I ask for help in the treatment of African parrot

[ChristaNL]

This OP is in Russia and has limited resources, and is now unfortunately down to ordering her own medications...She's gotten more helpful and accurate information from out members here than the vets she has taken her bird to...

Exactly!
We are a lot closer (miles-wise, same continent) and sometimes the university has contacts they can use (very international here)- that is one of the reasons I reached out in the first place. You never know.

There is always a chance aspergillosis returns- you know that as well as anyone (esp. if the did not get the dosage right etc.)

This is not what I would say to her-> just relaying their thoughts about this.
(OP phoned them but they got lost in misunderstandings, so I just passed the message on.)


Is she really cant get any probiotoics at all I could always try to send some over, that kind of things. (I've been looking for them already.)
LOL nobody here can order their own medicines- its all prescription before you can go to the pharmacy anyway.

I do not mean to confuse anybody- just thought it might be nice if some actual real live CAV's could take a small peek and maybe find something we overlooked.


===
Yes, I 've read this tread (several times)
and I really get it your are doing your best to help them.
(My english is limited, my brain a lot less )


I never said " stop with the nebulizer", only asked it she saw any improvement.
I really, really keeping my fingers crossed for them!

 

[EllenD]

It's my understanding that the bird has been on Probiotics this entire time, she was able to order those...

I didn't clearly state what I meant about the Aspergilliosis...It's my understanding that the first vet who originally diagnosed the illness as that either did not tests and just "guessed", or did run the tests and got a false-positive, as another vet in Moscow was sent samples and the test was run and repeated, and the bird was found to be negative for it long ago, and several times since...There were also other wrong diagnoses made, as this bird has been on many, many antibiotics, anti-fungals, etc., some for very long periods of time, with no relief at all in the breathing difficulties, wheezing, coughing, etc...However, all medications to the best of my knowledge have been given either orally or by injection, which with birds are very inefficient as treatments for URI's, regardless of their cause, due to their complex respiratory system...That's why trying a Nebulization schedule with a broad-spectrum antibiotic that targets respiratory tissue/air sac tissue, like Tylosin does, is a great idea at this point...

The other reason I suggested that they try this is because IF the Nebulizer treatments with the Tylosin are going to be effective, she'll know very quickly...Typically when we Nebulize birds with URI's or Lung Infections/bacterial Pneumonia with Tylosin, they show pretty drastic, noticeable improvement after just a few days of treatment...The Tylosin targets the specific tissue involved, and it is permeable to the air sacs when Nebulized, so she should see at least some relief in the symptoms within a few days of doing the regular treatments with it...

My biggest fear at this point is that this poor bird has so much scar tissue throughout his respiratory system, and even possible damage to his air sacs, that he's always going to have some serious breathing issues..I hope I'm wrong on this, but he's been sick for so long that I almost have to assume that part of the problem is now permanent damage/scar tissue throughout the respiratory system, as if this was still an active bacterial or fungal infection, I would think the bird would have succumb to the illness, or at the very least be in extremely bad shape, with substantial weight loss, etc...I don't really know what his overall condition is as of right now, he is one tough bird, that's for sure....

 

[Lidia]

Hello ! Thank you very much that you have me, I have someone to write and ask. I understand that it's difficult to diagnose if you do not see a bird, I called a German veterinarian who was going to contact, but he was also complicated with a diagnosis. It's just that he's so dear to me and I'm ready for everything for him. I uploaded the video, it's the first 20 seconds, then I had to cover the box so that my parrot is calmed down.
[ame="https://youtu.be/odJjbZqmegg"]Using Tylosin with a Nebulizer - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Scott]

Looks like you built a nice nebulizer, Lidia. I just wish you had better support and a definite diagnosis. Living in or near Moscow, you should have access to many vets, but I wonder if another major city might have avian specialists? If so, would it be possible to travel with Jaquo?

