Doc appointment..

[AmyMyBlueFront]

...so this Friday at 2pm the kids have a wellness/grooming appointment with their CAV. It's time for Amy to be checked out with her heart meds to see how she is doing and they both need a birdicure.

Amy will get her nails done,but coz it's cold here now and she won't be going outside in the car I'm thinking of leaving her sleeves long.
Beebs needs his nails trimmed too. I have never shortened his sleeves since he came home with me. I let him fledge/learn how to fly,and he is an expert at it now.
But now being in a new residence i'm seriously thinking of having them shortened. He flies to places he shouldn't and for some very odd reason he won't stick around/hang around with Uncle David
If I have him clipped he would be kind of dependent on me or David and I think David will get a better chance to be pals.

BB will climb on David's finger,if just for a few short moments,then look for me and fly to me. If he was to get his sleeves shortened he wouldn't have that opportunity and he and David could become closer.


I have until Friday to decide..


Jim

 

[noodles123]

Tough call, but it sounds like you are wanting it for the right reasons. Make ABSOLUTELY certain (if you do this) that the bird will not fall when it tries to fly (as it definitely will).

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Tough call, but it sounds like you are wanting it for the right reasons. Make ABSOLUTELY certain (if you do this) that the bird will not fall when it tries to fly (as it definitely will).

I will have his doc give him a light clip ( like his breeder did) where he could "get a little air" and not fall like a rock!



jim

 

[Flboy]

Are there any predators there? Cat—dog?

 

[ChristaNL]

Autch...I find this a bit difficult because I know how much birds love to fly!

You guys have been living with David for under/about a month now -- so for me it sort of feels like you are trying to force them on each other this way, the relationship/bonding would probably develop naturally anyway.
They just had the huge change of scenery to get used to and another huge flockmember added to the bunch.
On the other hand - the sooner David is completely sold on and in love with the birds the better for everyone of course....

make haste slowly

(glad to read you are not completely cutting him off from flying, but still... it feels like you are forcing the issue)

 

[Anansi]

Let me tell you a story, Jim.

When I first got Jolly, my brother-in-law couldn't understand why I refused to have him clipped. Like Beebs, (and unlike Maya whose wings were clipped before she'd even gone to her first home) Jolly has never been clipped. He was an expert flier by the time he joined my household at 2 years old, but he wasn't yet bonded to me. As you can imagine, clipping him in such a circumstance would've made training much easier on me.

Buuuuuuut, as I explained to my brother-in-law, easier and faster does not necessarily equate to better. I wanted my bonding with Jolly to develop naturally. Organically. I didn't want him staying with me because he had to. I wanted him coming to me and staying with me because he wanted to. Takes a little longer to achieve, and you definitely have to do your homework, but there's something special about a bond, in my humble opinion, forged out of genuine mutual companionship rather than dependence and need.

Another thing to consider is the fight or flight response. Jolly has never once bitten a soul. Not even a hard nip. At 5 years old, that's rather impressive. I think a large part of the reason for this is the presence of options. He need not fight, because he has the option of flight. But take away that option, that freedom to choose, and Jolly might not be quite so... well... jolly.

And finally, a proper clip wouldn't necessarily stop him altogether from flying away from your brother. It would just hinder his ability to get too far.

Honestly, I just don't see a reason here to clip a bird who is a proficient flier and obviously relishes the joys of flight. My suggestion? Have David work with him, using copious amounts of his favorite treats, while you are not around. But ease into this. As Christa wisely mentioned, it's early days yet. No need to rush this bond. Let it come naturally. I believe both Beebs AND David will be the happier for it.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Are there any predators there? Cat—dog?

Yes David there is a 16 y.o. cat here...Missy..who shows no interest in either fids and is an indoor kitty.




Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Autch...I find this a bit difficult because I know how much birds love to fly!

You guys have been living with David for under/about a month now -- so for me it sort of feels like you are trying to force them on each other this way, the relationship/bonding would probably develop naturally anyway.
They just had the huge change of scenery to get used to and another huge flockmember added to the bunch.
On the other hand - the sooner David is completely sold on and in love with the birds the better for everyone of course....

make haste slowly

(glad to read you are not completely cutting him off from flying, but still... it feels like you are forcing the issue)

BB USED to go see David when he came to visit us at my house..climb all over him and give him the wolfie whistle but now he acts afraid of David.



