Wing trim? for safety?

I am torn.....when I bring Oscar in to get his nails clipped do I go ahead and trim the wings?? I am sure it is a touchy subject for some, but I would still like to hear the pros/cons of each side.

I was told that he had his wings clipped last year in the Spring so it wont be the first time. He did fly around the house when he was at his previous owners house...and today when I held him he kept looking back at his cage, flapping a bit and wanting to fly back to it.

I have 4 dogs - St. Bernard, Golden Retriever, Australian Shepherd and a Siberian Husky. They are good dogs but I do not trust them around Oscar. If Oscar got onto the ground or needed to get away shouldn't he have wings to fly up and out of reach? Clipping his wings isnt going to STOP him from flying off the cage...wont he 'try' to fly anyway?

He is not the easiest bird to 'step up'....its a hit/miss issue right now. He will either strike or back away. We are still trying to learn eachother - but his reluctance to step up scares me because if he DOES fly away it is going to turn into a game...and he will win.

To clip or not to clip......<sigh>

Predators and prey do not mix. I would not even consider clipping with indoor dogs. Flying is the only means of escape he has. Have you tried stepping him up to a stick? Many birds are less reluctant to step to a stick than a hand And so long as you work with him every day, he will quickly learn to be reliable with stepping up. I would suggest putting your dogs outside or in another room for your daily training/bonding sessions. It also might make him more comfortable if they aren't in his line of sight.

I agree with April. We often forget that flying is a bird's natural instinct for escaping perceived dangers, and if you don't trust your dogs I wouldn't leave your bird unflighted. It's exactly as you said, he won't exactly realize he can't fly and chances are he'll try and take off anyway... potentially putting him in harms way.

It will probably feel like a game for awhile. My IRN is very much so like your Oscar when it comes to strangers. Stepping up becomes some kind of "catch-me" game where if someone unfamiliar comes too close and if I'm not holding him, he flies away. But over time he's learned how to step up to strangers without any of my help, and with their patience he eventually steps up without reluctance. It can definitely be done without clipping their wings, but it just takes more time and trust

If your bird is flighted, there is a greater chance of it flying into one of your dog's mouths at no fault of theirs. The flight of the bird will trigger, at least, a chase drive in your dogs. If you cannot completely control your dogs, then clip your bird with the hopes that, over time, better, safer relationships can be established.

I have three German Shepherd Dogs and three Amazons. No Predators. No Prey. (That implication is over the top). The only time my dogs act as predators is if someone unwelcome shows up at my door or if the gutsy groundhog tries his luck. My dogs are under complete control and my birds are all semi flighted - enough to land safely, should they take off. My dogs are aware of the birds, of course, but are expected to have NO interest in them.

The Amazons are out on perches, stands or whatever 2-4 hours each day. Movement of my German Shepherds is not altered or restricted, at any point, when my birds are out.

For now, not necessarily always, but FOR NOW, until you can establish better control, routines, etc for ALL of your animals, clip your bird. With four dogs in the home, your diligence is paramount.

I, for one, would step up your dog behavior expectations around the bird and limit the bird's movement in the interest of preventing a bad situation, rather than hoping a single parrot would have the "luck" of an escape. Leaving your bird flighted, just in case it needs an "escape" is something, as a responsible pet owner, I simply couldn't begin to consider.

Any one of my dogs, at any time, could snap a flying parrot 4-5-6 feet out of the air in a split second. The bird wouldn't have a chance.

Mitigate what you can, now.

Best of Luck with your dogs and your bird.

I agree with all of the above. That said, if you DO decide you need to clip for whatever reason, clipping doesn't have to be a completely "either/or" thing. You can have just a few feathers clipped. A lot of people call this being "semi-flighted." It depends on a lot of factors, but my DYH still gets around really well this way. You may be able to find a happy medium that helps you handle your bird safely but also lets him protect himself.

