Yellow Naped Amazon...biting/crunching help

[Dopey]

Absolutely get him his out of cage time! That would probably be a big contributing factor to his crabbiness. I would also suggest when he is out, if he is not step up or stick trained yet, to keep a large, clean but can 'get some holes' towel handy so you can towel him if he will not go home voluntarily (try a treat in his dish first, but you may have to get him with a towel). How is his toy situation too? Most amazons appreciate having 3-4 variedlarge parrot toys in their cage at any one time. Try one foot toy, one forging toy and one shredding/chewing toy to keep him occupied in the cage(if he doesn't already have them)

Can you suggest a good "foot toy" to put in her cage.

I try not to do too much to the cage because when I rearranged some things in the cage the girl friend wasn't too happy about it. However, I guess since I want to help the bird I need to take a different approach.

 

[Dopey]

The bird most definitely needs the out of cage time if you can do it safely. As a side note to this, flying is the best form of exercise for this bird and will help to reduce the aggression.

Ever been around an hormonal Amazon that Kamikaze's your butt? Of course flying is a great form of exercise, but not if the bird is looking at you as the "bullseye". Flying does NOT reduce aggression if the bird truly has it out for you. (For that matter, clipping the wings doesn't either, it will only result in the bird chasing you via foot.) I've been in those shoes, and it was truly scary. :54: However, I preferred the bird on the ground vs mid air.

Tell you what. I will try working with her tonight (in the cage first) and see how she reacts. If the reaction seems like she is friendly I will let her out of her cage and on top of her cage. She has a play top on top of her cage. If she decides to fly to the top of the other play stand (not the U2s cage) that will be okay too. I will have a towel on my shoulder for any shoulder/neck landings.

I just remembered - a few weeks ago when I was letting her out she was flying all over the house. Is that okay? The only problem I have is that I don't trust her not to hurt my cats if she should get to them first.

 

[Kiwibird]

Given the facts of this unique situation, I would probably try to treat the bird more like it was yours for the remaining month, but ultimately, it's not your job to train his bird. I don't know how he would take it or if you want to put in the effort, but it may be a nice gesture to do some of your own research into some of the different methods of training, find a method that sounds good to you and purchase a book on it. Get the bird introduced to the new method and offer the book and a bird well on it's way when your son take the bird home IF YOU WANT and feel your son would not be offended. I would also go to petco or petsmart and see if they have some toys on sale. They usually do, and even if they are the kind that can be ripped up quickly, the bird isn't going to be with you very much longer. It's your sons responsibility to buy the bird expensive, durable toys once the bird is in his care. I hope he does. Toys are a necessary and major expense that comes along with parrot ownership. For the birds well being, she needs to come out, especially if she will step up to a stick. You are absolutely right not to have the 2 birds interact, and it may be best if your U2 can go in another room all together while the zon is out so that potential issue is eliminated.

How does your son feel about clipping? That is a nasty topic in the avian community, and you may very well start a family rift if you clip the bird and he didn't approve. I'd be sure before doing that. If he is not willing to have his bird clipped, Sandybee has a great suggestion about the towel and ducking. Clean up the bottoms of your winter boots so they aren't dirtying the carpet and wear those to protect your toes. And again, be confident, show no fear and give a firm command if needed. Amazons act like big bullies, but at the end of the day, they back down and are actually big sissies when their intended 'victim' does not tolerate their nonsense. Best of luck on the countdown. This must be a difficult situation for you.

 

[Kiwibird]

Absolutely get him his out of cage time! That would probably be a big contributing factor to his crabbiness. I would also suggest when he is out, if he is not step up or stick trained yet, to keep a large, clean but can 'get some holes' towel handy so you can towel him if he will not go home voluntarily (try a treat in his dish first, but you may have to get him with a towel). How is his toy situation too? Most amazons appreciate having 3-4 variedlarge parrot toys in their cage at any one time. Try one foot toy, one forging toy and one shredding/chewing toy to keep him occupied in the cage(if he doesn't already have them)

Can you suggest a good "foot toy" to put in her cage.

I try not to do too much to the cage because when I rearranged some things in the cage the girl friend wasn't too happy about it. However, I guess since I want to help the bird I need to take a different approach.

Probably a good skill to learn how to make your own toys and what materials to use (hit, plastic baby toys from goodwill are great, along with straws, large buttons and beads, cardboard scraps and cupcake wrappers).

