Bluffing/training/reinforcement/brain spaces continued - MonicaMc

I figured I should stop threadjacking.

MonicaMc said:

Lapis said:

is bluffing different? she's my first bird since i was like 7 so i don't really have much experience
but i don't ignore her "bluffs"! she's my angel and i hold her and talk sweetly to her every single day ♥

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I wouldn't call it bluffing. I would call it a form of communication. They could be saying that they're not ready, they don't want to, maybe they don't understand what it is you are trying to ask them and they're just uncomfortable with the situation.

itchyfeet said:

I'd call it puberty more than bluffing - I don't ignore it - but nor do I give into it. I read the cues my parrots are giving before I ask something of them, but once I ask something of them, I stick to my guns and biting or threatening to bite is not going to get them what they want. But you've got to be able to read your bird - knowing your bird, and then timing is critical when asking them to participate.

In my country it seems so many rehomes are from situations where mutual respect hasn't been applied and the parrot has learned to call the shots over their humans. Lose lose all around.

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Sounds kind of like dominance or flooding techniques. If positive reinforcement was used instead, the birds would happily oblige rather than attempt to bite or threaten. Also through positive reinforcement, you'd learn to back off or try again later (which could be in 3 seconds or 3 minutes), or find something of higher value for the bird to have them oblige.

With training, you *WANT* the bird to do what you want, not be forced into submission to do it.

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hmm I both agree with what you are saying, yet disagree with the tone in which you describe what I'm doing with my birds - we're huge on clicker and positive reinforcement training. I'm qualified in educational pyschology (humans) and by nature follow similar principles. If we allow aggressive behaviour as a way to get back into the cage/stop work with the birds, are we not then encouraging aggressive behaviour...? As I said, I'm very careful to pick my time when I ask anything of my birds.

The situation so rarely happens at ours, but my in-laws too for example can go through 'stage's or moods. He knows me very well. I was once asked to move him from stand to cage - he gave me quite the warning pinch. I told him in a firm voice that it was cage time and he would be stepping up, without moving my arm. He hopped up fine and went away nicely....

To be fair all of my birds have all come to me young, with clicker training, and when it's safe to do so, with the freedom to come and go from their cages as they please. I've never had them not want to come, but I've also never responded to/rewarded antisocial behaviour.

I think I like the way you think Monica, I'm really keen to keep hearing your insights and nut this out a bit further! Am I on the right track?

I love you, Monica... do I detect a background in applied behavior analysis? You're good.

Itchy... thank you!

Thread-jacking... aha!

And then there is yours truly... the surrendered domestic abusee. I do whatever the Rb wants... and there is peace in the valley. Although not much dignity... for ME! I see it as a matter of MORE surrender, and LESS training, sometimes. Worked for me. if you can be more assertive/effective, I salute you!

P.S.
Over the years, I have been very embarassed/downhearted/sad about having a pet that was so... weird!
Mean, messy, loud, demanding... not like other folks' pups and kitties, for SURE, but...
Over the years, I've accepted that I have an amazing half-wild being who loves me and perches on my hand and speaks to me!
It's magic. Isn't it?

With your educational background it is easy for you to see and understand the great problem individuals providing advise on the Parrot Forums face. The lack of information compared to the depth of the question asked and its a wonder anyone would step forward to address the question at all. Add to that fact that many questions, once addressed receive zero confirmation that the answer was helpful. Zero! To that point, your understanding of the importance of feedback, which allows one to adjust is missing far too often.

In addition to the information side, is the structure of the entire process. Addressing an individual's question in a face to face with the subject matter (the Parrot) there i.e. hands and eyes on the Parrot is far easier to see and address specific issues. Especially behavioral!

Last, but clearly not the least is this process of 'reaction' reply in a typed format. A process that lends itself to any number of problems in transfer the idea to words. A slight shift is wording and its comes across anywhere from disregard, to disrespectful, to demeaning, or with luck, Kind Hearted.

My point in all of this, with very very few exceptions, the responses by the vast majority of the members are based in and around being helpful. Based in the deep concern for the well being of the most common thing we all have, our shared Love for our Parrots. When Posts are read from this point of view, it commonly changes (smooths /softens) the wording.

I hope this in some small way helps understand the variation in the responses you have received.

OR, maybe I just missed the foundation of this Thread - if so: oooops!

Beautiful, Mr. Sailboat, beautiful. And thank you.

Original thread: http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/63756-do-other-birds-get-along.html

Sailboat I haven't received any responses yet to my thoughts, except for Monica's. I figured I'd better switch to a new thread because I was posting on someone else's and felt that I was taking it off tangent.

I started this one to figure out if we're on the same pageish with how we think and respond to birds/or whether I need to adjust what I do a little. I feel like the theory was similar and yet it it was quite off when she told me how she interpreted it....if I'm responding to certain behaviours incorrectly I need to work through that.

Academics vs. the written word vs. practise can differ so much and relies so often on a good hearty dose of intuition. Critical/reflective discussions on forums go a huge way into refining what we do and how we do it, hence continuing this in it's own place

Edited to add: I think I'm trying to establish wether or not a bird can push boundaries. Is there a difference between discomfort and being naughty? For example - harness training - not natural, often discomfort, therefore slow, steady, loads of positive reinforcement. Refusing to step up off a play stand when it's routine cage time after an afternoon out? I'd stay firm - that'd be boundary pushing....