 

[EllenD]

Great Nebulizer set-up...How is he handling the treatments? Did he settle-in and relax after a while? That's usually what happens with most birds I've Nebulized, they are very frantic at first, even before the treatment is started, just from being inside of the box. Then usually after a few minutes or so they settle-down and even seem to get comfortable...I've only seen a few birds that literally went crazy inside of the box and started thrashing around and just wouldn't calm down, and doing things as you did like covering the box with a towel/blanket, putting the Nebulizer unit in a dark, quiet room and just sitting right next to the bird during the treatment, etc. usually will settle them down...Be sure to do the treatments every single day, don't skip a day, as this type of antibiotic treatment has to be handled exactly the same way as giving him oral antibiotics, you can't skip a treatment. However, as I already mentioned, if he does become very upset or goes crazy during at any point during a treatment it's best to just stop, get him out and comfort him for a while, and then after he calms down then go ahead and start again; it's better to give him little breaks if he becomes very upset or freaked-out, as I'm sure you know that stress is very bad for the health of a bird, both physical and psychological, but for a bird that is already ill, stress is so much worse, it can actually cause a sudden, acute rise in their blood pressure and heart rate, and this can lead to other problems...especially for a bird with an upper respiratory or lung illness. You don't want to stress or complicate his breathing any more than it already is...Just be sure to do your best to finish the treatment after he calms down. If you have to take many breaks throughout a single treatment then that's fine; Nebulization isn't something where it won't be effective if a treatment isn't done all at one time. Every time he breathes-in the fog, the medication is getting directly in to the infected tissues, so it's much more about the amount of the Tylosin he breathes-in and not the amount of time it takes for him to accomplish this...

Let us know how he's doing and how the treatments are going...I really, really hope that this results in him showing some improvement. If it does, then you'll know for sure that he's got some kind of infection that is Bacterial in nature, and that you just need to keep doing the treatments...That's a horribly backwards way of getting a proper diagnosis, but after what you've already been through with trying to get a diagnosis and all of the meds he's already taken, if this works then it doesn't matter how it happened...

Be sure to keep giving him the probiotics throughout the Nebulizer treatments and then for some-time after you finish them, as not only will they replenish the normal, healthy bacteria that the Tylosin will eliminate throughout his Gastrointestinal Tract, but also the stress from the Nebulizer treatments and the stress of him just being sick will also effect his GI Tract greatly, and the probiotics will help to keep his GI Tract settled, help to eliminate any inflammation, and hopefully keep his appetite up, as he needs all the nutrition he can get to keep his body strong and his immune system fighting..

Poor little boy has been through so much, he has to be the strongest, most stubborn, hard-fighting bird I've ever encountered! He definitely wants to live, that's for sure...And we also need to commend you as his parront, because I don't know many bird-owners, even those that absolutely love their birds to death, who would have gone to the lengths to help their birds that you have. Just the amount of time this has gone on, the many different vets that you've communicated with, the endless medications, treatments, tests, etc. that you taken him for, the constant care you've provided him, not to mention the amount of money you must have spent by now...I'm thinking about both of you and sending positive-energy your way, just knowing that this will be the treatment that finally makes him well again...

 

[Anansi]

Great job on the nebulizer box! And I'd also like to cosign on what Ellen said about how amazing you've been in doing everything that you have for your bird. He is definitely LOVED!

I don't have anything to add to Ellen's phenomenal advice. Just want to let you know that many of us have been watching this thread, and that we are rooting hard for your feathered boy. He's been through so much, and I'm hoping this is the answer he's been waiting for.

 

[Lidia]

Hello ! Thank you for your support, because it's very important! Ellen, after your words, I even burst into tears, thank you very much! Yes, it was the first time, I had to pull it out, rest it and continue the treatment again. Today for the fourth time I give him a medicine through a nebulizer, I'm sitting side by side and I sing songs to him, so it seems that it's easier. I gave the dosage you wrote to my veterinarian, and our doctor first proposed 2 ml of tylosin to 10 ml of a physical solution, I told her that you wrote and she offered 2 ml for 8ml of a physical solution, it turns out 1/4, recommended doing procedure 15 minutes and so our doctor said about 10-14 days. Again, it's sad that we are experiencing, but there is no other way out. Probiotics I give every day, because sometimes he eats well, and sometimes not very.
I really hope that we will cure this unknown disease!

