biosecurity/animal-diseases/general-livestock-diseases/avian-botulism). That is why it's not recommended for children under 2...especially raw honey but even pasteurized. This is why you can't feed a kid pasteurized or raw honey until their immune system is fully developed. I would discontinue use.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/livestock/vet/facts/13-001.htm <-- avian reference from official source

https://www.allaboutparrots.com/can-parrots-eat-honey/#Can_You_Feed_Parrots_Honey
https://www.nj.gov/agriculture/divisions/ah/diseases/botulism.html
Chickens survive a lot more than parrots and here is a link about it in them- http://www.poultrydvm.com/condition/botulism
another (less academic) but parrot oriented site: https://www.parrotwebsite.com/can-parrots-eat-honey/

I'd want more info from him in terms of WHY he is saying it's okay-- data or research or something because everything I have read tells me it should be avoided. I am not a vet, but I'd be curious to hear his side.
I am not saying that caused the seizures, but it's not a risk I would be okay with continuing if it were my bird.

I'd also REALLY like to see his avian CBD data....I am a big supporter of CBD in many mammalian cases, but there is just a HUGGGGGE ball of wax when you get into birds.... the cbd quality, 3rd party testing, pesticides etc etc...If (without asking the source and about lab testing- 3rd party) he just said, "yes!" to your general/ unspecified CBD use, you should DEFINITELY be concerned about the level of thought this guy is putting into his statements, The CBD industry can be sketchy enough for mammals....let alone birds. I am not against CBD- but there are VAST differences among what is offered in terms of health and dangers for the consumer. Heavy metals and metal poisoning in humans can result from certain cbd processes etc etc, so for him to just say, "YEAH, THAT'S FINE" without thoroughly researching your exact brand etc, is crazy. I'm not saying this is a scientific/peer-reviewed website, but it touches on many of the issues that you could be dealing with- https://cbdclinicals.com/cbd-pesticides/
Another cites 70% of cbd products as having pesticide residuals and heavy metal therein..

Extracted CBD for parrots has almost no data behind it...Mammals are not birds and the consumption of extracted CBD is fairly new...CBD in marajuana and hemp has been around, but again, we are talking about a variety of chemical processes that go into all of this. For humans-- if you have a safe, 3rd party, organic company and don't buy from some weird vape shop, it's probably okay FOR YOU (or other mammals)..But show me the studies that say this is safe for birds...aside from this vet's "gut" instinct.

Humans eat avocados and there are a million benefits. Birds die if they eat them. Just because it's good for us (which depends a lot on the CBD product) doesn't mean it's good for them. I got really frustrated when I read this because you are trusting this person, but it doesn't sound like he gave you any info to back up what he said..

A true professional should make their judgements based upon science, not personal experience or "gut feelings". If someone refuses or chooses not to tell you "why", then ask again. If they have nothing to support those claims other than anecdotal evidence, move on. You need to do your own research here as well, because I have been told the wrong things by vets who see birds as well...Nearly deadly things (had I not done my own research and called around to other practices etc).

Avian vets are people too-- and many vets who see birds and call themselves that are not truly avain certified. You must still do your own fact checking. If I blindly trusted them, I would have medicated Noodles with a SERIOUS seizure drug on a daily basis for a "seizure disorder" that others do not believe she had. I suggest thinking carefully, along with your own research...Vets get tired and may have ideas about life expectancy (e.g., this bird is sick, it can't hurt) but you need to be aware of the research/science so that you can make informed decisions (with their input) but also based on questioning and research. Again-- ask for information...Don't just take everything at face-value..Saying it's safe may mean "short-term" if they already have a life expectancy mapped out for your bird. You must ask questions...They are not trained to voluntarily explain and when no one asks, that expectation of "do as I say" can get out of hand...Your vet may have a reason for it being safe for your bird , when they might not say it is safe for all birds...and if they won't explain or just speak in generalities, then I would be clear in my desires for peer-reviewed sources and seek an alternative if that is not immediately provided.

If no one every questions, it is very easy to get into the habit of doing what one "thinks" is best-- because many people just accept whatever. Make sure that "whatever" is backed by other avian vets/academic/peer-reviewed articles...Not just because XY and Z did it and their birds survived.

 

[Orin2017]

Noodles,

Thanks for your response and advise. The cbd oil was extracted locally. How? I don’t know if they used short path distillation or CO2 or what method was used. The place is called Hempire. They make custom blends for customers or sell general blends in marijuana stores. In Alaska, where I live, it’s all legal. I bought my cbd oil for Orrin a long time ago and never ended up using it until now. It’s roughly 1,000mg in a 3oz bottle. It comes with a dropper but I prefer to use a syringe, that way I can see exactly how many ml she’s getting per dose.

Is there data on using cbd oil? No. Is there dosing data? No, either. I suspect that in the future science will sort out these questions.

For now, I have a bird experiencing seizures all day and night long, one right after another. When this happens, my bird obviously suffers. She will not eat, drink and has lost weight even before the worse symptoms manifested. Now, the vet offered phenobarbital for my bird, since the previously prescribed medication (or concentration) wasn’t working at all. But I declined. I know what that will do to my bird and it will plumb drug her out to the point of sleeping. Not when I have something that is actually working and not knocking her out either to the point of not eating or drinking.

Today she had one seizure in the morning and it’s in the late afternoon. She’s eating and drinking like normal and back to being herself. I can only say that the improvement change correlates with the cbd oil and the oil itself I only sweetened with a minimal amount of honey so it wouldn’t be such a fight to get her to swallow it.

The vet is an avian vet, not merely a vet who knows how to clip feathers and file down claws. When I asked about the honey, she said there was no danger known to her. Not at the sort of amount used to sweeten a 3oz bottle of cbd oil.

Sorry to frustrate you. Perhaps you are right about the danger of honey. It’s a done deal for me now. Already used it.

Today I haven’t given her a dose of cbl oil because of her progress without it. But if she starts slipping back into seizure mode, I’ll give her .1ml of cbd oil. That’s a small amount of oil.



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[noodles123]

I didn't mean to scare you- I just was frustrated by the vet's response (given the fact that they likely didn't ask all of the details they would need to make that call- same with honey).


I totally get where you are coming from-- I have done stuff and then been like....oh...whoops....that could have been bad but wasn't.... or...well, Noodles, you made it!


I just feel like your vet needs to explain/prove rather than dolling out advice without details. My "gut" is that what was wrong was already there etc, and that the honey probably didn't impact the situation, but it could have (and without knowing more, even an avian vet couldn't say that for sure), so that is why I was irritated with the vet's very vague conclusion based on very little info. Not you. The thing is, that is why we pay vets (to go on more than their "gut"). It's just frustrating to me when someone with professional label/trusted certification acts TOO human, because you don't need a PHD to do that.

 

[Orin2017]

Well, I have to be honest. The benefit derived from CBD oil, while it worked at first, has stopped working. She is back to having practically non-stop seizures. The vet is going to order phenobarbital for her as a last resort. Otherwise, as painful as it is, it looks like we will have to put Orrin to sleep. I am VERY attached to this bird, so this hurts me deep inside. She had a life here, a routine, and I can’t imagine life without her.

By the way, the labwork indicated only that she is low on calcium.


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