He flies! (With the grace of a cargo jet with a drunken pilot).

[Kiwibird]

I know I haven't been on the forum much lately, but I'm trying to be a bit more active again. After adopting him as an always been clipped, no interest in flying 10 year old bird and a good 7+ years of 0 interest in flight, Kiwi has began taking random "flights". Trying to put a stop to it has proven ineffective. Trying proper training has proved equally ineffective. His "clips" have always been light, just a few primaries in, and I will never give the kind of clip that would totally butcher his wings. I'm kind of terrified at this point but beyond never ever allowing him outside unharnessed again, there's not much I can do.

He actually started last year, after I got a bit lazy and didn't trim his wings all summer. After that "magical" first flight, I got super excited he was going to learn to fly, it's natural for birds etc... and went full into trying to recall train. But his flights were sporadic and nothing really enticed him to do it unless he plain felt like it. He "flew" like a bat with broken sonar. Then late last year he crashed into a cabinet full force and knocked himself unconscious. I thought he died and couldn't even talk about the incident at the time. Took months to get the image of his completely still body splayed out on the floor out of my mind. It didn't help the scrape on his cere he received from the crash took weeks and weeks to heal and I was reminded every time I saw it that I failed to be able to prevent him getting hurt.

There had been no further meaningful attempts at flights since the crash and I clipped him again. Then yesterday, he took off again. I happened to be right in front of his flight path when he did. He flew a good 12 feet and when I instinctively stuck out my arm (my moms DYH, who is an excellent flyer, used to land on my arm) he managed to make an emergency landing on me instead of straight into the wall behind me. Though, the way he is clipped now makes him go low and slow, so I don't think he could hit the wall or kitchen cabinets as hard again. I don't think I can wish this problem away or write it off as a one off any longer and need to accept that Kiwi is flying. A 18+ year old beginner flyer of an ornery disposition, in a cramped condo with many obsticals and odd angles and he has all the grace of a cargo plane with a drunk pilot at the helm:17: Oh and he's about as interested in his new harness as he is recall training At least we've gotten it on him a couple times at this point and he no longer believes it is there to eat him I feel sad for him that he will never feel free outdoors again though. Now that he has shown inclination to fly, I cannot let him enjoy nature unrestricted anymore

 

[SailBoat]

Sorry to hear about Kiwi's crash!

We look at flight paths from different common places that Julio is during the day and will walk those paths with him. Any obstructions on or near those paths are walked into. After a couple of slow motion crashes, we walk the path again provide an option: turn, landing, etc... The goal it to provide each path with several options.

It is surprising how quickly they pick-up flight paths and start putting together alternatives.

Flight training: You may recall that in the "I Love Amazons - ... Thread, there are a couple of Segments that cover Restarting a Shutdown Amazon and another on Re-Fledging an Adult Parrot.

I cannot tell you how important it is to have a long discussion with your CAV regarding Kiwi's Health and your interest in re-fledging him. Building flight muscle mass, first requires a verification of the current status of his heart and air sacks.

Once Kiwi visits his CAV - then its time to start looking at methods of build muscle to create lift!

 

[Kiwibird]

Great idea to walk him into walls (gently, of course)! Kiwi is at a slight advantage with muscles and endurance. I figured out years ago he likes to hang onto my hand and flap his little wings as hard as he can. He's so cute because he tries so hard. He "flaps" around the house (grasping my hand for dear life) all the time. I've always thought of it as good exercise for a flightless bird and that has to have built some kind of wing related muscles. He flaps around more than a lot of flighted birds fly. He never expressed any interest in flying "unassisted" though until last year and I still haven't narrowed down the "cue" he's about to take off. He's just sitting there and then he's airborne without warning and seems very confused once he "lands" (more, crashes and by some kind of luck hits feet first). I feel bad. I don't know how to explain to him in a way he will understand. I am not a bird and teaching him flight is not my area of expertise as a non-avian

 

[SailBoat]

Its not as hard as you may think. When he is in a flapping mood, walk with him along those flight paths. With a bit of time, he will lean one direction or another and all you have to do is make those turns.