 

[Lidia]

Hello !
I want to describe our history from the beginning, so that it would be possible to create a general and more accurate picture.
For the new year of 2018, my parrot began to sneeze and a weak wheezing appeared in the nose.
Before, I never contacted veterinarians, as I communicated with our parrot seller (she has been engaged in parrots and birds for 30 years) advised me to give the parrot chamomile flowers with honey, warm it under a blue lamp, and wash my nose with a 0.9% sodium chloride solution or chamomile. So I did, but it did not help and it seemed that he began to sneeze less, but then came back again. as well as the faeces with a lot of water changed and plucked feathers on the tummy.
* And in February I turned to the first veterinarian, she worked with us for two months, did the examination and diagnostics.
1) X-ray in two projections
2) Flushing from the goiter for seeding
3) General blood test
4) Biochemical blood test
5) Feces for protozoa
6) Faeces on Giardia lamblia spp. (PCR) and Cryptosporidium spp

Based on the results of the diagnosis, reduced calcium and phosphorus were detected, and on the basis of X-rays, aspergillosis was diagnosed and there was inflammation in the abdominal cavity.
(from what is inflammation and what exactly is inflamed and how to diagnose no one knows)
of the appointments:
"Voriconazole" 10mg 2 times a day

A week later, they added
Doxycycline 25mg once a day (21 days)
Nystatin 250,000 2 times a day (14 days)
Vitamin "Vinks" 15 drops per drinker + calcium gluconate 4 ml. + 100m of water.
Inhalation with an inhaler (sodium chloride 0.9%) to start 5-10 minutes, if well tolerated, then we can increase to 15 minutes
Tobramycin (eye drops) in both nostrils 2 times a day for 14 days. (stopped dripping on the third day, because it was very scratched (half a night).

+

To this added "Karsil" for the liver and useful bacteria. (I myself added)

After treatment, nothing has changed, but only worse, the feces have become liquid. (diarrhea)

After some time
Have appointed "Metronidazolum"
gave within 5 days.
After
Amoxicillab Amoxicillin + Clavulanic acid 250 mg dosage ¼ tablets 2 times a day 7days
I'm terribly scared just to randomly give medication without an accurate diagnosis, I've read a lot of history where the birds died because of these medicines.
Our veterinarian said that she could not help and asked to find another doctor.
Afterwards I went to different veterinarians and called other cities and handed over to other laboratories feces, but everyone answered that it was difficult to diagnose.
The ornithologist and leading veterinarian of the Moscow zoo also looked and denied the diagnosed Aspergillosis but could not help.
We found a new veterinarian in our city, I had high hopes for her, since she works closely with ornithologist Valentin Kozlitin. (https://vkdoc.ru/)


On the examination many times brought feces. (there are pictures and negatives from a microscope)
She prescribed us nystatin 250 ½ tablets twice a day + bytril 2.5% 0.2 ml twice a day and so for 10 days.
(I was constantly worried about the fact that he sneezes and whistles in the nose, and the doctor was worried about more inflammation in the abdomen and bad feces), although it seemed to me connected, that is, there was a sneeze and a whistle and after that a secondary infection appeared.
Again there was a need to re-pass the diagnosis and have already decided to do an x-ray with barium + blood (Biochemical and general blood test)

At that time, the whistling in the nose and sneezing are present, and also the breathing became heavy
Have made this painful inspection which lasted 10 hours, the results of a blood have come and again only the calcium is lowered.
https://ibb.co/eMMRpo
On the X-ray, no one could read, although different doctors looked, there is inflammation in the abdominal cavity and darkening.
Have handed over feces on ornithosis, the results have arrived, negatively.
Still drank "Enterofuril" in liquid form.
After "Fegtal 150mg" (against worms) 1/5 tablet for three days in a row.

And in July, appointed "Tylosin 50" through the nebulizer 2 ml in 8 ml of the solution for 15 minutes and so two weeks.
Now we have finished tylosin, but unfortunately the whistling in the nose and sneezing have not gone away and the feces are bad.
I give now probiotics.
I want to say that it's very hard from the fact that I do not know how to help him, I tried all the medicines, antimicrobial and antifungal, but it all turned out to be wrong.
Very much I am afraid, that can become worse ...
I'm afraid!

Thank you for reading ... .it is our medical history .. for today

 

[ChristaNL]

Thank you for making this great and concise list.
It reads a lot clearer.

I am so sorry your bird is still not feeling well.
Is she still eating like she alway did?
(I know you are giving the probiotics now, but I mean her normal food)
Is she happy or miserable? Does she want to play, talk etc.?

You really love your bird, she is lucky to have you!

 

[Lidia]

Yes, he plays and sings, I do not let him relax, I force him to fly and run after him, certainly not as before, I feel that it's hard for him, I just understand that parrots do their best not to show that they are ill.
It feeds normally, I try to feed different goodies.