Check out Michelle's (Percysmom), who makes *amazing* toys for her bird-http://parroteeringonashoestring.wordpress.com/2014/05/25/freecheapre-purposed-toy-parts/

These are some foot toys I made the other day for my amazon (all parts recycled from old toys, from the dollar store or goodwill)-http://www.parrotforums.com/do-yourself/44904-made-some-awesome-new-toys-too.html

And theres an entire, full of great toy ideas DIY section too-http://www.parrotforums.com/do-yourself/

If you just want to order something, here are a few suggestions off amazon as well (though I really do suggest you start making toys, it will save you a lot of money in the long run with the cockatoo)-

[ame="http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00GWX6MPG/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_S_ttl?_encoding=UTF8&colid=1CZYV9UV9WKC3&coliid=I6V6WTL2U9FOD"]Amazon.com : Chandalier Bird Toy Parrot Cage Craft Toys Cages African Grey Conure Cockatiel : Pet Supplies[/ame]
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Instinct-Rythemwise-Amazons-Similar/dp/B000HHM1LM/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_13?ie=UTF8&refRID=0AQJHG6SQ8J60HSQSFYS"]Amazon.com : Nature's Instinct Rythemwise Rain Stick for Amazons, Macaws, and Similar Birds : Pet Toys : Pet Supplies[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Super-Creations-7-Inch-Forager-Large/dp/B003HKOXJ4/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_6?ie=UTF8&refRID=1QFN2XYE7VTP2DJH0W8M]Amazon.com : Super Bird Creations 12 by 7-Inch 4 Way Forager Bird Toy, Large : Pet Toys : Pet Supplies[/ame]
(you put treats in the little cups on this one, and the bird has to work to get them out)
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Natures-Instinct-Foragewise-Conures-Amazons/dp/B000O9SY6O/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_11?ie=UTF8&refRID=0QHW4FQAEZ2NFPF51Q1Y"]Amazon.com : Nature's Instinct Foragewise Turn'n Learn Logs for Conures, Amazons, Macaws, and Similar Birds : Pet Toys : Pet Supplies[/ame]
[ame=http://www.amazon.com/Super-Creations-3-Inch-Cascade-Medium/dp/B003HKSSCM/ref=pd_sim_petsupplies_63?ie=UTF8&refRID=0CH526JQJQ0HZ69XDVRV]Amazon.com : Super Bird Creations 9 by 3-Inch Cascade Bird Toy, Medium : Pet Toys : Pet Supplies[/ame]

 

[Dopey]

Not for certain on the clipping but I don't think he has a problem with it. He has a Tiel and 2 Budgies and they both get clipped. (Those birds are currently living with him.)

As for toys, I just haven't sat myself down and started making toys. I have two small bins full of things to make toys but haven't put them together yet.

Yep - I know he needs toys.

Thanks for the info for the toys.

 

[MonicaMc]

The reason I suggest the parrot wizard is he offers FAST tips to get a bird to step up and reducing biting, which would be more appropriate given your situation and relationship with this bird. Secondly, IMOmost people offer their birds way more food than necessary, and no harm is going to come of cutting 20% of the excessive amounts of food being offered each day. Rationing is extremely unpopular because offering an appropriate amount of food looks like too little when it is in fact a healthy portion and not anything you need to concern yourself with for the short time you have this bird. I definitely don't want to get started on a food rationing debate:52:. Since you won't have this parrot much longer and it's not really your responsibility to look into how much he should be eating, just try training sessions BEFORE you give him his nighttime meals so he's more hungry and more likely to work for food. You can still feed him dinner afterwards, but the whole point of the cutting food intake is that food is a strong motivator for the bird to learn. And be sure he gets to come out for a few hours each day along with having some fun toys. An occupied bird is a well-beahved bird

Food management and weight management are not the same thing. Michael also uses both incorrectly. It's one thing to feed your bird 80% of what he'd normally eat in a day and feed the other 20% as training treats, but it's an entirely different concept to actually *reduce* the bird's body weight by up to 20%. If a yellow nape, on average, weighs 500 grams, a 10% drop in body weight is 50 grams. A 20% drop in weight is 100 grams. An avian vet will tell you that if a bird loses 10% of their body weight, take them in to the vets office!

Here's some quotes from Michael Sazhin's book.

.....Under this example, the parrot should be losing weight at approximately 8 grams per week or a gram a day. This is the method for making the calculations for a 10% weight reduction for your bird.

You may notice that the parrot's weight does not begin going down for a while even though you keep offering less and less food. What will start to happen is the parrot will become more resourceful and carefully eat its food rather than making a big mess.....

...it gives a parrot a task to put its mind to and encourages food fot to beak coordination to eat carefully. My parrots eat their pellets carefully over their dishes to ensure that all crumbs fall back into the dish to be consumed later. After every meal, my parrots lick their dishes clean and there are no leftovers or messes to contend with.

If the parrot already has a rounded belly and visible keel, unless it is emaciated, 5-10% further reduction will yield better training motivation and do no harm.

Who defines that your bird is overweight? Who says they are overweight by 10% or more? Michael Sazhin? Is he an avian vet? NO! Is he an animal trainer with years of experience training a variety of animals? NO! Does he have any credentials? NOT REALLY! He's an amateur in the training world, and he's taken some advice from Bird Tricks and forwarded that info on in his own recommendations. Bird Tricks don't have any credentials either! Bird Tricks are sales people! They are entrepreneurs.