Oh man...harder decision then I thought. When I had my CAG it was just him and I...didn't have to worry about it. This time around there are doors that can be left open in the spring/summer, dogs hanging around, kids not paying attention. I can fix the doors so they swing shut automatically and add the additional hanging screen to prevent escape...but...I cant prevent the dogs (100%) that they will not go after the bird nor can prevent the bird from flying off of the cage/perch/arm when he is out. I will do more soul-searching and see what is best for Oscar.

Imh.

You brought the bird into your dog's environment; you didn't bring four dogs into a single bird environment. Any adjustments, even temporary, should be least disruptive to the dogs. The bird should be made to acquiesce in this instance, not your dogs. Although, your diligence is still of the utmost importance.

Bear in mind, too, birds tend to recognize quickly that their wings have been altered and do become less inclined to try to take full flight. Mine, semi flighted, rarely leave their tree stands, perches, etc. They've got plenty to do and show little interest in flying off.

Anyway, you do what's good for your animals and your situation.

You can, eventually, progress into a full flighted bird with less than interested dogs. It's not difficult.

Lastly, if you're worried about possible doors / screen doors being left open ..... There's really little else to consider.

Again, best of luck.

"Kids going in and out" was one of the biggest factors in our decision to have our birds semi-flighted. While we as adults are very conscious about whether the birds are out of their cages when we go in and out, kids, maybe not so much. Our two kids have learned to be very conscious of it, but I can't control what their friends do as much when neighborhood kids are around.

Clip or not to clip?? The first consideration is the safety of the bird. All the feel good "i want him to fly" means little if it kills him. You know your situation better than us, do what is best for your bird.

I fully agree with Damicodric & Henpecked and really can't understand why you're not thinking about additional training for Oscar.

All four of your dogs are predators and all capable of grabbing a bird that has had its only means of escape severely limited and though I'm not sure of the St. Bernard, the other three have the ability to grab an accessible bird out of the air, especially when they are flying, fully flighted, in the constrained area of a home environment where there are the flight impediments of furniture, walls, hanging light fixtures, doors, wall outsets, etc. so, I think I would be more concerned about increasing Oscar's training instead of thinking about limiting his natural self-protection, because it was hard for me to get him to step up...or...I would be thinking about closeting my dogs either outside or at least in another room while Oscar is out of his cage.....

When birds are integrated into a family, they sometimes get complacent and forget that their furry housemates are really predators that can quickly change colors.....


Just my thoughts.....

weco said:

I fully agree with Damicodric & Henpecked and really can't understand why you're not thinking about additional training for Oscar.

Click to expand...

Yikes. Not sure why you assumed this? I never said anything about not having any additional training for Oscar. I have only had him since Sunday...just a couple days....about 96 hours now. lol

I am seeing that he is ever such a gentleman and good natured. The training will be continuous with both him and the dogs...as always.

Oscar and I are learning each other and it will take some time until I know what his behaviors are - he just might stick to his cage/perch and never fly again in the house. He may take off every chance he gets as the 'honey-moon' period comes to an end or he becomes more curious. lol Only time will tell.

I always ask for all opinions - in these situations there isn't a right or wrong - but I think its vitally important to hear the pros/cons because I might not of thought of it myself or may not have looked at the situation from the outside in.

I didn't have to make a decision with my CAG on wing trimming (nor my smaller birds of the past). This situation is new to me and I really am trying to evaluate my situation and value ALL of the input.

LoraMonique

If you're worried about your bird's safety, then don't have the dogs out when the bird is out, and vice versa. Clipped or not, a bird the size of an Amazon is probably not going to be able to escape a dog in a typical home.

I really do not understand why everyones reactions are to clip the bird. It would be unquestionable to hobble the dogs so that they couldn't chase the bird. You can apply training and modify the environment for the bird to keep it safe without altering it physically.

Personally, I wouldn't clip my bird's wings, maybe if I had to because of a certain situation which I haven't encountered yet, but until then, I wouldn't. I try to bird proof my surroundings as best I can instead.