 

[Lidia]

Hello to all!
So much time has passed, but I return to this subject again, because it is not complete����
And I would like to write that everything is fine, but alas, no. The bird sneezes and whistles (whistles from the nose), and there are also streams from the nose.
For a long time, we rinsed the nose with sodium chlorine 0.9% (physical solution)
We live in Krasnodar, it is the south of Russia, because no one could solve the diagnosis.
The plans were a trip to Moscow, to that doctor, who advised us a doctor at the Moscow Zoo.
We flew in and received an appointment; what the doctor looked took tests:
1) This is a complete blood count (clinical)
2) biochemistry (biochemical blood test)
3) X-ray in two projections
4) when using sdma (new analysis)
5) watched choanas
The next day, we got the test results; on these results, everything is normal, except for the liver, they are slightly higher
indicators. (appointed Heptral (Heptral) month to drink)
The doctor said that he was excluded aspergillosis, so Vorikonazol was not needed. But, but he finds it difficult to make a diagnosis from the fact that the bird sneezes and sniffs, he assumes that it is a blue pus wand
Said that you can try to treat with other antibiotics called Pipercillin and Ticarcillin
And again, these drugs are not in Russia, you need to order from Europe or the United States ���� (those selling similar products to cause gout in birds)
The main problem today is how I can confirm or disprove this disease, I can not find any research on the treatment of Pine Pus in parrots.
Our doctor said that only try can be treated. And I'm afraid to give a strong antibiotic again, and suddenly nothing!
Please, friends, if you suddenly encounter such an article about a blue pus bacillus, please send me. (that's what I found:
https://www.thebirdclinic.com/zosyn-antibiotic-piperacil-by-dr-nemetz.html
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28644086

Thanks so much for reading our story.

 

[Scott]

Welcome back, I am happy to know Jaquo is doing reasonably well. A second opinion would normally help decide the course of treatment, but that appears limited and you probably saw one of the best avian vets available.

Not familiar with Piperacillin, but Dr. Nemetz is a well known avian specialist in California. Perhaps you could forward Jaquo's history and correspond with him?

 

[Lidia]

Hello, Scott!
Thank you for not forgetting.
And there is a site or mail of Dr. Nemetz, I will definitely describe our situation.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Hi Lidia...

I just saw this post and read EVERY page and every ones response. You are an AMAZING parront! I feel so bad for your little feathered friend. He has gone thru so much problems and yet he keeps on fighting!

I am at a loss that no one over there can give you a definite prognosis and treatment for your guy. I have nothing to offer you. You have made a lot of friends on this great forum who sincerely want to help and get your guy well again.
Please don't feel defeated! You are doing extremely well and doing everything possible for him.
Please keep us updated! And my prayers are going out for a swift recovery.


jim

 

[Flboy]

Hello, Scott!
Thank you for not forgetting.
And there is a site or mail of Dr. Nemetz, I will definitely describe our situation.

Here you go.
https://www.thebirdclinic.com/

 

[Lidia]

Hello, Scott!
Thank you for not forgetting.
And there is a site or mail of Dr. Nemetz, I will definitely describe our situation.

Here you go.
https://www.thebirdclinic.com/

Oh, yes this is exactly the site where I took the information on the use of piperacillin here.
But there is no mail where you could throw a description of the problem, it will be very difficult to make it from Russia

 

[Lidia]

Hi Lidia...

I just saw this post and read EVERY page and every ones response. You are an AMAZING parront! I feel so bad for your little feathered friend. He has gone thru so much problems and yet he keeps on fighting!

I am at a loss that no one over there can give you a definite prognosis and treatment for your guy. I have nothing to offer you. You have made a lot of friends on this great forum who sincerely want to help and get your guy well again.
Please don't feel defeated! You are doing extremely well and doing everything possible for him.
Please keep us updated! And my prayers are going out for a swift recovery.


jim

thanks for the support, very nice

 

[Scott]

Hello, Scott!
Thank you for not forgetting.
And there is a site or mail of Dr. Nemetz, I will definitely describe our situation.

Here you go.
https://www.thebirdclinic.com/

Oh, yes this is exactly the site where I took the information on the use of piperacillin here.
But there is no mail where you could throw a description of the problem, it will be very difficult to make it from Russia

Found two likely email addresses, look for a PM from me!