Forum's approach to unweaned baby birds

[Jottlebot]

Hi All,

I've noticed yet another "Baby xxx really sick, please help!" posts. It's almost identical to one a few weeks ago where the baby died. Both were extremely young and the owners were, let's say, "inexperienced". They both involve Alexandrines, which probably makes me a bit more sensitive.

I just wonder if there is any value in allowing these posts? The advice is invariably "Get to a CAV! Now!!" and often the response is that there aren't any. I'm just not sure that we're doing any good. My heart aches at the thought of birds suffering, but are we actually encouraging people to get unweaned babies by offering support and not having a clear stance on these things?

I wonder if we could have a bit of a discussion about it?

I personally find them very upsetting posts, because they feel so hopeless.

 

[Owlet]

I feel it would do more harm to disallow them. Some get genuine help and actually do something about it and the chick flourishes. I know the first response is generally "cav or find a local breeder to hand raise it for you" but later more equipped people come in and give the hard facts and details about hand raising and how to do it properly. A lot of the threads have many "this is why you don't buy unweened babies" too.

 

[Terry57]

I feel it would do more harm to disallow them. Some get genuine help and actually do something about it and the chick flourishes. I know the first response is generally "cav or find a local breeder to hand raise it for you" but later more equipped people come in and give the hard facts and details about hand raising and how to do it properly. A lot of the threads have many "this is why you don't buy unweened babies" too.

Owlet said it perfectly, I have only a couple of things to add to that.
There is always value in someone caring enough about their baby to come here asking for help, and we would never keep them from posting. I have never seen anyone encouraging someone to get an unweaned baby, and in fact I think these sort of posts serve as a warning to people that it is not a good idea.

 

[eagle18]

I don't think they help. The person is inundated with different approaches as to how to help the baby, and it can all be quite overwhelming not to mention confusing.

Nobody here is a vet, and in the time it takes for the owner to post and respond to each reply he/she could have located a vet and already taken their bird in.

 

[Owlet]

If someone is prioritizing posting to a forum over getting their bird medical help, that's a whole different issue.

No one is ever required to respond to all or even any posts.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Information is good. People will do what they will with it. If someone is googling sick unweaned bird, or searching on this site, maybe if they find enough threads about it they will take it seriously. In fact I wish there were a sticky post for it, with nothing but “There have been X new posts about problems with unweaned bab birds. X1 of the original posters consulted avian vets, and X1a of their birds survived...X2 of them consulted other vets, and X2a of their birds survived, X3 of them decided to take care of the baby themselves and X3a of them survived, X4 people never responded so we don’t know what happened. Sounds complicated but a simple table layout will easily show the risks...idea being to convince e people that to take the advice e seriously, their bird has a 70% chance with a CAaV vs 30% chance without.. if the person really and truly doesn’t have a vet available there isn’t much choice. Maybe some one considering buying an unweaned bird will think twice about it if the truth is easier to find?

 

[itzjbean]

Yes! Thank you for this! There have been several threads this year regarding unweaned baby birds, there are also the threads where you get the 'I just got a pair of greys how do I make them breed and lay eggs' that make me want to shake the person.

It's really hard to keep your composure and be polite when the advice given is refused . So I will say this, there is a difference between asking for help and taking it versus asking for help and getting mad when you get a response that you don't want to hear. I don't think I should have to sugarcoat a response if the bird is in danger of dying and there is little urgency in saving them or changing methods.

 

[wrench13]

I would rather read and react to 5,000 posts like that than to just coldly point them to a precanned response. Sheesh is our time that valuable that we cant help each one of these people? Who are seeking HELP for their babies.

 

[EllenD]

I for one remember several, and I mean at least a dozen of these posts where myself, SilverSage, Itzjbean, and other experienced breeders have given very detailed advice that has helped the person and saved the bird...So in my opinion, pulling these down or banning them is both a detriment, as well as very arrogant...

This usually has to do with the person not heating the formula up to the correct temperature, and not keeping an unweaned, unfeathered baby in a Brooder or a correct ambient temperature...And this information we can give them, and in many instances they say that they weren't aware of this and they make the necessary changes. These people are usually in either the Middle East, India, etc., where CAV's and Vets in-general are scarce, and what else are they supposed to do, just let the bird die? Go onto another forum that will give them horrible and amateur advice? What good are we serving by telling these people that "we don't have the time to help you"...

Seriously, when did we on this forum become too-good and too-busy to help people? I don't like having to sensor myself either in urgent situation where the OP won't listen to you, as they must listen to you or their bird will die...But I'd damn sure rather yell at someone and save their bird's life than for them to get some "form message" saying "We don't answer that question here on this forum...That's just elitist to me in a way...I'd actually myself rather get a warning or suspended for yelling at an OP if I save their bird...and it's not my experience in these particular "unweaned baby" posts that this is happening at all...This is an educational environment where people are supposed to learn from us who are experienced...It would be nice if they all came here first, before getting a bird, but that isn't realistic, nor is it helpful to even consider or talk about...I for one will always help anyone I can, regardless of the mistakes that they've made...I'm not too busy to help these people, nor are the other members who typically help these OP's out...that's what we do here, we "help" people and birds...right?

 

[GaleriaGila]

Yes, I have to take a deep breath when I face one of these... they can indeed be upsetting. But as Mr. GoodWrench said, I'll endure 5,000 misfires if I can help a single baby bird. I enjoy keeping the learned threads and essays of several of our breeders here on tap, to offer them while OPs await the experts' personal touches. And I know of at least two cases where a desperate OP didn't even know about CAVs, and found one, and got help.