Considering you have 4 dogs, I wouldn't have the wings clipped.
Even if the bird can still fly a bit, usually. They seem to have a hard time to elevate flight and tend to just go up slightly, then down.
At least Kiwiberry did this when she first started flying, she'd go up just very very slightly, then forward and down. She can go higher and further now, but she can't get anywhere near as high up as a fully flighted bird.

Sorry if you were offended, that was not my intention. Your post sounded like you were indecisive about clipping and Oscar again with your four legged friends, it just sounded like you might be thinking toward the clip, figuring Oscar had experience with having been clipped.....

I know clipping is a very controversial topic, but I know of a military macaw that had its head crushed by his best friend, a miniature chow...the two were playing & the owner was doing laundry...she heard the dog barking, looked in the hall & saw her bird flying around, apparently teasing the dog, the bird flew into the laundry room, then out of it, with the dog chasing it and because these two did this all the time, she didn't really think anything about it until she came out of the laundry room and found her macaw on the couch barely alive.....although she & her neighbor rushed the bird to her vet, the bird died of a crushed skull.....they figure that in their playing, the dog got so excited that he must have snapped at the bird in their play and being friends, the bird did not fear the dog as a predator or potential predator...and that memory popped into my head reading your post, causing mine.

Now that you are a bird person again, you will probably take more notice of the stories from those who believe that they can successfully parent a homogenized animal family.....

Again, I am sorry if you took my reply personally.....

Damicodric said:

If your bird is flighted, there is a greater chance of it flying into one of your dog's mouths at no fault of theirs. The flight of the bird will trigger, at least, a chase drive in your dogs. If you cannot completely control your dogs, then clip your bird with the hopes that, over time, better, safer relationships can be established.

I have three German Shepherd Dogs and three Amazons. No Predators. No Prey. (That implication is over the top). The only time my dogs act as predators is if someone unwelcome shows up at my door or if the gutsy groundhog tries his luck. My dogs are under complete control and my birds are all semi flighted - enough to land safely, should they take off. My dogs are aware of the birds, of course, but are expected to have NO interest in them.

The Amazons are out on perches, stands or whatever 2-4 hours each day. Movement of my German Shepherds is not altered or restricted, at any point, when my birds are out.

For now, not necessarily always, but FOR NOW, until you can establish better control, routines, etc for ALL of your animals, clip your bird. With four dogs in the home, your diligence is paramount.

I, for one, would step up your dog behavior expectations around the bird and limit the bird's movement in the interest of preventing a bad situation, rather than hoping a single parrot would have the "luck" of an escape. Leaving your bird flighted, just in case it needs an "escape" is something, as a responsible pet owner, I simply couldn't begin to consider.

Any one of my dogs, at any time, could snap a flying parrot 4-5-6 feet out of the air in a split second. The bird wouldn't have a chance.

Mitigate what you can, now.

Best of Luck with your dogs and your bird.

Click to expand...

I find this post quite confusing, first it is says 'that the bird has a greater chance of flying into the dogs mouth if it's flighted which is not the dogs fault'. But then the following sentence states, The flight of the bird will trigger, at least, a chase drive in your dogs.
Like all predators, dogs will focus on young, sick or weak prey, and a clipped bird flies like it's young or sick or weak. Think about it.

Next is, if you can't control your dog, then clip your bird and hope that over time better, safer relationships will be established. Why is the bird being clipped when it's the dog that you can't control. All you have done is remove the bird ability to escape quickly when the dog should have been remove form the environment. This just doesn't make sense and then you hoping for a better, safer relationship.

Then you say your dogs are under complete control but then state "Any one of my dogs, at any time, could snap a flying parrot 4-5-6 feet out of the air in a split second". this indicates that the dogs still have a degree of unpredictability and are not under complete control.

I think that a flighted bird would have a greater chance of quickly escaping a dog and would be smart enough not to fly into a dogs mouth.

rather then relying on hope, luck or behaviour expectations. I would simply remove the dogs access to the bird when out. When Delfin and Mulawa are out, Tequila goes down stairs and spends time with the 2nd son and when tequila is upstairs then Delfin and Mulawa are first put in the cage.
they still interact but there is a barrier in between them. This is not done for tequilas safety but for Delfin and Mulawa safety.

