In Need of Help on a Complete Behavioral Change

[JerseyWendy]

I want to add here that Mark (Birdman) has gone above and beyond helping countless members how to successfully and confidently handle their big macs, Amazons, and many others. He's gone as far as taken roadtrips to teach hands on. The results and the feedback has always been phenomenal.

 

[michaell089]

I have just read all Kalie's posts. Apparently it was a rescue bird and started to get calmer untill she kept forcing the bird out of the cage and force it to step-up. The bird once again has taken a turn for the worst. This is not a spoiled macaw syndrome case this is just a plain scared non trusting stressed out bird that is being forced to do stuff by somebody it does not yet trust.

Spoiled macaw syndrome is when you have a tame non stressed and trusting bird that is checking his boundaries and then when you let him do what he wants he gets spoiled and think he can do anything he wants.

I'm not here to fight with other parrot owners/trainers about what training method is best. I'm just trying to help people. In this case forcing the bird which is already in a state of mistrust and stress/fear this will only worsen his condition to the point it that it might start plucking again.

Please try my method, check out sites like barbara heidenreich's, parrot wizards youtube channel and anything else that has to do with clicker/positive reinforcement based training and try it out. You already tried forcing, now try this.

If you need any help I would even do skype sessions.

 

[michaell089]

Oh yes about birdman no doubt about it! I've read many, if not all of his posts the last couple of months and he's great and definitely knows what he is talking about but in this case with a neglected bird that just doesn't respond well to forcing I just don't think any more forcing will do the trick.

 

[Birdman666]

The thing is, there are birds that simply won't respond until you "make them" do it once or twice...

And this is why I disagree with these sorts of generalizations...

I couldn't find the "Excitement" thread, but in that we have photographic evidence of a greenwing macaw THAT HADN'T BEEN OUT OF HIS CAGE IN 12 YEARS, AND WOULD NOT STEP UP FOR ANYTHING OR ANYBODY...

I essentially had to tackle that bird with a towel, and drag him kicking, screaming and attempting to bite, and pry him away from his cage.

Ten to twenty minutes later, he was stepping up just fine, AND he was lying on his back in the palm of my hand, giving me kisses, and slipping me the tongue!

If I hadn't forced him to come out - HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONTENT TO FESTER IN THAT CAGE TIL HE DIED! Because he was afraid, and he didn't know the basics.

And once I got him OUT and he realized he wasn't going to die from it... and it was actually pleasant, I DIDN'T HAVE TO DRAG HIM OUT KICKING AND SCREAMING!!!

HE WANTED TO COME OUT! That's the real point here...

My own Red Lored Amazon ALSO was so badly cage bound and phobic that she had to be toweled and forced to interact with people, or she simply would not do it.... EVER!

It's a LAST RESORT, not the first thing you try, BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN IT'S NECESSARY, AND MORE HUMANE THAN LETTING THEM FESTER.

THIS BIRD SOUNDS LIKE IT IS PHOBIC TO ME. THESE ARE FEAR BASED SCREAMING AND BITING DISORDERS. THE WAY YOU DEAL WITH PHOBIAS IS TO DESENSITIZE THEM TO THE THINGS THAT CAUSE THE FEAR REACTION. GET THEM USED TO IT, THE PHOBIA DECREASES, AND THE BAD BEHAVIORS GO AWAY, OR GET SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED BECAUSE THEY BIRD GETS USED TO IT, AND IS NO LONGER AFRAID. THAT IS WHAT I THINK THE DYNAMIC IS HERE.

(Desensitization training is NOT to be confused with the technique some people use called "FLOODING." Flooding overwhelms a bird, and is not useful. Desensitization is a GRADUAL process, usually taking 2-6 weeks. And GRADUALLY OVER TIME gets the bird used to what it is afraid of by progressively exposing the bird to more and more, until the bird readily accepts, and no longer fears it. FLOODING, IN MY OPINION, ONLY CAUSES PANIC ATTACKS!)

A PHOBIC BIRD WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS AVOID OR ATTACK THE THING IT IS AFRAID OF. THAT'S BASIC "FIGHT OR FLIGHT." THE BIRD WILL NOT TAKE KINDLY TO THIS AT FIRST... THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE GIVEN.

BUT... THE ONLY WAY TO OVERCOME A FEAR IS TO CONFRONT IT.

I'm not saying this to argue with you, but you and I disagree on causation in this case. And the remedies are 180 degrees.

PLEASE. TRY BOTH. SEE IF THE BIRD RESPONDS TO ONE OR THE OTHER.

