hybrid cockatoo

[Ratzy]

I apologized to the OP it seems like I make a inappropriate comment.
In response to cross breeding
I am very new so after reading and asking around it seems like it's be a while before a think about getting another bird because we don't want to loss our family pet to another cockatoo.
I am not a breeder I just want to make our JOEY happy.

But If it happens in the wild why not?
It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol

It only happens in the wild on rare occasions, and then the offspring don't usually survive once they leave the nest, let alone into adulthood.
If you aren't a breeder and don't have any previous experience, I wouldn't suggest you breed your bird. Especially a cockatoo. And especially hybridising.

Opinions are very strong here about hybridising parrots.

 

[jackc80]

This is a very nice pomelos crested cockatoo, very rare.

 

[suebee]

I apologized to the OP it seems like I make a inappropriate comment.
In response to cross breeding
I am very new so after reading and asking around it seems like it's be a while before a think about getting another bird because we don't want to loss our family pet to another cockatoo.
I am not a breeder I just want to make our JOEY happy.

But If it happens in the wild why not?
It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol

there are enough birds out there, without hobby breeders, i have no idea if cross breeding is good or bad, my take on this is, these birds live for so dam long! and it kinda scares me to think if these birds end up in an unlucky situtation, how long will it live in misery

as for wild caught birds grrrrrr!!!!

 

[Amber]

Ever read the article about the cockatiel and rosebreasted cockatoo that produce live offspring? Mobrellas are not as uncommon as I'd like.

It's like macaw hybrids but worse.... doesn't even produce pretty colors. I know a lazy crappy breeder right now who's got a citron with an elenora....

I'm not a fan of hybrids, but on the macaws, some macaw hybrids are better suited to family/domestic life then the parent species, in particular the Catalina Macaw (Blue-and-yellow Macaw x Scarlet Macaw) Seems to be regarded as better adapted to pet life then either of it's parents.

The other argument (on ALL species) against is preservation of species and individual genepools. I think this is important, even if hybrid breeding happens, that we keep pure lines to ensure the ongoing survival of the original species. With hybrids this becomes difficult (as shown by this thread!) as some hybrids can easily be mistaken for one of the parent species, or even a DIFFERENT species, and bred into that line, with the offspring marketed as 'purebred' when they are not, sold, and allowed to spread the genes of a different species amongst another. not good. Sometimes a bird can be as low as 5% or less of another species and it can be impossible to tell. It is arguable that because the phenotype is identical to a pure (for argument sake we'll assume no 'throwbacks' to the foreign species) it doesn't matter. But thats another debate for another time.

Of course, in reality even if we preserve these species in captivity, whats the chance of any of them seeing the wild again, even if we restore habitat? In some peoples opinions that would make the above null and void, as they would think we should instead focus on breeding 'ideal pets' to avoid birds being ditched at rescues etc, as they are going to be captive, purebred or not, so it doesn't matter. I don't agree with this point on ethical grounds, but it is out there, and it is a valid one if you think it over for awhile. Birds more adapted to captivity is a plus. Their is one rescue with a group of catalinas that have been given free reign of an aviary and they note that the offspring even a few generations in make better, calmer, less aggressive pets then most 'pure' macaws. So food for thought I guess.

Birds prefer mates similar to them! A avairy of jendays and suns will almost always pair off naturally into jen x jens and sun x sun mates.

As for wild occurrences, it DOES happen, but ONLY when the species natural range overlaps, and even then it is rare! The gallah and little corella have an overlap of range where my parents place is. They frequently interbreed, the offspring THRIVE and are fertile. Almost all of the gallahs have a small % of corella dna and vice versa as a result. The species may even 'combine' in that area. it's a natural thing. What's not natural is taking two birds of different species and forcing them to breed by locking them in an aviary together. I understand it does happen by accident sometimes, and they bond, and that is ok. But to deliberately breed hybrids is not fair on the parents, or the offspring, who often show conflicting traits, such as some lovebird hybrids who's parents nest naturally at different times. With conflicting biological rhythms they can become miserable birds. All thanks to irresponsible breeding. Nice. Good going. We as humans are pretty horrible sometimes.

