"Handling Freddie" Questions

[SharonC]

I'm having a problem getting Freddie to step up. It's only been two days and I'm trying not to push things, but I do need to be firm with him. It took me 15 minutes to get him in his cage for bedtime, as he just kept flying away. I was persistent, and did not retreat, and he actually just got tired of the whole thing, and went into the cage on his own. Problem solved???...I don't think so, as he didn't do as I asked. He uses flight to avoid things he doesn't want to do. That's OK for some things, but there are times when I need him to step up. I noticed when the previous owners were handling him, he sometimes "fought" the step up as well. I'm wondering about clipping him, especially until he and I "come to an understanding"....The previous owners advised me to be firm with Freddie, as they have been, and I do want to continue this.

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[Spiritbird]

Wing clipping was the first thing I thought of when reading your post. Of course that is your choice.

 

[HRH Di]

We all know how important bonding and trust is with our parrots. If you feel that clipping would help you establish this, it's probably a good idea. It would definitely make him more "managable" until you get used to each other.

 

[Oogies Mom]

HAHAHA that sounds like me and Oogie the first week I had him. I took me at least 15 minutes some nights to get him off his perch and into his cage !!! Eventually my arms would get tired and I'd have to take a break lol. I soon learned that if I gently pushed the branch towards his chest and up slightly he would put both feet on instead of just one. (Sometimes he would raise one leg and grab the branch to push it away, but I used that to my advantage.) I should note that while we were learning how to do this, I noticed that he would freak out if I held the perch vertically, so I make sure to keep it horizontal. Also, the branch/perch I have him step up on to is about a foot long. I don't wanna take the chance of him lunging at my fingers to bite once he's one it (if he's in a really cranky mood - but that's rare)
I realize this would be significantly more challenging with a flighted bird, but it's probably not impossible if you want to keep him that way. Could you try dimming the lights a bit before asking him to step up? Maybe he'd be less inclined to fly away if it were darker in the room? I'm no expert, that's just a suggestion. Good luck and don't give up!!

 

[SharonC]

I did try a stick, and he's scared to death of it. The previous owner used to hold his feet to prevent him flying, after stepping up, but I'm wondering if that's a good idea.

I'm thinking clipping would be a good idea as well. I know Freddie and I don't have a relationship as such, as it's only Day 4, and I need to establish a trust between us...but I'm terrified that he will think he can boss me around. It's such a difficult decision, at this stage of our relationship. We don't have an Avian Vet here, but I have called the Vet clinic to see if anyone would be comfortable doing a clip. I've also requested that they ask my vet(for our former dogs), as I trust him completely. I can do it myself, but I'm not sure that it would be a good idea, considering he's not terribly used to me, yet.

BTW, thanks for not suggesting I be tarred and feathered. After asking the same question on another forum, I received some angry comments, on what I should expect from Freddie, and the usual comments on "crippling" a bird.

 

[Oogies Mom]

If you can get you used to a stick (leaving one near his cage, letting him examine it etc) maybe you could try getting him to step up on one of those perches that has a tent on it. That way once on it, he couldn't fly off. I understand about you not being sure about holding his feet (I think I'd feel a little panicked myself if I were him) and maybe wing clipping is the way to go. Since there are different types of clipping, perhaps you could have your vet clip as few feathers as possible so as to allow him some ability to fly?? Don't forget, you're the boss, tho sometimes you may not feel like it!

 

[SharonC]

That's right! .....goes off muttering, "I am the boss, I am the boss, I am the boss..." LOL!

 

[Oogies Mom]

That's right! .....goes off muttering, "I am the boss, I am the boss, I am the boss..." LOL!

I find myself doing the same thing LOL

 

[HRH Di]

BTW, thanks for not suggesting I be tarred and feathered. After asking the same question on another forum, I received some angry comments, on what I should expect from Freddie, and the usual comments on "crippling" a bird.

In a perfect world, all birds would be fully flighted - except ostriches, emus, penguins, kiwis, etc. But for the sanity and safety of all parties, sometimes clipping is the best option.