MY METHOD:

1. TRY SOMETHING!
2. IF IT DOESN'T WORK, TRY SOMETHING ELSE.
3. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, THEN KEEP TRYING UNTIL YOU FIND SOMETHING THAT THE BIRD RESPONDS TO.

They are pig headed and determined sometimes. So we have to be just as pig headed and determined.

 

[JerseyWendy]

.....

I couldn't find the "Excitement" thread, .......

Ask and you shall receive.

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/53118-excitement.html

 

[Anansi]

The diametrically opposed viewpoints over what caused this issue are ultimately good for your BG, Kalie. Only you have observed your macaw's behavior in person, so as you read both takes, you can decide which best applies to you and your situation. Forum discourse at its best.

 

[Birdman666]

Spoiled macaw syndrome is when you have a tame non stressed and trusting bird that is checking his boundaries and then when you let him do what he wants he gets spoiled and think he can do anything he wants.

BUT IT STARTS WITH 'THE BIRD GETS TO PICK AND CHOOSE WHETHER OR NOT HE "FEELS LIKE" COMPLYING WITH THE BOUNDARIES...'

I WOULD ARGUE THAT A BIRD WHO DOES NOT HAVE ANY BOUNDARIES IS MORE IN NEED OF HAVING THEM TAUGHT TO HIM AND ENFORCED.

NOT LESS.

NO SIR! WE DO NOT BITE!! Step up nice.

NO SIR! THAT'S TOO LOUD... !!

THE LONGER IS FESTERS, THE HARDER IT IS TO STOP!!!

 

[Birdman666]

the diametrically opposed viewpoints over what caused this issue are ultimately good for your bg, kalie. Only you have observed your macaw's behavior in person, so as you read both takes, you can decide which best applies to you and your situation. Forum discourse at its best.

exactly. NONE OF US ARE EXPERTS ON YOUR BIRD! I wish I could see it as it happened to see if I can pick out a trigger...

Now you have several points of view. Figure out if any of this works with your bird... Because that's what matters.

LESS LEARNING TAKES PLACE WHEN EVERYONE AGREES ON EVERYTHING ALL THE TIME.

Polite, respectful disagreements encourage free thinking, and progresses everyone's point of view.

Impolite disrespectful disagreements are just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Feel free to rip my points if you disagree, won't offend me in the slightest. That's why they call it a "free" country.

 

[JerseyWendy]

 

[michaell089]

The thing is, there are birds that simply won't respond until you "make them" do it once or twice...

And this is why I disagree with these sorts of generalizations...

I couldn't find the "Excitement" thread, but in that we have photographic evidence of a greenwing macaw THAT HADN'T BEEN OUT OF HIS CAGE IN 12 YEARS, AND WOULD NOT STEP UP FOR ANYTHING OR ANYBODY...

I essentially had to tackle that bird with a towel, and drag him kicking, screaming and attempting to bite, and pry him away from his cage.

Ten to twenty minutes later, he was stepping up just fine, AND he was lying on his back in the palm of my hand, giving me kisses, and slipping me the tongue!

If I hadn't forced him to come out - HE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONTENT TO FESTER IN THAT CAGE TIL HE DIED! Because he was afraid, and he didn't know the basics.

And once I got him OUT and he realized he wasn't going to die from it... and it was actually pleasant, I DIDN'T HAVE TO DRAG HIM OUT KICKING AND SCREAMING!!!

HE WANTED TO COME OUT! That's the real point here...

My own Red Lored Amazon ALSO was so badly cage bound and phobic that she had to be toweled and forced to interact with people, or she simply would not do it.... EVER!

It's a LAST RESORT, not the first thing you try, BUT THERE ARE TIMES WHEN IT'S NECESSARY, AND MORE HUMANE THAN LETTING THEM FESTER.

THIS BIRD SOUNDS LIKE IT IS PHOBIC TO ME. THESE ARE FEAR BASED SCREAMING AND BITING DISORDERS. THE WAY YOU DEAL WITH PHOBIAS IS TO DESENSITIZE THEM TO THE THINGS THAT CAUSE THE FEAR REACTION. GET THEM USED TO IT, THE PHOBIA DECREASES, AND THE BAD BEHAVIORS GO AWAY, OR GET SIGNIFICANTLY REDUCED BECAUSE THEY BIRD GETS USED TO IT, AND IS NO LONGER AFRAID. THAT IS WHAT I THINK THE DYNAMIC IS HERE.