What I'm trying to say is taking two birds that wouldn't even have contact in the wild due to different ranges and forcing them to breed is not ideal in the slightest. If their is an overlap of range naturally and hybrids occur naturally and are documented to be healthy happy birds, maybe, but still not ideal. Compromising a birds happiness for 'designer pets' is not cool, ever.

More on natural macaws near the end of this list http://animal-world.com/encyclo/birds/macaws/HybridMacaws.php

 

[Amber]

Camelot & other Hybrid Macaws Is a interesting link on this one.

Hybrid macaws and some other species have been documented in the wild when ranges overlap, but not at a high enough rate to justify it in captivity IMHO. It's different for wild birds with all the choice in the world to choose each other, its another to force two into a cage together to force them to bond with the intention of getting offspring. That can go for both breeding hybrids and pure. birds shouldn't be forced to bond, ever. If they don't like a mate, locking them together to force them to go with their instincts to breed is cruel.


EDIT

It's like saying a person who white can only marry white person.lol

Racism aside, not really, it's more like saying a person can't marry a monkey.

We are all homosapiens, we have variation in skin and eye colour, features, etc, but we are the same species. These birds are related species, yes, but they are different species. Like people and chimps. Or donkeys and horses.

(We notice the differences between individuals of our species so easily because things like facial recognition are hardwired into us. So are other animals to their species. For example, to a blue and gold macaw, all blue and golds are just as individual as we seem to each other. Some are lighter, darker, larger, smaller, bigger beaks, bigger feet, smaller eyes, etc. They are hardwired to notice those differences so they can identify individuals within their flock. We could never pick out an individual in that flock without much training! but we can pick out individual people no issues)

EDIT AGAIN

Back on topic, that in no way looks like a pure citron to me. But at this point it doesn't matter, he's alive and all he needs is a caring loving home, regardless of his genetic makeup. I'm assuming he's the OPs? If so, who cares what he is, just don't breed him until you have a definite I.D on him, but be sure to love him and cherish him. Problem solved.

 

[Echo]

Well said Amber! I second all of that!

 

[Amber]

Thanks Echo!

Sorry guys, I tend to ramble on a lot when it comes to this. I'm not 100% against hybrids, but I'm not exactly for it, if that makes sense. If the offspring were sterile like mules from donkey/horse matings were I probably wouldn't mind because that means genepools would remain separate. Even if their was documented breeding of each and every bird so their is a record of if it is a hybrid or pure, so hybrids could be marked as so, and pure birds guaranteed as so, but with nothing like that available you can see the risks we run. It's like the dingos here in Australia, hybridising with domestic dogs and ruining a genepool. Their are arguments for and against that are equally valid, but until I see a way to manage this correctly, I'm against it. Even the best breeder producing hybrids in a ethicial way (no harm to parents, no harm to offspring, no genetic conflicts like different breeding systems ie lovebirds etc and whatever) has no guarantee or say over what happens to those birds when sold. they could be re-sold as pure birds, and bred.

Their could be something like a kennel club, but for birds. in particularly species that can hybridise and be mistaken for parent/other species very easily. Because at the moment, the only way to guarentee 100% pure stock in many species is to buy wild caught birds, which is something else that should be stopped.

 

[oled]

In the perspektive of breed for certan behavior as don with dog I think that hybride could be a good thing

 

[Bullitr]

Sorry if I touch a very sensitive subject

But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird.

In response to marrying a monkey
I never said a person can marrying a monkey ....( I don't know if thats a metaphor for something else regardless)
I am part black, white, yellow, brown as my ancestors
We are the rainbow breed but we are all humans

And i am Very proud of that.

Mods
if this is too political and not allowed in this forum
Please edit or delete.
My original post was not meant to be racial but i was just trying to be funny and not taken literally.

 

[Amber]

Sorry if I touch a very sensitive subject

But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird.

In response to marrying a monkey
I never said a person can marrying a monkey ....( I don't know if thats a metaphor for something else regardless)
I am part black, white, yellow, brown as my ancestors
We are the rainbow breed but we are all humans

And i am Very proud of that.

Mods
if this is too political and not allowed in this forum
Please edit or delete.
My original post was not meant to be racial but i was just trying to be funny and not taken literally.