When you have a fully flighted, fearless parrot, I think you forfeit access to a lot of behavioral tactics. I actually did applied behavioral analysis for a living before retiring, so I'm fluent in behavior-speak, but I guess I have relinquished control of variables that could address boundary-pushing (and I'm okay with that). I spent a good amount of time being ashamed of it, though, and I feel better just admitting it. i still enjoy a good discussion of behavioral dynamics and tactics, though, especially with those who have enough control (via clipped wings or other elements) to implement modifications.

I don't have any formal training in behavior analysis and modification, however, I spent a decade teaching in an inner city middle school in a gang controlled neighborhood. Getting students to actually learn required a crash course in behavior modification in a population not known for being cooperative. A lot of how I deal with birds comes from techniques I used in my classroom: slow, steady, gentle, lots of positive reinforcement for even the smallest positive behavior.

Like I had mentioned, it sounds kind of like dominance/flooding techniques. Not to say that you use those approaches in training, just, things might go a little smoother with some modifications?


If we allow aggressive behaviour as a way to get back into the cage/stop work with the birds, are we not then encouraging aggressive behaviour...? As I said, I'm very careful to pick my time when I ask anything of my birds.

Ideally, you would be avoiding that behavior. By allowing it to happen, you are thus "encouraging" it. That doesn't mean you ignore the bird when they bite or nip you, it means that you avoid getting that bite or nip in the first place.

If the bird doesn't want to step up right then, you can try walking away for a few seconds, maybe grabbing a few treats, and asking again with the treat. Bird steps up, YAY! Hooray!!!!! Good Bird!!!! Here's a treat! Or maybe it's scritches?


The situation so rarely happens at ours, but my in-laws too for example can go through 'stage's or moods. He knows me very well. I was once asked to move him from stand to cage - he gave me quite the warning pinch. I told him in a firm voice that it was cage time and he would be stepping up, without moving my arm. He hopped up fine and went away nicely....

In a situation like this, I kind of feel like you may be unintentionally teaching him to pinch before stepping up. That pinch, over time, could possibly lead to biting. A behavior we don't want.





Without any real intention to do so, I've taught Casey, my first tiel, some recall/come and station training. I can put my hand in the air and she'll fly to my hand. She then gets scritches and/or a treat. This morning, she was actually chewing on something I didn't want her to chew on (my fault for leaving it there, granting her easy access!) and when she started chewing on it, I said "Casey!". She stopped what she was doing and walked towards me. Since it was feeding time and I had just finished filling the dishes with fresh foods, I offered her my hand, which she promptly flew to, then set her on one of the dishes so she could start eating. I then placed the dishes inside the cage.

I do understand there may be times when one may need to be stern, or even in an emergency (i.e. house on fire) when things are chaotic and you do what you need to do to ensure everyone is safe, but, as I'm sure you are already aware, training helps even in some unpredictable situations!



Just thinking that if you need to leave at 11am, you don't wait until 10:55am to get your bird back in the cage - you try 15 or 30 minutes before you need to go! Bird doesn't want to step up right now? Ok, fine. What is more rewarding to the bird? Is there a treat that the bird would happily accept? What about 5 to 10 minutes of one on one physical attention before going back into the cage? Maybe it's a treat or a nut also waiting inside the cage?



As much as Casey enjoys being outside of her cage, she also happily goes back in! I don't always stop the physical attention on the outside of the cage - I'll also continue giving her scritches even when she's inside the cage. She's just kind of happy go lucky!

Okay that makes sense! I'm much clearer, thanks

GaleriaGila said:

When you have a fully flighted, fearless parrot, I think you forfeit access to a lot of behavioral tactics...

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Hey, Abigail! Just now happened across this thread and wanted to belatedly address this part of your post. When the focus is on association and positive reinforcement, a fully flighted fearless parrot is every bit as trainable as a clipped parrot. The key is in the realization that you should not be seeking mastery or domination over your bird so much as an alignment of desires and goals.

Recall for my birds is pretty much 100%. (I include Maya in that even though she won't fly to me... as she won't fly anywhere. Lol! But if her feet can get her to me, she's there every time.) Is this due to my dominance over them? Not at all. It is because I have aligned our desires. Simply put, I've gotten them to want what I want. So we work together toward a shared goal.

In this way, Jolly's flight skills are never an issue. (Thankfully. He doesn't have the nickname Barry Allen/The Flash for nothing. Catching him against his will would largely prove an exercise in futility... not to mention hilarity at my expense.) I don't have to chase him around because he wants to do as I ask. Why? Because he has come to associate doing so with the occurrence of good things. So whenever I ask him to fly to me, or to his perch, or to fetch a ring of a particular color, or to shake my hand, etc... he's not only wholly onboard, but eager to comply.

In fact, there are times where we'll just be sitting there and Jolly will nudge my cheek repeatedly in the hopes of getting me to start a training session. Or Maya will lightly beak my finger and then just stare expectantly at me. "Dude! Get up! Let's go!" Lol!

I guess what I'm saying is that it is the building of a specific relationship dynamic rather than the assertion of control, and as such flight capability need not limit trainability. You know?