As he is flapping, you should be able to 'feel' if he is creating lift! As his ability to create lift increases raise your hand, as it backs off, lower your hand. This will put into place the force he needs to generate lift and to control height.

As with creating flight paths, they pick this up fairly quickly!

Enjoy!

 

[riddick07]

Kelly still sucks at flight but he is better than before. He is good enough at it now to make an aim for the neck if he decides a flighted attack is the way to go. Luckily he rarely thinks it's a good idea just the once so far.

Where are pictures?? I'm glad he came out of the crash okay! It is disappointing we won't see Kiwi enjoying the great outdoors without a harness anymore. I'm sure he really surprised you the first time he gave the flying thing a try

 

[Kiwibird]

Its not as hard as you may think. When he is in a flapping mood, walk with him along those flight paths. With a bit of time, he will lean one direction or another and all you have to do is make those turns.

As he is flapping, you should be able to 'feel' if he is creating lift! As his ability to create lift increases raise your hand, as it backs off, lower your hand. This will put into place the force he needs to generate lift and to control height.

As with creating flight paths, they pick this up fairly quickly!

Enjoy!

I do kind of raise and lower my arm so he learns "up" and "down" and I can feel him adjust his wing movements when I do so I know he feels something different He does make turns and stuff on my hand but one major problem with teaching flight paths is he can fly where I can't walk and I'm unsure how to teach him not to fly in those areas. When he hit the cabinet he went through the "opening" above the breakfast bar thing that allows you to see into the kitchen from the living room. I can't walk through it but he can fly through it (and then has no room to turn because this place is so small and so strangely laid out). Furniture and clutter wise, it's pretty clear, but the architecture is what poses big problems. I think my moms birds who are experienced, strong, agile flyers would have a tough time in here. If he was more conure sized or smaller, he'd probably have an easier time but amazons have surprisingly large wingspans and big turn radiuses. He doesn't even seem to yet realize he can turn when airborne, much less able to make tight turns.

This is a less than ideal space for him to learn and while I do want Kiwi to experience what is natural and right for him to do I also wish I could put the stop to it for just a few more years until we get a real home that isn't so dangerous for a beginner flyer. I love Kiwi so much, I just don't want him to get hurt. If he'd get more comfortable in his harness, I could let him practice outside on a flight line, but while we can get it on him, he's not amused and just pouts. I feel as though him flying in here is like I've handed a kid who's never drove keys to a Lamborghini and told them to have fun driving around in downtown Manhattan. It just feels irresponsible of me, but I also don't know what to do to stop it past a cruel type of clip.

 

[Kiwibird]

Kelly still sucks at flight but he is better than before. He is good enough at it now to make an aim for the neck if he decides a flighted attack is the way to go. Luckily he rarely thinks it's a good idea just the once so far.

Where are pictures?? I'm glad he came out of the crash okay! It is disappointing we won't see Kiwi enjoying the great outdoors without a harness anymore. I'm sure he really surprised you the first time he gave the flying thing a try

I *hope* Kiwi doesn't take to dive-bombing me I don't think he would though (he is an amazon though,so he can't be trusted.... ever lol:33. No pics of his flights because it is so sporadic at this point my main concern is running to prevent him from hitting a wall more than grab the camera The first time he did it we were trying to encourage him to climb down the stairs (he can climb up them). He jumped and came flying down instead and thankfully my husband was at the bottom to get him or he'd have hit the wall then too. Poor hubby urned as white as a sheet when he had the winged demon crash land on him. I was in shock. He was pretty pleased with himself

 

[SailBoat]

No, we cannot aways take the path of a flying Amazon. But we can get pretty close to those paths. Anytime he is wing flapping, practice the flight paths. It may seem like a waste of time, until that day you watch him actually fly that path and avoid that cabinet, wall, mirror, etc...