Nonono, I was trying to use an example. Humans are all the same SPECIES, different types of macaws are not. Lets say people are like budgies, even though they come in all different colours and types, they are all the same species. It doesn't matter if you breed a blue to a green, a pied to a normal, an english type to a wild body type. They are all budgies, and the offspring are still budgies, of the same species as the parent. Just like people of different races.

But a scarlet or a blue and gold macaw, or ANY species of macaw are NOT the same species. While the budgies are 'apples and apples' even though one may be green, and the other red, they are still the same species. Just like people. But a scarlet and a b/g or a military or a hyacinth macaw are not the same species. they have evolved from a common ancestor, but have diverged enough to be separate species. they are apples and pears. Just because you CAN crossbreed them, doesn't mean you SHOULD. Sometimes it gives good results, like the catalina. Think of a nashi fruit (applexpear fruit) that combines the best traits of the parent species. But most of the time it gives horrible results, with birds with conflicting bio rythyms for breeding and mating that makes them miserable, strange and often impossible to meet dietary needs (in particular with hyacinth crosses) and so on.


"But after reading a lot about specially on a Catalina macaw it makes a good sense to me because you get the less aggressive scarlet macaw and create gentler, more beautiful bird."

"In the perspektive of breed for certan behavior as don with dog I think that hybride could be a good thing "

In theory, yes. Controlled hybridisation can produce 'better' pets. Controlled being the word. F1 catalinas make wonderful pets, and the genetic pattern (bg one half, scarlet the other on the genome) is known. F2 and onwards catalinas (that is, the offspring and their offspring from the first cross) are however unstable, as genes 'swap over' and recombine in the process of making gametes, that will eventually become a new chick. This means instead of BG on one side of the gene, and scarlet on the other, it becomes a mix all around. This means instead of inheriting the traits as the first crosses did, they can inherit BAD traits from BOTH sides, potentially making them MUCH worse pets then the original species.

Bs
BS
bS
BS

Catalina F1 hybrid genome example above.

SB
bB
SS
Sb

Catalina F2 hybrid genome example above

B/b- B and G - S/s Scarlet

Capitals are dominant genes, lowercase recessive. lets say for example all the dominate genes (Alles, whatever) in the first one are 'good' genes we want in the offspring, which is usually what happens with F1 catalinas. In the second one due to translocation of alleles and parts of the genome when gametes are formed (sperm, egg) we end up with a mixed genome. This means we have no control over the combination of genes the offspring of a catalina x catalina mating will have, and we could end up with vicious birds, sweet birds, anything. It's more risky and near impossible to predict compared to the original species. And these multi generational hybrids also have a plethora of health problems (The initial crosses escape this, but their offspring do not) due to health issues from BOTH species existing in the one creature.

This is in addition to my previous post.

Unless you have a VERY sound understanding of genetics, you should not be breeding hybrids. And if you DO understand genetics, your not going to want F2 and beyond crosses to exist ever, and when we produce f1 birds we have no control over whether they mate of not after we sell them. Meaning, we are indirectly responsible for the offspring.

And, although I have used catalinas, cats are the EXCEMPTION TO THE RULE here. Most hybrids (even F1 hybrids) are 'worse' pets then either of the parent species due to behavioural issues arising from conflicting bio rythyms, etc. They lead miserable, confused lives. Hybrid love-birds being an easy to point out example here, some of which are believed to suffer from 'bird depression' as a result of their conflicting natures.


"Hybridising" dogs is not hybridising birds. Dogs are the same species (Canis familaris). A hyacinth and a scarlet are not.

 

[Amber]

"Maybe with a female sulfur and male umbrella"

I have nothing personal against you (In fact I've enjoyed this discussion/debate very much ) but I'm going to end it with this, because I'm tired of trying to explain this, but I highly doubt those birds would produce offspring with good traits to become pets, just like most hybrids. Think, hybrid lovebirds and their issues.

I'm going to suggest that furthermore you learn at least some basic genetics and biology and apply that to this situation before considering it any further. In particular look into how genetic diseases are transmitted to offspring, then imaging crossing two seperate species each with its own latent genetic abnormalities and what will afflict their offspring afew generations down the road, because it's very hard for me to explain, and its something you should have a sound knowledge in if you want to breed hybrids of any sort.

