Giant greenwing and bolivian blue and gold subspecies?

[DannyA93]

I was reading on a couple sites about these? Are they really a sub species or are they just bigger? The bolivian b&gs are supposebly about the size a a greenwing and the giant gws can weigh as much as 1650 grams and up?! What are your thoughts about this? And where can I find them?

 

[JJones1719]

I do not beleive that there are sub-species of the B&G or GW.
Depending on the B&G or GW, some are very small for their species and some are very large. I can only talk about my GW Neleno, From the day he hatched along with his sister, it was very clear that he was going to be a huge GW Macaw.
He is now 5 years old and tips the scales at approx 1750 grams. His feet are bigger then my hands. His toes go around my forearm.
When I take him out in public, he attacks much attn from views and I'm stopped offen and asked what type of Macaw is he and is he a hybrid. He is not, both his parants are very big. His sister on the other hand is very small for a GW Macaw.
I hope this answers your question. Joe

 

[Alisana]

I've heard of this as well. Someone else mentioned that there were "sub-species" of these macaws, but there aren't any pure lines left just due to the limited amount that were taken from the wild initially, and that most would have hybridised by now. (If they did initially exist)

There is a very high chance, that it was simply due to parentage and feeding. (As JJones1719 mentioned).

I had a trawl through some scholarly articles, and I couldn't find any reports or citations of 'giant' versions of the Ara ararauna or Ara chloroptera.

The other case, is that it is simply Gigantism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia where there is a hormone or gene that causes excessive growth during the adolescent stage, and sometimes into adulthood.

 

[DannyA93]

That's pretty much what I was thinking but if you google bolivian blue and gold macaw it brings up some articles about it. They even say that the bolivian has a true blue wereas the normal is more of an aqua color?

 

[Alisana]

That's pretty much what I was thinking but if you google bolivian blue and gold macaw it brings up some articles about it. They even say that the bolivian has a true blue wereas the normal is more of an aqua color?

Was it this article? Blue and Gold Macaws (Ara ararauna): Info and Photos

I'd be curious to see if any academic/scientific research has been done.

Looking at the criteria to recognise a subspecies:
"Members of one subspecies differ morphologically or by different coding sequences of DNA from members of other subspecies of the species. [...] two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier were removed (e.g. geographical location)"

If there is enough evidence, based on size, distribution and colour differences, or even different coding in the DNA, then the subspecies of Ara ararauna or Ara chloroptera may be recognised. That is if anyone has bothered to actually look though from a scientific standpoint.

Slightly related: I am interested in reading this paper, based on title alone: - Google Scholar ( A new subspecies of scarlet macaw (Ara macao) and its status and conservation)

 

[Alisana]

Was it this article? Blue and Gold Macaws (Ara ararauna): Info and Photos

I'd be curious to see if any academic/scientific research has been done.

Looking at the criteria to recognise a subspecies:
"Members of one subspecies differ morphologically or by different coding sequences of DNA from members of other subspecies of the species. [...] two groups would interbreed freely provided only that some external barrier were removed (e.g. geographical location)"

If there is enough evidence, based on size, distribution and colour differences, or even different coding in the DNA, then the subspecies of Ara ararauna or Ara chloroptera may be recognised. That is if anyone has bothered to actually look though from a scientific standpoint.

Slightly related: I am interested in reading this paper, based on title alone: - Google Scholar ( A new subspecies of scarlet macaw (Ara macao) and its status and conservation)

Here we go! http://www.bio-nica.info/biblioteca/Wiedenfeld1994.pdf

An interesting read.

 

[Alisana]

I do not beleive that there are sub-species of the B&G or GW.
Depending on the B&G or GW, some are very small for their species and some are very large. I can only talk about my GW Neleno, From the day he hatched along with his sister, it was very clear that he was going to be a huge GW Macaw.
He is now 5 years old and tips the scales at approx 1750 grams. His feet are bigger then my hands. His toes go around my forearm.
When I take him out in public, he attacks much attn from views and I'm stopped offen and asked what type of Macaw is he and is he a hybrid. He is not, both his parants are very big. His sister on the other hand is very small for a GW Macaw.
I hope this answers your question. Joe

By chance, could you link us to photos of Neleno? I'd be curious to see him compared against his sister. He sounds huge! When I read your post I was sitting there looking at my hand trying to imagine how big his feet were in comparison. *laughs*

 

[JJones1719]

Alisana, yes I do have pictures of Neleno and his sister somewhere. i have to locate them, scan them, then try to figure out how to attach them to this site. if you know how to do this, please let me know so I can post the pictures.

Yes, Neleno is huge and I have not met another GW that comes close to him. On the profile picture of Neleno, he was on 9 months old so you can estimate adding a few more inches and adding another 400 to 600 grams. Thanks Joe

 

[ann]

I'm glad you asked this, ive been wondering the same thing but couldn't find any information until now. They are both gorgeous, i wish their was more known about this, and Neleno sounds amazing!

 

[Alisana]

I had a chat with some people to find out perspective.

Seems there is a bit of divide on whether it is a genuine subspecies or not.

There is however, this book which I was told to have a read of: [ame=http://www.amazon.com/Large-Macaws-Their-Breeding-Conservation/dp/0963596403]Amazon.com: The Large Macaws: Their Care, Breeding, and Conservation (9780963596406): Joanne Abramson, Jorgen B. Thomsen, Marsha Mello, Brian L. Speer: Books[/ame]

Apparently it has information on the "larger" varieties of macaws.

One breeder I spoke to mentioned that they believe it just varied bird to bird. He had a female B&G Macaw that weighed in at about 1300g, yet her nestmates were all normal size around 900-1000g.

 

[JJones1719]

I've seen many different sizes when it comes to Parrots in general. My SI Male Eclectus is on the very small size ranging from 13 inches or so. My GW Macaw on the other hand is huge and right up there with the HY Macaws. In fact some Hy Macaws I have met, my GW is much larger.
I just think that each Parrot is different in their own way. Best of luck Joe

 

[keepsmiling]

There is also a Bolivian Hawkheaded Parrot. They are huge and slightly different in color.

 

[WharfRat]

I've seen many different birds (BGW) that came from the same parents as mine, their size & weight vary significantly clutch to clutch, the parents are on the large size as GW's go but not all the babies grow as big. My 2 GW's are only a clutch apart but the oldest is definitely the bigger of the 2, they are only 3 months apart in age both females. The "Dad" is DANG big!

 

[DannyA93]

Hmm imma have to read all those articles when i have some free time! haha maybe ill call some breeders and see what there opinions are?