Help me understand biting during training

[shinyuankuo]

Hi guys,

The newbie needs help again. It is our second week with our rehomed boy Winston. He is 12 years old male Eclectus. He prefers my husband and has ceased to bite him since the second day. He tolerates me and we are still working on our trust. He bites me here and there, especially when I train him, and I would like to understand why.

We train in separate room. When I train, my husband is not in presence. I don’t train very long neither (5 mins ish). When I have him step up, he gets upset stepping back to the perch. When I offer Winston treat in open palm, he occasionally chooses to bite my open hand rather than getting the treat. I need some help to interpret why he is doing this to me.

He doesn’t do it to my husband.

 

[chris-md]

Hello!

The best way we can answer what’s wrong is if you actually film a couple videos of training sessions and post them here (typically you’ll post to YouTube, then add the link to your post). This way we can observe what’s going on leading up to the bite.

It’ll depend also on what KIND of training you’re trying to do. Sounds like basic step up training but I’m not sure.

I could be a couple things but it all likely boils down to you’re pushing Winston too far, too fast. You aren’t watching for his language saying “NO!”

Take step up (which is a trick and not something to take for granted) with a scared bird. A scared Ekkie will freeze up and burn holes in your soul, hoping you’re telepathic. Whereas an amazon or cockatoo will get very excitable, and obvious they are scared.

A newbie will back off immediately from the amazon or cockatoo, knowing quickly they’re in danger.

The eclectus? A newbie will mistake fear for exactly a lack thereof and try to force the interaction. Hence they get bit.

So film a session or two, let us know what you’re trying to do, and back down a bit. He is likely not comfortable enough with you to do whatever you’re trying to ask him to do.

Also, dont give the treats open palmed. That’s...unusual technique for a larger bird. Use your Two fingers, and hold the treat BACK aways from the perch, maybe a foot. far enough so he has to reach out for it. This way he can’t lunge and bite when getting a reward.

 

[shinyuankuo]

Thanks, Chris-md.

I agree with you on the moving too fast part. He bit me after he showed discontent stepping down. Thinking back, I think I was just too nervous to train him. I was like “ok ok, don’t push him hard.” And I rushed stepping him down. Then I asked step up again and he bit me instead of getting a treat.

After he bit me, I gave a firm “no” and just paused the training for 30 seconds- 1 min. I just looked at him during that time, and I said no biting and moved on to target training.

He did fly (jumped) to me the first time at the end of the session, for a jackpot reward treat.

I’m the nervous new mom, but he really came far in the past few days. He was raised on a seed diet, and he had his first good meal of chop today. Ate 22 grams in a meal, which is the most he ate since conversion. He even at a few TOP pellets. When we first sprinkle mashed pellets on his old food, he wouldn’t even touch it. Sorry, just let this new bird mom celebrate a little bit here. lol

I will try to film myself tomorrow and put a video. I only did open palm today since he bit my fingers recently...thought I might as well try...fail!

 

[18WheelsOfSteel]

The short answer is he almost invariably gave you signs that he was either unhappy or uncomfortable wiyh whatever was going on and you missed the signs. Birds don't just up and bite out of the blue from what I have seen, they give us warnings, and if we ignore those warnings they give us a much harder to ignore warning by way of a bloodletting. 2 weeks is a very short period of time with a bird, perhaps you guys are asking too much too soon out of the bird, the general mentality I have taken to training is that I offer the bird the chance to interact, and if the bird says "No thank you" then I just accept that spending time with them right then isn't going to end well. Especially upon first being let out I find my birds like a bit of a chance to go explore and check out what has or hasn't changed in our living space for a half hour or so, then they usually come looking for me and we can train...point is, they are initiating the interaction, and since they want it, it tends to go easily and well.

 

[Laurasea]

This link and one other. Well worth reading!!

I agree palm feeding is just wrong lol. And your fear and insecurities are your biggest obstacle in training. Stop anticipating pain from a bite, you know he isn't going to be biting your finger off, or even sending you for stiches. So pull up your big girl panties. ( Someone once said that to me a d I just loved it)

Visualize your success, cuz I think parrots read our minds, as well as they've mastered reading our body language.
https://lafeber.com/pet-birds/bird-behavior/
https://lafeber.com/pet-birds/stress-reduction-for-parrot-companions/

 

[shinyuankuo]

I did NOT get bit today!!! (Woo-Whooo!)

I recorded our training session, which was cut short because someone got very excited and flew to the computer.:31:

I slowed down today, and Winston was overall happy and excited to train. After the video stopped, he flew to my arm for an almond in shell. We ended the training very positively.

Our step up and step down are on arms now. I would like to get him to hand eventually, but we don't have the trust of hands yet. He's been doing arm step up/down at his previous home for 12 years, so I will have to curve that once we have a bond.