There are people who are pro-wing clipping and there are people anti-wing clipping. do lots of research, weight up all the pros and cons and only then you can make a informed decision. This has to be your decision.

lmh said:

I am torn.....when I bring Oscar in to get his nails clipped do I go ahead and trim the wings?? I am sure it is a touchy subject
.....
To clip or not to clip......<sigh>

Click to expand...

Just a 'little' touchy. :54:

Here are some threads for you. This subject has been covered until we're all (almost) blue in the face, and more often than not, threads needed to be shut down due to some members' rather strong 'opinions' on said subject.

http://www.parrotforums.com/new-mem...o-question-clipping-wings-vs-full-flight.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-health-care/19291-clipping-wings.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-health-care/3587-clipping-their-wings-unhealthy.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/41983-flighted-vs-clipped-wings.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/conures/35304-clipped-wings-after-being-fully-flighted-almost-year.html
http://www.parrotforums.com/congo-timneh-greys/25893-flighted-clipped.html

I could go on...and on...but there's a good start.

henpecked said:

Clip or not to clip?? The first consideration is the safety of the bird. All the feel good "i want him to fly" means little if it kills him. You know your situation better than us, do what is best for your bird.

Click to expand...

:35: :respect: :worship2: :emoticonc

PERFECTLY said, Capt!

Delfin.

Having the ability to do something and not doing it IS the essence of control. Is it not? My German Shepherds could shred any indoor parrot flying by - if by chance, my RLA or my DYA or my YSA should happen to take off, my dogs literally do not move. Control. Hope that clears it up for ya!

So, semi flighting my birds with control over the "unpredictability" of my dogs works for me and always has - and mainly, works for my Amazons and GSD's.

You do what's good for you. I prefer to enjoy my animals, as often as I can. Its "confusing" to me to lock one up or put one back in a cage, because the other is out. That's laziness - someone just unwilling to commit the time in creating harmony in the home.

It's all about the safety of the bird, but that doesn't mean confining four dogs or throwing them outside, simply because the bird is out. You gotta be better than that.

It has nothing to do with good owners or lazy owners, it has to do with the unpredictability of animals and the fact dogs are natural predators and parrots are natural prey animals. Not to mention, parrots are very similar in shape and size to a large dog toy. Better yet, they move! It takes some work to get that situation to not be dangerous, and for a few weeks or months, yes, the dogs may need to be out of the room while the bird is is being trained and getting familiar with his new home. Have you not heard the countless stories of new birds taking off (even ones with light clips) in their first few weeks in a new home and hitting a wall or flying into a window because they're scared, unfamiliar with the new home or do not want to listen to the new owner? Most birds can survive that, but it's very common. What happens when the bird takes off out of fear or out of defiance of his new owner and straight into the mouthes of 4 huge dogs who might think someone just tossed them a new toy? This bird needs time and training in as safe as possible environment, as well as the dogs needing some new training while the bird is safely in his cage to stay away from the cage/bird before any "harmony" can happen:20: I'd give it a few months at least before anyone was "out together" to give everyone a chance to learn the new rules and become familiar/uninterested in each other.

Well we got our quaker clipped. Actually, at six feathers trimmed per side, she still can get airborne if she wants, but it precludes the paniced flying all over the room, knocking into windows/mirrors/ceiling fans that she did when she was fully flighted. She will now climb or flutter down and walk if she wants to go.

The only other animal in the house is an aquatic turtle and neither has expressed any interest in the other.

Clipping is a personal choice... THERE IS NO RIGHT OR WRONG ANSWER!

Everyone has their own reasons- it does not mean that any of us are lazy or our home is not in harmony.

Wendy provided a plethora of links for previous clipping threads- please read them or do your own search of the forum.

This thread is now closed!!