I'm going to link abit of wikipedia because it's an easy to read and use reference. I can find BETTER resources if needed

Genetics Basics
Starting with the basic concepts...

Parahuman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanzee
These link may explain better my analogy for humans and monkeys, and what it means to be a 'species' and what a hybrid is. No promises though. It's helped other people wrap their minds around it abit better before The human x chimp one is a good analogy for some of the hybrids out there, especially those only distantly related. While theoretically it could be possible, that doesn't make it a good idea, on a moral, ethical or any scale.

Genetic pollution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
This one will explain the concerns about hybrid genes finding their way into a pure population

hybrid (genetics) -- Britannica Online Encyclopedia
This one gives a short explanation on why natural hybrids can be good. note that this should not be seen as applying to domestic populations, as the 'fight to survive' is eliminated, and we are in control of breeding and culling, meaning detrimental genes spread and affect many, unlike wild situations. If a birs was not fit to survive in the wild, it would die. That same bird in captivity, it usually survives anyway thanks to human intervention. Good for the bird, but not so much for its offspring and the genepool in general should it breed.

Hybrid (biology) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Hybrids in general. In particular this sentence is of note "The concern of purebred breeders with wildlife hybridizing a domesticated species (Though this applies to any hybrid) is that it can coarsen or degrade the specific qualities of a breed developed for a specific purpose, sometimes over many generations. Thus, both purebred breeders and wildlife biologists share a common interest in preventing accidental hybridization."

Speciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Understanding the difference between species and how it occurs, and why some species are more closely related and capable of breeding then others. See also Hybrid speciation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia for hybrid specific, but remember that in captivity natural selection does not come into play so detrimental hybrids still survive.

I'll leave it at that for now

Edit: A very wise woman who breeds birds of many types and has many hybrid rescue birds (and has seen the problems first hand) once told me to always remember, that we as humans take animals from their environment and breed them to suit out purposes. This makes us responsible for the welfare of each and every animal we create, and their offspring, and their offsprings offspring and so on. Because if we had not made the first cross, those other animals wouldn't have existed. This means each and every health problem, mental problem, behavioural issue, EVERY issue F2, F3, F4, not to mention the three way crosses, and beyond birds suffer, we were responsible for because we made the cross that started it all. If you take a hybrid and breed it without knowing the results, your just as guilty. Just because your F1 cross Catalina may be healthy and happy, doesn't mean their offspring will be, in fact their likely to be animals with horrible issues. And you are eternally responsible for that. Even when you pass away, the great great great grandchildren and beyond of your birds will still exist, and breed, and produce more generations that can potentially stretch on until the end of time. And those future birds could suffer because of the bad breeding you implemented. This effects generations.

I've expressed views both for and against hybrids and tried to give a non bias view previously, and I still stand by that. But until their is a CORRECT way to manage hybrids and diminish harm, I can not stand by the practice as a whole.

 

[Dragonwyke]

if you click on the following link it will take you to pick of a citron 'too i had in rehab for about 2yrs. his name is Tango. he's sitting on my carpet w/one of my other parrots at the time, Paulie, a blue crown conure. in comparison to the one in the OP he is huge. the little one being discussed is a cross of goffin and citron. i've seen these many, many times here in florida at our local flea markets. they are very popular here as they are smaller sized w/the pretty crest and ALL the 'too personality, and little less of the overpowering screeching of the cresteds.

on a personal note, i do not like crossbreds of birds. it's not the look that bothers me, it's the idea that something that's already perfect in form and function is being warped (again) by human interaction to suit what we see as our needs. in the end, it will mean just one more kind of abandoned, abused, neglected, unwanted creature WE created that we do not want. it can only end badly. it just proves to me on a daily basis that humans, taken as a whole, are a selfish greedy breed, and a stain on the face of Earth.

okay, i'm off my box now, sorry.