Those of us with fully flighted parrots take risks every time we open our doors. And can these people honestly tell me that an escaped parrot in the northern US is better off than a clipped parrot safe in a warm house with adequate food and shelter?

Sorry, for the rant, but people need to just breathe for a minute and realize that there are two sides to everything.

Clipping may be the right option for you, but it's your decision not theirs. Besides, it's not like the feathers are never going to grow back. You aren't removing a wing.

 

[SharonC]

That is true....
I've called the clinic to see if a vet I'm familiar can do it. I trust him, because he looked after our dogs for years. I'm not going to rush it.

Tonight's bedtime was easier. He stepped up off the Playstand, and has done the same several times today...just never from the cage top. When he realized I was headed to the cage, he nipped my arm. It didn't really hurt but left two small dents. LOL! I immediately said NO, in a fairly loud voice, and gave him the "evil eye". He responded immediately and I put him in the cage. He then proceeded to have a conversation with himself, where he scolded himself thoroughly. Fred, No Freddie, Stop that, Step up, No Freddie! The expression that he uses is hilarious! He really is so adorable!!!

 

[SharonC]

I'm leaning towards clipping him, but still haven't fully decided. He's stepping up very well from other areas, but will not step up off the cage top for me. I have to get a chair to reach him, and I think he knows that I'm not confortable on that chair while trying to get him up. He does step up for my husband from up there, so I suppose we're doing OK.

I was moving a toy in the cage today, while he was on the cagetop, and he seemed to get upset with that. He made a hissing sound, and stepped towards my hand. I moved my hand away, and told him, in a firm voice, that I was going to move his toy, and that he needed to behave. He backed up, and I moved the toy.....although I watched him carefully. I think he understood when I told him that I was having no nonsense!

Then there's the risk of him getting out the door. It's summer here, with a lot of activity off the kitchen on to the patio. I'm terrified one of us will forget, and he'll be out and gone...

 

[antoinette]

I was moving a toy in the cage today, while he was on the cagetop, and he seemed to get upset with that. He made a hissing sound, and stepped towards my hand. I moved my hand away, and told him, in a firm voice, that I was going to move his toy, and that he needed to behave. He backed up, and I moved the toy.....although I watched him carefully. I think he understood when I told him that I was having no nonsense!

QUOTE]

A firm voice always works wonders. They realize who the boss is !!!!

I am taking care of Zazo, my sister's AG, 6 years old.
In her house he is the boss, things always done "his" way.
Only steps up onto a stick, and never sits in his cage during the day, always on top.

From the first day, I refuse to pick him up with a stick, when he did not step up on my hand, I walked away. Eventually and rather quickly, he changed his tune. Now when he wants to "uppies" he lifts his claw first.

I can't be with them (in the same room) 24/7 as I am working from home.
I was very firm, him being in the cage for a few hours during the day.
At first he refused to go back inside. I was firm, told him he must go back into the cage.......still he refused. Poor Zazo has sat on top of his cage for 6 years. Now I offer him a treat, he goes inside the cage,I close the door quickly, and he gets his treat.

 

[SharonC]

I'm so relieved that "firmness" is a good thing. I have read so many conflicting opinions. Some say to always give the bird a choice, and show respect for the bird at all times. I basically have decided to use common sense, and will treat Freddie as I would any pet, or even a child. All family members have to respect boundaries...including Freddie. He does have choices, but biting me will not be one of them. He can say NO, if he doesn't want to come out, or other unimportant things, but there will be times when he can't refuse. I will respect his feelings, but that doesn't mean he can make the household rules. I so hope I'm doing this right!

 

[SharonC]

Freddie has been here two weeks now, and still biting. He'll step up sometimes, and then bite for no reason that I can see. He flew to my shoulder the other day, preened me, while I talked softly and told him what a good boy he is. Then for no reason, he bit my ear. I'm not allowing the shoulder now...