Tight turns! Early flyers take very wide turns and it takes time to build control and many of the first flights will commonly haut in a landing. So, also remember to include safe landing areas.

We practice: Stop, Look, and Listen, when we approach a door opening leading to or away from Amazon Central! Getting a full face 'hug' of feathers is fairly common if you do not understand that Amazon's always have the Right Away!

Your example of a zone that is too tight for flight is important part of practice with your Amazon. We have several flight paths that continue to get tighter and ever more non-forgiving. Teaching them to avoid entering those areas is as important as teaching the early part of flight paths.
Our prior home was huge, but the start of the flight paths into the ever more open flight areas was tight and demanding. The teaching of flight in very confined areas builds caution into their flights. You will note deeper wing cuts, slower flight and more slow speed control and less full speed power flights.

April, please know that I am not pushing you to full flight Kiwi, only passing on that what you are faced with is achievable. As you know, the more they use their wings, even when we are the transport unit, the healthier it is for them! and, while we are doing that, we can help them build an understanding of confined area flight!

 

[Kiwibird]

No, we cannot aways take the path of a flying Amazon. But we can get pretty close to those paths. Anytime he is wing flapping, practice the flight paths. It may seem like a waste of time, until that day you watch him actually fly that path and avoid that cabinet, wall, mirror, etc...

Tight turns! Early flyers take very wide turns and it takes time to build control and many of the first flights will commonly haut in a landing. So, also remember to include safe landing areas.

We practice: Stop, Look, and Listen, when we approach a door opening leading to or away from Amazon Central! Getting a full face 'hug' of feathers is fairly common if you do not understand that Amazon's always have the Right Away!

Your example of a zone that is too tight for flight is important part of practice with your Amazon. We have several flight paths that continue to get tighter and ever more non-forgiving. Teaching them to avoid entering those areas is as important as teaching the early part of flight paths.
Our prior home was huge, but the start of the flight paths into the ever more open flight areas was tight and demanding. The teaching of flight in very confined areas builds caution into their flights. You will note deeper wing cuts, slower flight and more slow speed control and less full speed power flights.

April, please know that I am not pushing you to full flight Kiwi, only passing on that what you are faced with is achievable. As you know, the more they use their wings, even when we are the transport unit, the healthier it is for them! and, while we are doing that, we can help them build an understanding of confined area flight!

I've done the flapping exercises for years because I knew he didn't fly of his own accord but still wanted him to have those health benefits that come with flying and to not be so scrawny in the chest. He wasn't underweight per-se, but his chest was bony because he had 0 muscle mass. When we first started the exercises, he'd flop over too, but now he can hold himself up on my hand. He isn't as muscular as a truly flighted bird who flies often, but he's a whole lot meatier than when we first started the flapping exercises. He also doesn't get winded from flapping a couple feet. I seriously used to think he was going to drop dead he panted so hard. He can now do circles around the room (and in fact enjoys doing so).

Have a quick question- when we do "simulated crashes" into walls and windows, should I actually let him (gently) bump into it, so he understands, or should I just walk into it? Also, I have to physically turn him around curves or he'd just keep going in a straight direction. How can I get him to more guide himself when on my hand? I don't want to hurt his feet. It's not necessarily the most natural thing for a bird or human to be doing

 

[Birdman666]

That kind of describes Tusk's flying abilities...

An overloaded cargo plane. With a drunk, disoriented, or just flat blind pilot...

I mean, this stupid bird once crashed into the middle of a two story house, bounced off (I had to catch him to prevent him from face planting on the concrete) AND THEN HAD THE NERVE TO LOOK SURPRISED! Like, who put that there, or I can't believe it didn't move out of my way....

He seems to get nervous when he goes in for his landing flair... and instead of doing a landing flair he grabs onto a branch with his foot, which has caused numerous crash landings in trees and bushes...

Seriously! I FLY BETTER THAN HE DOES...

 

[Birdman666]

All my zons are precise and on target. Hold up two fingers, they'll land softly on them every single time.