]Login to a private Photobucket.com albumhttp://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq280/Dragonwyke/All%20My%20Feathers/th_pictured_573.jpg


[URL="http://s455.photobucket.com/albums/qq280/Dragonwyke/All%20My%20Feathers/?action=view&current=pictured_573.jpg"][IMG]http://i455.photobucket.com/albums/qq280/Dragonwyke/All%20My%20Feathers/th_pictured_573.jpg[/URL]

DW

ps. needless to say, i get on much better w/my critters than i do people .

 

[Auggie's Dad]

Many aspects of this are a wonderful and informative conversation and I'm glad we have it.

I would like, however, to encourage both those posting and those reading to keep the facts and the interpretations of those facts separate in their mind - both are more than welcome, but they are different. It far too often happens that someone presents sound reliable facts and either they *infer* from these that some conclusion is inevitable - or, perhaps more often, someone reading will see unintended implications which were not really there.

In other words - on such topics - be sure to read carefully and respond courteously. In this manner we can learn from our differences, and quite possibly convince others to consider our view. If language is to polarizing, conversation stops.

 

[Dragonwyke]

ya know, i finished reading alot of the comments on this posting. very interesting, and difficult for me to read. i guess i'm the wrong kind of person or something, because of lot of it just hits me VERY wrong.

parrots are NOT dogs, cattle, pigs, or horses. these are creatures w/intelligence, empathy, a real soul. you can't, maybe i should say, we shouldn't treat them like just so much genetic material to be manipulated at our own whim. they make decisions, considered and learned decisions the same way we do, if on a different level. if we crossbreed parrots so they are more malleable to our handling then we have "pets" not companions. like dogs as compared to wolves.

parrots will or will not chose to be friendly w/us when we have them live w/us, it's up to them. but in the long run, isn't that what fascinates us w/them? their nearness to our own minds/souls? THEY THINK, DECIDE, CHOOSE, FEEL, EMPATHIZE, and SPEAK to and a with us. because of these wonderful creatures, AS THEY ARE GIVEN US BY NATURE, we are not alone.

DW

 

[Amber]

Many aspects of this are a wonderful and informative conversation and I'm glad we have it.

I would like, however, to encourage both those posting and those reading to keep the facts and the interpretations of those facts separate in their mind - both are more than welcome, but they are different. It far too often happens that someone presents sound reliable facts and either they *infer* from these that some conclusion is inevitable - or, perhaps more often, someone reading will see unintended implications which were not really there.

In other words - on such topics - be sure to read carefully and respond courteously. In this manner we can learn from our differences, and quite possibly convince others to consider our view. If language is to polarizing, conversation stops.

Agreed, I apologise if I have been to forceful with my view, but biology, genetics and hybrids in particular is one of the fields I study and follow avidly, and my own conclusions are based upon not only my own research and opinions, but those of many other peers with knowledge in the area.

Like said previously, I am not against hybridisation as a whole, rather of the belief it needs to be managed and recorded carefully. This goes not only for birds, but for any captive animal. And in reality not only for hybrids (though their is an increased need due to risk of genetic pollution) but any animal.

I've provided links I deem neutral (beyond the parahuman one which is their as a concept example for what is it to be a species) hence wikipedia, in the above post that people can use to gather their own basic knowledge on the subject and make their own conclusions. However until I see some excellent evidence for it (beyond the catalinas, which in themselves seem to be an abnormality when it comes to this) I will be sticking with the research done into this. I do however try to respect other peoples points of views, though I will admit I find it difficult when people consider breeding birds, (especially those of different species without considering the impact) to not give a very passionate response. I am open to other ideas, but I believe they need to be backed up with solid evidence (in this case, genetic evidence in particular) when we are debating the welfare of living creatures, even with morals and ethics aside.

 

[Amber]

Oh and Dragon, I love your birds!

 

[Auggie's Dad]

Oh I don't think anyone has been to forceful at all. I'm not *that* polite ... If I though someone was I'd say it.

Just a bit of preemptive reminding. Discussions aren't worth much if everyone agrees - it's fun to disagree, and more fun to do so passionately. I've just learned that on the internet passionate debates easily spin out of control ... like boiling milk ... have you ever tried it, you've got to watch close as one second it's a nice warm start to some great hot coco, the next it's splattered all over the ceiling.

Okay ... dumb analogy, but that's what I'm good at.