I'm getting worried that I don't have the ability to do this. He bit my arm a couple of days ago, and left two bruises, one for each beak portion. Again, he'd already stepped up, but bit on the way to the play area. I'm dreading getting him out of cage, and back in, as he seems so unpredictable...

The wings aren't clipped, because my vet contact didn't call back, and I don't have the "guts" to do it myself. Hubby is thinking he should go back...I'm not sure what I think. I do know that if I'm afraid of him, it can't be a good relationship....

 

[Aussie Ben]

You poor thing, I feel for you. Don't give up yet though, trust and understanding takes time (some cases more than others). I have read this thread and lots of good information has been given. I know I rant and rave about it a lot, but have you considered target training? (I noticed you started a thread on Birdtricks) The reason I suggest this, is that you can teach the behaviour while he is in his cage, without having him out. You can teach him how to do it and once he gets the hang of it you can lead him out the cage door and onto the top of his cage, then onto your hand - all without biting (hopefully). This way you can then use the stick to guide him to where you want him to go, like his cage, perch or playstand. Don't go thinking that I have used target training lots, I have just used it a bit, enough to build a level of understanding between my birds (because lets be honest, they do like to be cheeky and run the show sometimes)

Also just add, this method should help control the flying too. I know what its like to have a bird go crazy inside the house, very difficult to deal with, very scary and quite dangerous for the bird. If this doesn't help with the flying problem, trying to clip his wings might be your best option to settle him down, although finding a vet would be best for this ( I watched the vet do it many times when I used to clip buddy, but I was always to scared to do it myself - things can go messy if you don't know what your doing and the bird is uncomfortable)

Another thing I try and do is reward them every time they go back in their cage after they have been out for a while. This leads them to thinking that going back into the cage won't mean 'boring', it will mean 'yummy'!

Hope some of this helps, stick at it.

 

[Mel]

The wings aren't clipped, because my vet contact didn't call back, and I don't have the "guts" to do it myself.

I'm glad you don't have the "guts", definately don't clip his wings until you've learnt how.

My 'too was quite unpredictable when I got her. I would wear a think jumper or a jacket when handling her so when she did nip she'd get mostly jumper and I didn't lose confidence, or skin. If she bit when we were playing then playtime was immediately over and I'd ignore her which she hates and if she nipped when on my arm it didn't get a reaction because she didn't get a chunk of me.

She's been here for almost a month, and I have only just stopped covering up. You could also try a perch for him to step up on for now. As for the clipping debate you do what suits you and your house. I also think you're right, use common sense and think of him as a child that needs to learn boundaries... stern voices are great.

remember to reward good behaviour

Good Luck

 

[Birdamor]

Well, I don't know if Freddie has been DNAd a male or he is just called a male's name but, if he is a male, be advised that male zons are, in a way, a bit special and require a little extra care in handling because they are large, strong, independent and quite fearless birds who don't really need or even like that much cuddling from humans. Plus, male is the dominant gender in zons and they tend to get extremely hormonal during breeding season (we are in breeding season right now) so, sometimes, people think they are aggressive when, in reality, all they are doing is reacting to hormones.
Also, personally, I never really handle new birds until they ask me for it and, even though on occasion I make an exception, I would never make one for an adult male zon!

Two weeks is actually not enough to tell whether this is going to work out or not and, with time, I really think he will be OK because although you say that he has bruised you a couple of times if he was really-really aggressive he would have taken many big chunks out of your flesh already (male zons are not timid birds) so I think that his nips (I don't call them bites unless they actually puncture the skin) are more a warning to you than actual aggression. A warning because, after all, he doesn't really know you or trust you yet and they don't take it kindly to been told what to do by strangers. Furthermore, if you handle him because you have no choice but, in reality, you rather didn't and do it with fear in your heart, he will know and this will make things worse.

