Just the Worst Things...

[Thingamagigs]

Dogs don't do anything for you out of love, they do so due to thousands of years of specific domestication for temperament traits to suit the job at hand

I call BS on that!!!

People will anthropomorphise I've been a dog trainer for the majority of my working life. I have had to deal with people treating their dogs like human children for years. They don't understand their misinterpretation of their dogs behaviour causes the behavioural problems they hire me to fix.
You can have your illusions but it doesn't make the truth "BS".

If your theory were correct, then breeds who are less obedient just do not love their owners? lol And breeds like border collies love more than less obedient breeds? That doesn't really make sense now does it

 

[WharfRat]

So lets see........my last dog (that was never trained or given treats for doing "special" things) just did what she did due to all those big words you chose to use. My dog got treats yes, all my animals have over the years, but it was never for training, it was because I loved/appreciated them. I know without a doubt my ReaRea "loves" me to the best extent a parrot can. I also have no doubt my dogs have loved me as well............How in the Hell can you quantify "love" in an animal in a scientific sense?!??! LOVE is an emotion, it cannot be detected, measured or determined by anyone else but those involved, I don't care how many tests you run. Would you like to use science/genetics/heritage studies to explain my love for my wife??? I think not. "Love" is not a science, it is incapable of being measured in any form by science. You can posturize all you want with your wording but I ain't buying it, just like a lot of your parrot comments as well. I'd apologize, but it ain't there after your last comments to me. Why don't you take a step back, think about and realize how your comments/criticisms might actually affect others here and be a little more compassionate and positive other than taking a "I'm a dog trainer, I know what I'm talking about stance"

Tell me my ReaRea doesn't love me and then you'll really see PO'ed

 

[Thingamagigs]

I did not say animals do not love. Or that you do not love your animals. Or that love is measurable or whether it exists or not.
Nor are any of my opinions negative or meant in any kind of negative way.

What I did say (perhaps you misunderstood my meaning) is that whether they obey or not is not based on love and that it is a very common misinterpretation of animal behaviour. People also think that a dog with a wagging tail means a happy dog. A wagging tail denotes interest/attention or excitement, whether aggressive, fearful or in happy greeting. When people understand that they can have a much better relationship with their dogs

You are reading an awful lot of meaning into my words that just isn't there. I have not revisited the previous thread you mention because I could see where it was heading and its best to step out when emotions are clouding judgement. I try to use emotes to convey my tone ... but I can't help how an individual will read the way I write, I write plainly (and probably verbose as well ) and I don't intend on using "big words" it just comes from my particular life experience... just as your way of typing is affected by your own life experience.

This is a forum, its just words on a screen with no voice inflection, body language or facial expression to judge intent or meaning.
Everyone has different written mannerisms, sometimes they can be so at odds that civil communication is difficult to achieve if both or either party is prone to jumping to conclusions. I can accept your way of written communication without making a judgement as to your character or who you are as a person or how much compassion you have. I would ask for the same.
For all you know I volunteer my time in a nursing home during the week and in an animal shelter of weekends.

 

[WharfRat]

What you said was:

Dogs don't do anything for you out of love

then you reply with:

I did not say animals do not love.

So which is it?



Judgemental?? Yes, but only on your comments, no body language or inflections needed.

I'm 52 years young, I wasn't born yesterday and have a tad of experience with dogs (only German Shepherds), 2 reptiles and birds. All of my bird knowledge was learned/imparted to me from my breeder, she is extremely educated in birds and has the credentials to prove it.

I've actually made my "judgement" based on various comments by you in different threads, I know for a FACT that others share my opinion on your comments as well. Quit trying to be an "expert" and help people in a positive manner. My birds have a downside to having them and I have posted as much (with pics). I'll also add that all the negatives of having them does not alter the joy and love they bring with having one.

that whether they obey or not is not based on love

Again I say false, if an animal "loves" you, how apt are they to listen and comply as opposed to one that doesn't? Rea "loves" me, is capable of seemingly jealous emotions and responds in a very positive manner when I show her affection.

For all you know I volunteer my time in a nursing home during the week and in an animal shelter of weekends.

I doubt it, unless you do and prefer to lead an alter ego life here. To do that job would require compassion, empathy and kindness.

 

[Thingamagigs]

What you said was:

Dogs don't do anything for you out of love

then you reply with:

I did not say animals do not love.

So which is it?

Again, there is a problem here with your understanding of my words. A dogs obedience not being a direct result of love is not the same as dogs not loving at all. A person does not comply with their bosses wishes because they love him.

Judgemental?? Yes, but only on your comments, no body language or inflections needed.

Not just judgemental, but excessively combative and becoming downright offensive.

I'm 52 years young, I wasn't born yesterday and have a tad of experience with dogs (only German Shepherds), 2 reptiles and birds. All of my bird knowledge was learned/imparted to me from my breeder, she is extremely educated in birds and has the credentials to prove it.

I've actually made my "judgement" based on various comments by you in different threads, I know for a FACT that others share my opinion on your comments as well. Quit trying to be an "expert" and help people in a positive manner. My birds have a downside to having them and I have posted as much (with pics). I'll also add that all the negatives of having them does not alter the joy and love they bring with having one.

You have been on this forum longer than I have, I am certain you have formed close relationships with members here and have private chats, especially when someone has gotten under your skin. I don't doubt at all that is a FACT that others share your opinion. On top of that I know that some people don't like the way I write things. They are usually very surprised to meet me in person. Again, I'm probably as capable of changing that about myself as you are of changing the fact you are a bit of a hot head Do you see my point now?