MY MACS WERE THE SAME WAY...

Baby we don't know about yet, because the idiot breeder short clipped her, and didn't allow her to fledge. She STILL can't fly!!!

(I WAS SO PISSED OFF ABOUT THAT... THE MINUTE MY CHECK CLEARED HE SHORT CLIPPED HER WITHOUT ASKING!!)

Hold up two fingers with my CAG? He won't slow down in time, he'll veer off at the last second, face plant into the wall, bounce off, land on the couch, and then pretend that he meant to do that. NO. I DECIDED I LIKE IT BETTER OVER HERE. YOU COME HERE AND PICK ME UP IF YOU WANT TO SEE ME. (holds up foot) COME ON THEN... I HAVEN'T GOT ALL DAY.

 

[Scott]

"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!" (shopworn pilot fable/excuse)

That said, not all birds qualify as safe! My TAG is a dreadful flyer and once broke a leg while the G2s are masterful.

You're doing the best possible compromise for Kiwi!

 

[Birdman666]

"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!" (shopworn pilot fable/excuse)

Some "good landings" are just "more expensive" than others...

 

[Kiwibird]

So sorry to hear Mark that they clipped your new baby No doubt though once the feathers grow back, she'll be a strong flyer in no time. You clearly have the experience and know-how to teach her and she can see the other birds fly as well.

I think Kiwi fully understands what is being asked of him at this point to target to my arm, he just plain isn't interested in complying with the command. He can be like that. He's not a dumb bird, I think he just likes to be deliberately ornery with me I know you've mentioned you clipped your birds in a way it still allows for flight. Just curious what that clip looks like on Sally or Lila? I am not sure Kiwi is ready to be fully flighted again. His current clip is real lite. 4 feathers in and only about 1.5" off the tips. It seems to slow his speed down a bit and keep him low, but kind of unsure if it's adequate to keep him safe while he's learning?

 

[Kiwibird]

"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!" (shopworn pilot fable/excuse)

That said, not all birds qualify as safe! My TAG is a dreadful flyer and once broke a leg while the G2s are masterful.

You're doing the best possible compromise for Kiwi!

My dad's G2 is the best flyer I've ever seen. Must be in their nature if all of course are too! He's so fast, can turn on a dime, do dives (that isn't a good thing if your the target) and practically does acrobatics in the air. Aren't cockatoo flocks somewhat migratory? Maybe something to do with their flight skills!

 

[Birdman666]

So sorry to hear Mark that they clipped your new baby No doubt though once the feathers grow back, she'll be a strong flyer in no time. You clearly have the experience and know-how to teach her and she can see the other birds fly as well.

I think Kiwi fully understands what is being asked of him at this point to target to my arm, he just plain isn't interested in complying with the command. He can be like that. He's not a dumb bird, I think he just likes to be deliberately ornery with me I know you've mentioned you clipped your birds in a way it still allows for flight. Just curious what that clip looks like on Sally or Lila? I am not sure Kiwi is ready to be fully flighted again. His current clip is real lite. 4 feathers in and only about 1.5" off the tips. It seems to slow his speed down a bit and keep him low, but kind of unsure if it's adequate to keep him safe while he's learning?

SOUNDS RIGHT TO ME.

CLIP THE SAME FOUR OUTSIDE FLIGHT FEATHERS, BUT YOU LEAVE JUST A TAD MORE THAN HALF THE WING. IT ALLOWS THEM TO STILL HAVE FLIGHT CAPABILITY, BUT THEY HAVE TO WORK HARDER AT IT, AND THEY GET TIRED QUICKLY. SO YOU HAVE LIMITED RANGE IF THEY FLY OFF ON YOU...

THE NEIGHBORS TREE. THE NEIGHBOR'S YARD. A BLOCK OR TWO ON A WINDY DAY. NOT UP, UP AND AWAY...

And mine are startle trained, which helps. I wouldn't take them outside if they weren't. A bird that spooks easily takes off on you...