Jim

 

[LeaKP]

I know you'll make whatever choice is right for you all Jim. The only one who knows what your situation is like is you - it's hard no matter what.

Send some cooler weather this way, ok???

 

[EllenD]

Jim, you've got to make the decision that is right for YOU and YOUR BIRDS, and YOUR SITUATION. Everyone has to make this decision based on what is right for themselves, and though you can listen to the ideas/advice of other, don't ever let anyone make you feel guilty or like you're a bad parront because you clip your bird's wings. That's not fair to anyone, and even though it's good if you are able to let your bird's be fully-flighted, there are a lot of situations where at least a temporary wing-clipping is necessary...

And that's just it, wing-clipping is totally and completely painless and temporary, and when done correctly their wings will grow back fully in a matter of 2 or so months...So there is nothing wrong with taking advantage of the time that they are clipped and encouraging them to become closer to your brother, who they now live with in his house. There is a huge difference between encouraging your birds to spend time with your brother while they are clipped and actually "forcing" them to do so...I'm sure that if you clip Beebs wings temporarily and your brother makes an effort to spend more time with him and interact with him while he can't fly away from him, and he gets Beebs on his finger and Beebs freaks out and it's obvious that he doesn't want to be there and is stressed about it, that neither you or your brother are going to "force" him to stay there...that would be "forcing" your birds to interact/spend time with your brother...And that's not at all what you're talking about doing, nor would you ever do...

And anyone on this forum who has known you for any length of time knows just how much you love your fids and what great care you take of them, and also knows that you would never do anything to hurt them, scare them, or "force" them to do anything that they are obviously not comfortable with...

****As long as you make sure that your CAV only clips the outermost 5-6 Primary Flight-Feathers and doesn't go into the Secondaries at all, so that Beebs will be able to glide to the floor/glide across a room but not gain any altitude, and they do BOTH WINGS, then it's a painless, safe, and temporary wing clip that will grow back in fully in around 2 months or so. Nothing wrong with that, and nothing wrong with your brother spending extra time with Beebs during this time that he can't go flying away from him constantly, because we all know that chasing a bird around the house is the worst thing you can do when trying to build a bond with them...

You guys are now in a totally different situation and position than you've been in, you're living with your brother, in his house, and your brother obviously has taken a much more active role in your bird's lives. So I actually think it's quite important that your brother does try to form a stronger bond with both Amy and Beebs and does try to get both of them comfortable with being handled and interacted with by him, because not only will your brother now be helping to care for your birds since they're living with him,
but if you have any future health-issues that require you to stay in the hospital again, your brother is going to be the one who is caring for both of them 24/7 while you're in not there, so he needs to try to build a bond with them (I hope that never happens to you again). And anyone who has ever spent time hand-taming birds knows that it is much easier, much more productive, much less stressful for the bird and for you, and happens much more quickly if the bird's wings are clipped so that they can't constantly keep flying away from you...Does that mean that you're "forcing" the bird to do anything they don't want to do? No, absolutely not, as long as you respect it when the bird has seemingly had enough, and you don't physically make the bird do anything they outwardly and obviously don't want to do...which you nor your brother would ever do...Just because a bird is much more likely to stay perched on someone's finger and listen to them talking to them, to accept scritches more willingly, etc. when their wings are clipped does not mean that you're doing anything "forceful" at all; I myself believe that that situation allows the bird to get to know the person and allows them the time to realize whether or not they actually like the person, rather than the frantic and pretty-much automatic "flying-away" from them over and over and over again...And if Beebs still doesn't really like to spend time with your brother or have direct-interaction with him, then at least you'll know that and have to respect it. Nothing wrong with that...

There is a significant difference between "encouraging" and "forcing", as well as "giving a bird the chance to step-up for you and get to know you" and "physically keeping a bird against their will"...And as long as you respect the boundaries and the obvious outward wants of the bird, then there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a wing-clipping to help facilitate bonding and training...

 

[ChristaNL]

It is very rarely I disgree with Ellen, but since I brough up 'forcing the issue (of bonding)' I think it needs a bit of clarification.
We all sympathize with Jim and the situation of course (how could we not?), and I trust him not to do anything really harmfull to his birds but...


LOL, there is always a butt, isn't there?