(Desensitization training is NOT to be confused with the technique some people use called "FLOODING." Flooding overwhelms a bird, and is not useful. Desensitization is a GRADUAL process, usually taking 2-6 weeks. And GRADUALLY OVER TIME gets the bird used to what it is afraid of by progressively exposing the bird to more and more, until the bird readily accepts, and no longer fears it. FLOODING, IN MY OPINION, ONLY CAUSES PANIC ATTACKS!)

A PHOBIC BIRD WILL ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS AVOID OR ATTACK THE THING IT IS AFRAID OF. THAT'S BASIC "FIGHT OR FLIGHT." THE BIRD WILL NOT TAKE KINDLY TO THIS AT FIRST... THAT IS AN ABSOLUTE GIVEN.

BUT... THE ONLY WAY TO OVERCOME A FEAR IS TO CONFRONT IT.

I'm not saying this to argue with you, but you and I disagree on causation in this case. And the remedies are 180 degrees.

PLEASE. TRY BOTH. SEE IF THE BIRD RESPONDS TO ONE OR THE OTHER.

MY METHOD:

1. TRY SOMETHING!
2. IF IT DOESN'T WORK, TRY SOMETHING ELSE.
3. IF THAT DOESN'T WORK, THEN KEEP TRYING UNTIL YOU FIND SOMETHING THAT THE BIRD RESPONDS TO.

They are pig headed and determined sometimes. So we have to be just as pig headed and determined.

I truly agree with 95% of what you are saying here but don't you think you can also see forcing the bird out of his cage as flooding in this case? She is getting bitten by the bird so hard that it goes trough towels and still breaks the skin. If you use a chopstick and a clicker you could, without any fear of getting bitten, and without forcing the bird or maybe even flooding because he is so phobic get him out of the cage. It will be voluntarily, you make the bird feel good about himself because it was his own choice and the owner doesn't flood him with feelings of fear of getting bitten which will also make the bird more anxious. I know in some cases forcing the bird get over a certain phobia works but for some reason this bird is definitely not having it

I really think she should try it with the chopstick and clicker.. this will give the bird more trust/respect in Kalie and Kalie can start trusting the bird. It will take away fear from both the bird and Kalie which I think is a good start for now since they are both not happy with eachother. And then from there on gradually set boundaries and make him abide by them. If the bird starts testing those boundaries later on she at least doesn't have to constantly worry about being bitten to the bone without using towels! :09:


Btw nice forum! lots of great feedback

 

[Birdman666]

No. I don't consider that flooding. Though I suppose it is by BARBARA's definition of Flooding. Ken Globus and I have both gone round and round with her on this one. WE BOTH DISAGREE ON WHAT CONSTITUTES FLOODING. SO DOES SAM FOSTER.
Barbara's right! We're wrong, and we're twice as wrong because in her opinion none of us should be advocating what we advocate. (Despite the fact that it is just as effective, and/or actually works BETTER than some of the stuff she's advocating sometimes.) I am much, much closer to what Ken does than what Barbara does, BUT I'VE USED BOTH! I've also used a lot of SAM FOSTER'S behaviorist methods, WHICH I LOVE, LOVE, LOVE!!! So, my biggest (human) influences have probably been Ken and Sam. But MOSTLY the birds themselves. THIS IS AN AREA WHERE BARBARA AND I VEHEMENTLY DISAGREE... "WHAT CONSTITUTES FLOODING." I AM AN OLD SCHOOL PARROT TRAINER, AND SHE AND I ARE 180 DEGREES APART ON A FEW POINTS. THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

HER WHOLE THEORY ABOUT DAMAGING A BIRD'S PSYCHE BY TOWELING THEM, AND MAKING THEM DO THINGS THEY DON'T NECESSARILY WANT TO DO, ETC... NO, SORRY, DON'T AGREE. NOT AT ALL. SOME OF THIS STUFF IS JUST MORE "TOUCHIE FEELIE" AND "WARM AND FUZZIE" THAN ACCURATE, IN MY PERSONAL OPINION. BARBARA'S METHODS SOMETIMES WORK WONDERS, AND SOMETIMES DON'T WORK AT ALL, AGAIN, IN MY OPINION... (AND OTHER FOLKS -INCLUDING BARBARA - TRUST ME WE'VE MET) THINK MY METHODS ARE BARBARIC AT TIMES... IN FACT, I KNOW BARBARA HAS USED KEN AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHAT NOT TO DO, AND I'M PRETTY SURE THERE WAS A WHOLE SERIES OF ARTICLES I PENNED IN THE OLD PARROT TALK DAYS THAT SHE TOOK EXCEPTION TO, AS AN EXAMPLE OF WRONG HEADED THINKING. SO CONSIDER THE SOURCE. INTELLIGENT MINDS CAN DISAGREE. EXPLAIN THEN, WHY MY BIRDS ARE UBER BONDED TO ME, AND ACTIVELY SEEK ME OUT, IF I HAVE DAMAGED THEM SO MUCH PSYCHOLOGICALLY OVER THE YEARS...