So I think that the best thing for you to do now is to leave him alone for a while, just open the door of the cage so he can come out but don't ask him to step up or anything. Interact with him as much and as often as you can but only verbally and by offering him a treat or a toy every now and then. Use a stick to make him step up and move him from one place to another but move him only when it's absolutely necessary (put his playgym next to his cage so he can go back and forth and maybe a swing hanging from a hook in the ceiling -they like to swing). Establish routines and schedules and follow them very strictly (nothing reassures them more than a steady schedule and routine every day). You can be more flexible once he has bonded with you and feels comfortable in his new home. Keep him to a solar schedule so he stops producing sexual hormones at the end of the breeding season (you don't want a hormonal zon in your hands all year round), feed him a good diet with plenty of fruits, veggies and greens (they are very good eaters and really enjoy their fresh produce) and bathe him once a day in the am by spraying him thoroughly with a misting bottle (give me a nice big bowl with cold water so he can bathe on his own - they LOVE baths!). Patience, persistence, love and consistency turn around the most aggressive of birds and, like I said, I really don't see Freddie as truly aggressive, I think he needs a bit of time to figure things out and, once he realizes that you are his human and that you love him, he will love you back.

 

[SharonC]

Freddie is DNAed Male...

Ken and I just clipped Freddie's wings!!!! I took the first three flight, 1/2 inch below the coverts, on each wing. My hands were shaking, Ken was restraining, and we were both sweating!!! Got it done, though! He's on top of his cage right now, and hasn't tried flight yet. Immediately upon being released from the towel, he said...Hey, Babe...What are you doing! He's accepted a couple of treats so he doesn't appear to be holding a grudge!Now, I just need him to try flying so I can see how much difference there is....


My plan now, that he can't just fly to my shouder, and anywhere else he wants...
I'm taking everyone's advice. Cuddling is not a probem. I don't want cuddling, as such. I just need to be able to control where he goes. Now that he's clipped, I hope to just let him hang out more in the room that we are in. I'm continuing with his dietary cahnges, as he was eating mostly seed. He gets mostly 12 hours of sleep at night, although he's not been going to the sleep room yet. I may do that this week, now that he's more comfortable here.

 

[SharonC]

I had to take two more on each wing, as my initial clip of three feathers made absolutely no difference.

Freddie has been more manageable since the clip. He played on the cage top for most of the day, and in his sleep cage...no flying around, and getting into everything. No flying to shoulders, when I'm not expecting it...

He's been out almost all day.

He's gone to bed now...this is his first night in the sleep room, in his sleep cage. I didn't step him up after the clipping, but will be doing that first thing in the morning, when I bring him out to his day cage.

I am going to take control of him a little more than I have been. Last night he lunged for the peanut that I was using to bribe him back into his cage. That was the "breaking point" for me. I either have to return him, or take control of the situation. I don't want to take him back. Hence, my "extreme bravery"

this morning in clipping. I'm taking control....Freddie is going to learn that I love him, but I am the "boss" when I need to move him. He can say NO to some things, because he needs to have choices, but he can't say NO to going back to the cage, bedtime, etc. He also cannot bite me everytime he wants his way. I do expect to get bitten sometimes, but I will not accept that, as a part of everyday handling.

We are resuming target training tomorrow as well....and he will not fly away when I'm trying to get him to focus.

I am woman, hear me roar!

 

[SharonC]

I can't believe the difference!!!

Freddie stepped up on the perch and went to his day cage for breakfast. He then played on the top...

Then, I stepped him up on the perch, and took him downstairs, where he's never been, to the shower. I stepped him down on a shower perch, and he had his shower. He did fly off once, but easily stepped back to the hand perch, and dried.

I stepped him up, came back upstairs to his cage, where he sits now playing.

Absolutely no attempt to bite...it's amazing!!!

My percetion, although it may be wrong...Freddie is used to "pushing the envelope" with his people. When he got difficult the reaction was to force him, which I saw them do several times. With the wings clipped, his attitude is adjusted, I guess, because his confidence os lower....I handled him firmly this morning with confidence. When he tried to get to my shoulder, I blocked him with my other hand, and no biting! Absolutely amazing, and I'm thrilled. Freddie will be staying!!!
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