We are talking about a bird freshly brought into a new house, with (relatively) new people-- who all of a sudden have a different dynamic between themselves.
(Even the completely familiar human part of the flock is behaving slightly differently -> that alone is quite unsetteling for a bird!)

There is a HUGE difference between being visited in your own home by someone and getting transplanted into that persons house and into that persons life.
It is not just the adults / humans that need to get used to that situation...


We always advise people who bring in a bird in a new house to take it easy and let the bird come to them (etc.etc. the whole shebang about bonding) so I do not think it is fair to the bird to say "we need to make an exception" and shackle the bird to a semi-new person "to make it bond faster".


It always reminds me of the research they did with the appearantly super-tame wildlife on the Galapagos Islands. When approached by humans the birds just stayed on the nests etc. - completely undisturbed (or so it seemed!).
Untill a rather inquisitive researcher placed heartmonitors in the nests and the found out that those "calm and unperturbed birds" (when approached) suddenly had their heartrates going through the roof!! (To the point of actually causing bodily harm to the birds.)

(Which is one of the reasons they now have *very* strict guidelines about how the humans are to interact with 'the locals')


So "stressless taming" with a bird that can no longer fly off in the face of danger?
Proof that first!
Because I do not believe that part.

 

[Sunnyclover]

All 3 of my birds have short "sleeves" and never for a minute do they suffer from it. In fact it's saved their lives several times. Don't for a second think you're doing the wrong thing if you clip them because better they be safe than you be sorry little BB gets into something he shouldn't and is injured or worse. We personally have a pretty big house with many many entrances and exits with various people coming in and out so for us we'd rather be safe unless we move or have less "busyness"...which could happen eventually. We're also considering building a bird room off the living room and then we'll have all birds with ling sleeves.

 

[Anansi]

Hey, Jim. Let me just make an addendum to my previous post. My view was given in response to your question, but it in no way, shape or form is intended to make you feel any guilt as regards whatever choice you make. I know how much you love your birds, and I think you know by now that I respect you quite a bit as a parront, so I figured it went without saying that I'd never think you'd do anything to harm them or force them into any situation. Obviously your consideration of clipping is completely motivated by love for your bird and a desire to strengthen his bond with your brother.

That said, I was addressing the strategy of creating a sense of dependence to achieve this aim. If you decide to go ahead with it, I'll still view it as you doing what you feel is best for all involved. There's no guilt to be found in that. My post is just to point out to you that there is another way to go, here. More difficult? Possibly. Heck, probably. Even most likely. But worth it, in my opinion.

But my opinion is just that. An opinion. It's what works for me and my flock, so I thought I'd share. No judgement either way, brother.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Hey, Jim. Let me just make an addendum to my previous post. My view was given in response to your question, but it in no way, shape or form is intended to make you feel any guilt as regards whatever choice you make. I know how much you love your birds, and I think you know by now that I respect you quite a bit as a parront, so I figured it went without saying that I'd never think you'd do anything to harm them or force them into any situation. Obviously your consideration of clipping is completely motivated by love for your bird and a desire to strengthen his bond with your brother.

That said, I was addressing the strategy of creating a sense of dependence to achieve this aim. If you decide to go ahead with it, I'll still view it as you doing what you feel is best for all involved. There's no guilt to be found in that. My post is just to point out to you that there is another way to go, here. More difficult? Possibly. Heck, probably. Even most likely. But worth it, in my opinion.

But my opinion is just that. An opinion. It's what works for me and my flock, so I thought I'd share. No judgement either way, brother.

Stephen there was no offense taken either! If I didn't value the opinions of the folks here on this forum,I would not have even asked the question

All the replies had some valid statements which I am grateful for and like you said...they are all "opinions",none are right and none are wrong. In the end it IS my decision and I must choose what I think is best for my circumstances,and I thank EVERYONE for their opinions!


Jim

 

[Laurasea]

I'm late getting my vote in. With having a cat in the house, I vote no clip. Beebs is used to flying , after a clip it will take him a bit to figure out he can't fly, which will have him fluttering around, and likely draw the cats attention, even if it's an old cat... That helpless flutter on the floor will trigger the instincts..... Those are my thoughts.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

I'm late getting my vote in. With having a cat in the house, I vote no clip. Beebs is used to flying , after a clip it will take him a bit to figure out he can't fly, which will have him fluttering around, and likely draw the cats attention, even if it's an old cat... That helpless flutter on the floor will trigger the instincts..... Those are my thoughts.