Although he did not bite me this time, I would still appreciate if you can watch the video and point out things to improve. I know the step down is not very graceful. I'd like to get him to do it nicely one day.


[ame="https://youtu.be/LW9rVV5GRXM"]YouTube[/ame]


Thank you so much!

 

[18WheelsOfSteel]

It wont let me watch it, something about logging in. In general, pay attention to the cues that lead up to a bite, birds are usually pretty good about letting us know, once you begin to recognize these signs it is best to immediately back off and make sure birdy feels safe. Also beware that some birds learn to associate biting with getting put back in the cage, which leads to them biting when they want to go back in the cage, so if you get bit, try not to give them that reward for biting.

 

[chris-md]

That’s wonderful news! Bravo to you both!

Yeah, your video I believe is set to private. Youll need to go back in and make the video public.

 

[shinyuankuo]

Video adjusted. Thanks for letting me know!

 

[chris-md]

It works!

No real criticisms, you’ve pretty much have the training down to perfection: rewarding not just for step up but for step down as well (which is so important), the permission based mind set (“will you step up” vs “STEP UP”), backing out of their bubble right after the trick to let them decompress with the treat, the timing of the clicking is perfect - one or two minor mistakes with the clicker here and there that you noticed, we all do them bravo to you both! Couldn’t do it better myself.

To evolve your training, get away from arm now. If you want to get him to step up to fingers, work the fingers. You don’t have an aggressive bird attacking everyone at the drop of a hat. I want you to watch this video, which addresses how to train this very issue in profound detail with live training of a problematic bird. I could explain it, but visuals are always so much easier.

[ame="https://youtu.be/sXzbmH-6Ki4"]One Day Miracles | Don't Bite the Hand That Feeds You - YouTube[/ame]

With his tendency to fly (I’m actually jealous since my boy doesn’t care for flying), you can train recall, coming on command which uses targeting (like your using) across distances greater than a few inches - across perched for example. This teaches them that flying uncued won’t get treats. “No treats, you say? I won’t do it then! I’d rather do it the way that gets me treats!”

 

[shinyuankuo]

To evolve your training, get away from arm now. If you want to get him to step up to fingers, work the fingers. You don’t have an aggressive bird attacking everyone at the drop of a hat. I want you to watch this video, which addresses how to train this very issue in profound detail with live training of a problematic bird. I could explain it, but visuals are always so much easier.

I just watched the same video yesterday. lol
I’m so glad that we are on the right track! I’m so proud of Winston tonight. Yes, we will have to move away from arm. I am using a slightly different method to desensitize Winston to hands. We have singing sessions. I put my hand on his cage/perch near him while singing. He likes to sing along. I hope to follow that video soon.

Thank you!

 

[chris-md]

No problem! You’re very welcome!

It’s your bird and you know what he responds to. But Id strongly recommend you to follow the video example rather than how your going about it right now., which is very passive. The use of targeting and luring acts as desensitization, and you’ll get results infinitely faster since it acts through goal setting. Passive doesn’t teach him what you want, and can slow the bonding process. Passive methods are more appropriate for an overall generally phobic bird, a bird who trusts no humans and needs complete reprogramming. That doesn’t describe Winston at all.

I’d bet using the active training you’ll have this licked in a couple weeks flat.

 

[shinyuankuo]

No problem! You’re very welcome!

It’s your bird and you know what he responds to. But Id strongly recommend you to follow the video example rather than how your going about it right now., which is very passive. The use of targeting and luring acts as desensitization, and you’ll get results infinitely faster since it acts through goal setting. Passive doesn’t teach him what you want, and can slow the bonding process. Passive methods are more appropriate for an overall generally phobic bird, a bird who trusts no humans and needs complete reprogramming. That doesn’t describe Winston at all.

I’d bet using the active training you’ll have this licked in a couple weeks flat.

I hope so, too. He bit my hand before when I offered. It’s been the past few days that we are making progress. I am just careful as you might noticed that I’m a chicken in front of Winston.

Hopefully we will be able to move on the the video after spending a long weekend with him. Happy Thanksgiving btw!

 

[wrench13]

Parrots seem to sense fear in others the same way dogs seem to.

 

[18WheelsOfSteel]

Parrots seem to sense fear in others the same way dogs seem to.

I believe there is a lot of truth to this. Just remember, your bird DOESN'T want to bite you, hence all the signs before a bite...you aren't food, and they aren't predators, they don't like having to defend themselves or feeling afraid, learn to read Winston's body language and mood and you have absolutely nothing to fear.

 

[shinyuankuo]

My husband tried the video method today. He got a couple bite signs. We dodged, but Winston will need sometime to get there. He wanted to bite my hand in singing session, too.