 

[SailBoat]

I've done the flapping exercises for years because I knew he didn't fly of his own accord but still wanted him to have those health benefits that come with flying and to not be so scrawny in the chest. He wasn't underweight per-se, but his chest was bony because he had 0 muscle mass. When we first started the exercises, he'd flop over too, but now he can hold himself up on my hand. He isn't as muscular as a truly flighted bird who flies often, but he's a whole lot meatier than when we first started the flapping exercises. He also doesn't get winded from flapping a couple feet. I seriously used to think he was going to drop dead he panted so hard. He can now do circles around the room (and in fact enjoys doing so).

Have a quick question- when we do "simulated crashes" into walls and windows, should I actually let him (gently) bump into it, so he understands, or should I just walk into it? Also, I have to physically turn him around curves or he'd just keep going in a straight direction. How can I get him to more guide himself when on my hand? I don't want to hurt his feet. It's not necessarily the most natural thing for a bird or human to be doing

There is no question that even as smart as they are, when they launch for any number of reasons, rarely are they thinking about what is in front of them, but fully absorb in getting away from or staying aloft and not what is rapidly happening in front of them.

The process of the ongoing presentation and practice of flight paths is to work at hardwiring (building muscle memory) so that deep in their mind, that training is beginning to over-come the 'Flight' reaction. Thus even if it is moments before the crash and their mind clicks to the reality of 'Wall Dead Ahead!' they at a subconscious level have the been working at an option.

So, do you walk into a wall, yes you do! And, moments before the slow-speed crash, lots of pre-crash OMG's, Look-outs, etc... Once, the crash has occurred, then its a ton of; Are You Okay, What Happened! The important part is to now repeat the path, but this time, at about seven feet away, start adding: OMG, Looking out, we are going to crash and then pull a hard turn to avoid the crash.

Everyone of our Amazons have looked at me like I was out of my mind, after all they saw the Wall coming and I still walked into it. Dump Human!!! Now with the avoid the crash walk, by the third time I was getting, geeee you finely figured that out!!! Those are the moments that is a glimpse that they are getting it. The assurance is when they start leaning heavy to avoid the crash - full body twist and also looking at you like: Hey wake-up you are taking us into that Wall! Dump Human!!!

Enjoy! The first time you get that 'Dump Human' look, take pride in the moment!

 

[Birdman666]

None of my other birds had this problem.

Pecker, Maggie, Sweepea, Sally, and all three conures were free flighted at one point.

TUSK just never really got the hang of "slowing down" and landing. He quite literally chickens out on the flair. Like slow flight bothers him. "I'm gonna fall out of the sky and get hurt."

And when he goes into panic mode, he just reacts without thinking.

I honestly think with him it's a fear thing.

 

[Birdman666]

One of the most graceful flying acts I've seen from one of my birds was when the hawk landed on the bird tree on my balcony while Sally was sitting in her boing in the window. Across the living room, hard right turn to my bedroom, and then pushed the door shut with her head for good measure...

THAT'S thinking when you panic. Opposite of Tusk.

 

[Birdman666]

"Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!" (shopworn pilot fable/excuse)

That said, not all birds qualify as safe! My TAG is a dreadful flyer and once broke a leg while the G2s are masterful.

You're doing the best possible compromise for Kiwi!

My dad's G2 is the best flyer I've ever seen. Must be in their nature if all of course are too! He's so fast, can turn on a dime, do dives (that isn't a good thing if your the target) and practically does acrobatics in the air. Aren't cockatoo flocks somewhat migratory? Maybe something to do with their flight skills!

It's wingspan to weight ratio... some of the heavier bodied birds have a hard time maneuvering... and if you've been a perch potato most of your life, your stamina isn't going to be very good.

My red front is an amazing flyer. And red fronts can HOVER and turn in flight. Maggie, of course, was... and Sally is an absolutely amazing flyer.

Pecker didn't fly... she LAUNCHED. She didn't even slow down to aim. "I'm coming with you."