Thanks you, to all members who contribute to our mission here... to help birds.

 

[Scott]

I am almost never a "black/white" issue person, always shades of gray and colors. However, when matters of life/certain death arise, please post threads, unfettered. Members always have the option to ignore a thread, and most of these are appropriately titled for judicious clicking.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Scott, I add my support for your observation about judicious clicking.
If you're a very tender-hearted person who is tortured by these posts, I completely support your avoidance of them. Nobody should come here and be traumatized. Excellent point.

 

[Cardinal]

As Ellen has mentioned, most of these posts are probably from people in the Indian subcontinent. These are not just unweaned babies, but unweaned babies that are stolen from their parents in the wild.

Despite being legally protected, the Alexandrine parakeet is still being exploited by unscrupulous elements in society.

I think it is our responsibility to not only help the bird and its guardian but also prevent such poaching , trade and purchase to happen in the future.

I had shared a post earlier about the British Government itself having taken interest in this issue, in the Alexandrines section. So it is indeed a serious issue.

 

[Cardinal]

https://www.telegraphindia.com/calcutta/ten-smuggled-birds-seized-from-car-240833

A link from recent past to corroborate what I have said.

 

[eagle18]

No one is ever required to respond to all or even any posts.[/QUOTE]


All I have ever seen is people responding and the post usually goes on into 4-5 pages and maybe even more. Why? Because the author is trying to soak in all the information that she/he is getting.

 

[eagle18]

I would rather read and react to 5,000 posts like that than to just coldly point them to a precanned response. Sheesh is our time that valuable that we cant help each one of these people? Who are seeking HELP for their babies.

Point them to a vet and keep pointing them to one. The vet can at least put the bird in a warm oxygen tank, or take over feeding, while the author runs out and gets all of the stuff you guys always suggest they should get.

 

[eagle18]

I for one remember several, and I mean at least a dozen of these posts where myself, SilverSage, Itzjbean, and other experienced breeders have given very detailed advice that has helped the person and saved the bird...So in my opinion, pulling these down or banning them is both a detriment, as well as very arrogant...

This usually has to do with the person not heating the formula up to the correct temperature, and not keeping an unweaned, unfeathered baby in a Brooder or a correct ambient temperature...And this information we can give them, and in many instances they say that they weren't aware of this and they make the necessary changes. These people are usually in either the Middle East, India, etc., where CAV's and Vets in-general are scarce, and what else are they supposed to do, just let the bird die? Go onto another forum that will give them horrible and amateur advice? What good are we serving by telling these people that "we don't have the time to help you"...

Seriously, when did we on this forum become too-good and too-busy to help people? I don't like having to sensor myself either in urgent situation where the OP won't listen to you, as they must listen to you or their bird will die...But I'd damn sure rather yell at someone and save their bird's life than for them to get some "form message" saying "We don't answer that question here on this forum...That's just elitist to me in a way...I'd actually myself rather get a warning or suspended for yelling at an OP if I save their bird...and it's not my experience in these particular "unweaned baby" posts that this is happening at all...This is an educational environment where people are supposed to learn from us who are experienced...It would be nice if they all came here first, before getting a bird, but that isn't realistic, nor is it helpful to even consider or talk about...I for one will always help anyone I can, regardless of the mistakes that they've made...I'm not too busy to help these people, nor are the other members who typically help these OP's out...that's what we do here, we "help" people and birds...right?

It has nothing to do with being "too good or too busy" to help people. But you can't see the bird and many people learn better from a hands on approach, as a vet or vet technician can provide than reading a bunch of words. When one of my female cats rejected her kitten I had to step in and bottle feed the little one. I was just a kid, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, so the technicians showed me how to hold the kitten and the bottle, how much to give her, and to rub her tummy with a wet cloth when she was finished. We finally decided after many clumsy attempts by me that I was better at using a dropper than a bottle.

 

[Owlet]

Eagle I see what you're saying but a lot of the people coming here are also people that A) Live in an area that doesn't have many vets, especially CAVs, or any vets at all or B) Don't think it's necessary to bring their bird to the vet. And a lot of the time, those who think that aren't gonna be swayed by a handful of people telling them to take their bird to the vet. If that's the case than the only thing we can do is our best to ensure the poster knows what needs to be done to keep this baby healthy and alive. I'm sure 90% if not 100% of this forum is against buying unweened birds at all but it happens and if we are gonna be honest here, it's not gonna stop.

 

[eagle18]

I understand now, and thank you for explaining.

 

[Jottlebot]

The argument of helping an unweaned bird and stopping the illegal trade just doesn't add up. If we - and really I mean the breeders experienced enough to give detailed and accurate help - do step in and help potentially illegally taken, sold and in some cases kept baby parrots, aren't we encouraging the taking of unweaned babies?

I'm glad to hear that a number of forum members can remember success stories. To be honest I was surprised. Maybe I'm too jaded and don't have much faith in people who would get an unweaned baby with absolutely no idea how to care for it. I researched for years before getting my bird, so I guess the approach some people seem to have just doesn't compute.

If I came across as suggesting 'we' were too busy and important to offer advice then I've been misunderstood. This wasn't my intention and wasn't even something I'd thought about. I'm just not sure that offering the forum-based equivalent of buying an animal from a terrible store to "save" it has ever been the right thing to do. Why should someone stop doing something that gets them rewards?

I still think this is an important discussion to have, and clearly there are a range of opinions, thank you to everyone who has gotten involved.