I never said that the negatives of owning a bird took anything away from owning them. These assumptions are becoming rather out of hand. I never claimed to be an expert either The OP wanted to know "Just the worst things" thats what this thread was for. Even the most novice keeper may have a useful point or tip, from my point of view no one should be excluded from contributing and as far as I know, its not a forum rule that only experts should post?

that whether they obey or not is not based on love

Again I say false, if an animal "loves" you, how apt are they to listen and comply as opposed to one that doesn't? Rea "loves" me, is capable of seemingly jealous emotions and responds in a very positive manner when I show her affection.

Did you read the OPs question? It was regarding training/asking a bird to do something. If you read my response fully, you will also note that I said the better the bond you have with your bird the better it will respond.

For all you know I volunteer my time in a nursing home during the week and in an animal shelter of weekends.

I doubt it, unless you do and prefer to lead an alter ego life here. To do that job would require compassion, empathy and kindness.

I said what I did about volunteering because it was the truth, a little cheeky but I try to remain light hearted regardless of personal attacks.

I used to volunteer with the red cross to work afternoons in a nursing home. Doing anything from running small errands to take the pressure off nurses, to taking around afternoon tea or just sitting with those residents who rarely get visitors and having a chat.
I also volunteered with the RSPCA onsite training and rehabilitation. After that I ran my own fostering and rehabilitation system through the RSPCA, placing small breed dogs into foster homes where they could have appropriate care for their size, when the RSPCA facilities just could not cater for them as well as large breeds. Those needing serious rehabilitation stayed with me. I ran that on my own dollar for many years until my health wouldn't allow it.
I absolutely love dogs, they had been my entire life up until the point where I became too ill and could no longer do what I love. I never spent a moment of my life without a dog at the foot of my bed... until now... and it is rather devastating.
I used to spend sleepless nights handrearing sick baby puppies that the vet said would not survive the night. Crying all christmas eve until the dawn because I thought I would lose them that night. Only to proudly hand them to their new owners at 12 weeks old, healthy and happy and strong. Hours of washing out grass, burs and dirt from matted coats. Days spent reinstilling faith in dogs who had been so badly abused and neglected they cowered in their crate for months, never venturing further than a couple of meters to do their business.
I have fond memories of the dogs I have rehabilitated over the years, some cases which seemed impossible to others and earned me the reputation as someone who could turn even the most broken dogs life around. Some owners still keep in contact with me often sending out yearly hand written letters. I doubt any of them would describe me as lacking compassion, empathy or kindness.

 

[JerseyWendy]

My dogs (past & present) LOVE me.

There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it, and certainly NO scientific research needed, especially since I will hear NONE of it.

It really is THAT simple.

And no, I'm not close-minded either...I've just had and have the pleasure of having dogs in my life who have shown me more love and affection than many people are ever capable of. For that reason alone, I prefer most dogs over people.

End.Of.Story.

 

[Oedipussrex]

I've read descriptions of parrot owning being like living the rest of your life with a three year old and also that parrots don't act out of love even for those they love. Is this true? I think I'm getting cold feet without them being very cold (if that makes sense). I've never worried about these things before but all of a sudden it's got me doubting myself.

this is the original post (on the topic). and i think a serious misunderstanding has occurred somewhere along the way. Humanwings, it is true to a degree but it does not mean that a parrot does not love or will never show you love.

I don't think the capability of any animal to love was ever in question and it is not testable anyway. I think the initial point was that, when it comes to 'friendships' and altruistic relationships, companion parrots are generally more independent species and there are occasions where they will act on their own free will regardless of your requests, or will want to be certain that there is something better in it for them before they comply, and may even bite or harm their owner to make a point. >(Exactly like most toddlers i know -the odd tantrum doesn't mean all toddlers are devoid of emotion)

When defining animal behaviour we use the word altruism instead of 'friendship' or 'love' because we cannot quantify them. But we can quantify the amount of interaction animals have with another individual where they seemingly put another individual before themselves causing themselves a disadvantage. This is usually seen where the other individual will return the favor should they ever need it. Even if this is a clinical way of looking at it, isn't this pretty much an emotionless description of human friendships as well? Once a relationship is formed we put up with a fair bit yes, but you never intentionally become friends in the first place with someone who is mean to you or always takes things without giving back, and if someone hasn't returned something you lent them are you likely to lend them things repeatedly in the future?

Altruism has been exhibited in most social animals and the scientific definitions of these behaviours merely try to put interactions on a quantifiable scale, without compromising research through anthropomorphism. Not to deny the existence of emotions at all.

 

[HumanWings]

Ok guys I think we can all agree dogs are loving can we PLEASE get back to my questions? Any other input on that would be much appreciated.

 

[WharfRat]

My apologies to the OP (only) As I stated, I've made a few posts commenting on the "down side" of Macaws, and as stated, It is still worth it even then. Here are a couple of links to the negative:

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/27048-lessons-learned-then-reinforced.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/26222-macaw-damage.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/25844-bad-words.html

the good:

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/26303-rearea-last-night.html

 

[SandyBee]

Parrot Love,

Well all I know is I believe my parrot loves me.

Bosley will come to me and mo one else, will go in his cage for me and wants to be with me whenever possible. When I give him a treat he takes it gently and gives me coos and little purring noises.

On the other hand he couldn't care less about my hubby, same treat he willl grab and throw to the floor, I can pick it and give it to him and we will happily eat it.

Yes he loves differently than a dog or a cat or a human, he's a bird.
I think it's one of the more loyal and strongest bonds I have ever felt.

 

[NWQuakers]

Birds do love their people. My last few hours with Mark emphasized that in ways I can't describe. But that didn't mean she didn't go for blood when she had a mind to. And certain things I asked her to do just weren't gonna happen.

But she would do more for me than any other bird and most other companion animals, I've ever had. There was reciprocal altruism, trust, and love. None of that implies obedience though