AGAIN, THAT "UNHANDLEABLE" GREENWING WAS GIVING ME FRENCHIES, TEN MINUTES AFTER I TACKLED HIM! IS THAT BECAUSE I'VE FLOODED HIM SO BADLY THAT HE'S TRAUMATIZED... ?! IT JUST DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME.

HOW ELSE DO YOU GROOM THEM?! VETS TOWEL THE BIRDS TO EXAMINE THEM, ARE THEY DAMAGING THE BIRD PSYCHOLOGICALLY... OR ARE THEY ACTUALLY HELPING THEM.

HEY, I DON'T AGREE WITH MATTIE SUE ON THE "HEIGHT DOMINANCE" ISSUE EITHER, BUT MOST OF MATTIE'S STUFF WORKS...

I ADVOCATE WHAT I BELIEVE WORKS. DO WHAT YOU THINK IS RIGHT. SIFT THROUGH EVERYTHING AND FORM YOUR OWN OPINIONS.

IN THIS CASE:

I see a phobic bird that is fear biting.

I also see a phobic bird that is alarm calling when ever it is startled and/or someone unfamiliar enters the room.

The phobias are what is preventing the bonding from taking place. Helping the bird overcome the phobia should/will help establish the bond.

That's my READ on this one. But it's only an educated guess, since I have not personally seen the interactions, I've only heard a description of the behaviors. There may be an entirely different dynamic at play, if you're there in the room with the bird, and see reactions, and posturing. With ZERO experience with this birds particular mannerisms, I can only give an educated guess.

Back when I actually did training workshops, I had the bird and the owner in front of me, and I could actually OBSERVE the interactions, and reactions, and 99 times out of 100 there was a pretty clear AH-HAH moment. The bird was reacting to something...

 

[Birdman666]

Progressive desensitization is NOT flooding. It's the gradual exposure and acceptance of more and more, until the bird simply accepts this as something that is not going to cause harm.

The bird doesn't GIVE UP because it's afraid of what will happen if it doesn't. IT GIVES UP FIGHTING BECAUSE IT IS NO LONGER AFRAID OF SOMETHING THAT USED TO SCARE IT TO DEATH.

This is part of our definition of "normal" now.

THAT is the concept.

STARTLE TRAINING for example. First time you expose the bird to a loud noise he flies off in terror, and freaks. Exposed to the same noise, and the same noise amplified ten times over, over the period of say six weeks, you gradually get to the point where you could set a CANNON off in front of the bird, and they won't react.

(I had some IDIOT think it was funny to throw lit firecrackers at my feet when I had my FULLY FLIGHTED amazon out in public. SHE'S STARTLE TRAINED. All she did was look at me.) What do you think would have happened if she wasn't startle trained?! WAS THIS A CRUEL THING TO HAVE DONE TO HER. BARBARA SAYS IT WAS "FLOODING" AND "WRONG!"

I THINK THERE WERE MANY OCCASIONS WHERE IT JUST MAY HAVE SAVED HER LIFE...

FLOODING to me, is where you take the opposite approach. SET A CANNON OFF NEXT TO THE BIRD... DELIBERATELY FREAKING THEM OUT OVER AND OVER AGAIN... They generally don't get used to the cannon going off. They just get stressed to the Nth degree. Good way to make the bird a nervous wreck...

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: My sweet Sallybird had been beaten by her former owner by brooms, and dowel perches. The sight of any of those things caused her to go into full on two hour panic attacks.

I HAD TO COVER HER CAGE BEFORE SWEEPING UP!

So, what did I do?

I kept the broom outside on the balcony, where she could see it, but could also see that there was a wall between her and IT... FOR ABOUT TWO WEEKS.

Then I moved it inside, and left it up against the opposite wall. Made her nervous for a few hours, but she gradually calmed down.

Then I moved it a few feet closer to her cage, about a week later.

Then I gradually started using it in front of her, and left it LEANING UP AGAINST HER CAGE... with her door open. After a few days of this, she came out, and attacked it. Chewed on it. Knocked it over. And EVENTUALLY FIGURED OUT THAT IT WAS THE PERSON USING IT, NOT THE OBJECT ITSELF THAT HAD HURT HER.

Now, she sits on my shoulder when I sweep up the bird room.

FLOODING?! I THINK NOT!!!