Thank you Laura


Jim

 

[HEEDLESS]

In my option, I won't clip the wings' feathers. I don't want you have to end up like me.

HERE IS MY STORY:

Kise was clipped her wings feather three weeks prior to go home.

I was very upset and unhappy about that. I was like she is my and I was just waiting for her to ready to go home.

OK... When she got home, I took her to the vet for complete physical exam/labs, nails, place chip on her, etc. Her doctor called and said that everything is very healthy. the bill was over $450. (He put her to sleep 1st time)


A month latter, she keeps falling dawn from her cage because she could't fly to me, that make all her tail feather broken, and wings feather too. I called and get an appt. The doctor said he it's comment in bird, and will need to remove those broken feathers so the new ones can grow out, and have to do it in several times. The bill was few hundred (put her to sleep 2nd time)

In October, more broken feathers removed, labs, beaks/nails trimmed, and the bill was over $300. (put to sleep 3rd time)

She has an appt next month. I ask to labs with Vit D, VIT A, Liver function test, and few broken feathers needs to remove. The reason for this coming up appt is that she and discoloration feathers. I didn't notice until I saw the picture below. I am concerning and not too sure what to do, I hope this doctor can find the solution of her changing colors.


Anansi or anyone could help me on what else I need to tell the doctor, and what more labs need to be done?

PLEASE AND THANK YOU. VERY MUCH APPRECIATE.

​

 

[ChristaNL]

OMG Heedless... your vet torments birds just to make the feathers grow in faster?
You need a new vet- or a serious talk.
Those flighfeathers are embeded almost in the bone (attached to the periost- the sheet that covers all bones in the body) it is like puling out a humans fingernails and should ONLY been done in dire emergecies not for "convenience".
Building those feathers takes massive amounts of nutrients and energy from the birds body.
(Probably why the discolouration: you are exhausting her reserves and stressing her with those useless tormenting-pain sessions )

Just wait till the next natural mold and stop putting your bird through this torture.


(Yes it is an outrage they clipped her against your wishes- but now it is up to you to make sure she does not hurt herself while nature fixes that problem for you-- make a ladder so she can climb of the cage to reach you, do not let her crash&learn. PLze- she is a bird- do not make her hurt herself!)


=


Jim: as I stated before: I trust you, just wanted to point out some things.
I get that "my roof- my rules" is an important part, and we all want our birds to be liked and in their turn love the other people around us.


Your brother was already a favorite, your bird is now a bit unsure- new stuff all around- and will most likely get back to his normal David-loving behaviour once he feels more secure.
But if you feel it is better to just slow him down... (bird not brother )
I love you for the way you love your birds and all - no worries there, whatever you decide.

 

[LordTriggs]

Will Jim, you've always known my stance on clipping, all you can do is what you feel is the best for the Beebs. I'm always dubious of cats having known one who never showed interest in wild birds but on several occasions would wake up to find the garden littered with feathers and a very proud (but dimwitted) huntress stood with her prize, meanwhile the other 3 cats who did show interest never got a single one. Go figure.

Heedless, I'd definitely kick that vet to the curb. You're lucky your bird wasn't killed during the numerous anesthesia which was done for... a wing clip, which you were charged an insane price for. Most people here pay around $20 for a clip. That vet is ripping you off and putting an insane risk of death for your bird. A lot of vets don't use anesthesia unless absolutely necessary because a lot of birds don't wake up from it

 

[Anansi]

Heedless, I can't be absolutely certain from the pic provided. From what I can see, though, she might be plucking/over-preening. What I can say with certainty is that Christa and Triggs are 100% correct about that vet. Putting a bird under is a risk every time, and doing so repeatedly for so unnecessary a procedure seems to me to be either an issue of ineptitude or greed. The only time I'd look to pull a feather is in the case of a broken blood feather, in which case it is a necessity to save your bird's life.

It's actually quite likely the repeated pullings have driven her to over-preening/plucking, as the discomfort likely drives her up the wall.

*Note: This should really be a topic for it's own thread, but I've opted to leave it since you also addressed Jim's concerns as well... as did Christa and Triggs in their responses. But if you would like to discuss this further, you should start your own thread. If you do, you can link back to this one as a reference point. But I don't want this one to be derailed. Thanks for understanding.