And Michael is recommending reducing a birds body weight by 10%... and an additional 5-10% would cause "no harm". Seriously? I'm sorry, but that is *NOT* a healthy practice!


No well respected animal trainer out there recommends reducing an animals weight so drastically! Not only that, but they wouldn't keep their animals underweight! A good trainer would work towards having an animal that works *above* their free-fed weight - if weight management is used at all. If weight management is not used, then the trainer would try to keep their animal around their free-fed weight - which of course can vary depending upon time of year, exercise and other factors.



(Please note, I do not have any problem with people using food management as a method to train their birds - I have an issue with someone recommending starving a bird in order to get a bird motivated to train)

Hi All - this bird does step up and steps down to get back into her cage. Arm and perch (okay - a long stick because it is a long way across my U2's cage). She takes treats from me - the yogurt covered mango treats - very nicely. I haven't tried anything smaller. Those work so I'm sticking with them. She only eats the yogurt anyway.

She has a fairly new toy (she is just now really playing with it) that she is just now learning to tear apart. She has several perches and a swing. There are a couple of other toys in there but I can't remember exactly what I have mentioned to my son several times that they need to be replaced. I tried an even stronger hint and replaced some of the rope on the swing but the old toy is still there. I honestly do try to make this my son's responsiblity. I do feed her(fresh food twice a day) and give her fresh water.

I know her favorite nut is a peanut and I have just recently gotten her off of seed diet onto a pellet diet. My son's girlfriend works with her with foot toys when she has her out of the cage. If I'm in the room with them though she prefers to be on me. She has that look in her eye and then she either walks over to me or flies to me.

Should I just bite the bullet and treat her as if she is mine and let my son deal with her when he takes her in July? (I know it was mentioned that he should stay away but I don't think that is going to happen and our relationship isn't strong enough for me to mention it. We are just restoring our relationship and he is my stepson/son.) I feel sorry for the bird.

Yep - a little over a month and she is gone. And I have told them both that she can't return.

I honestly don't see any harm in starting the training process, then incorporating your son and his girlfriend into the training regime you started! It's actually better if birds learn to accept being trained by various people rather than just one person, as it's a way to socialize them and teach them to not be 'one person birds'.



An aggressive bird that flies to attack people, then is clipped is still an aggressive bird. Clipping them only results in them chasing your feet instead of your head. It doesn't really "solve" the issue, hence why I recommended training without clipping first.


What about using small amount of nuts or yogurt to train her? It should be small enough that she'll eat it quickly and wont put her reward in her foot. If it's large enough for her to clasp it in her feet to eat it, the reward is too large.

 

[Dopey]

I can't cut up the yogurt treats so I will have to go and get some plain yogurt at the store...hope she likes it. As for nuts...yep got plenty of them and I and cut those up too.

Training will resume tonight...or at least us getting to know each other again.

Thanks everyone.

 

[BEWolf]

JerseyWendy ; As a matter of fact I have and it is not only scary, it is damned dangerous. And given flying time on a daily basis does in my opinion reduce hormonal aggression, but I only recommended it if they could do so safely.

MonicaMc ; You are entitled to your own opinion, but I know Michael Sazhin and I have never heard nor read anything from him about starving your bird. So if you have proof of this please show it to me. Just for the record I don't always agree with him or his proposed methods. And since you are going on about credentials could you please show me yours as well?

 

[MonicaMc]

I don't claim to be a trainer, nor do I sell anything.


If you want to see where he recommends reducing a birds weight, then purchase his book.

 

[Birdman666]

T
Bird Tricks don't have any credentials either! Bird Tricks are sales people! They are entrepreneurs.

And Michael is recommending reducing a birds body weight by 10%... and an additional 5-10% would cause "no harm". Seriously? I'm sorry, but that is *NOT* a healthy practice!


No well respected animal trainer out there recommends reducing an animals weight so drastically! Not only that, but they wouldn't keep their animals underweight! A good trainer would work towards having an animal that works *above* their free-fed weight - if weight management is used at all. If weight management is not used, then the trainer would try to keep their animal around their free-fed weight - which of course can vary depending upon time of year, exercise and other factors.

(Please note, I do not have any problem with people using food management as a method to train their birds - I have an issue with someone recommending starving a bird in order to get a bird motivated to train)

I honestly don't see any harm in starting the training process, then incorporating your son and his girlfriend into the training regime you started! It's actually better if birds learn to accept being trained by various people rather than just one person, as it's a way to socialize them and teach them to not be 'one person birds'.

An aggressive bird that flies to attack people, then is clipped is still an aggressive bird. Clipping them only results in them chasing your feet instead of your head. It doesn't really "solve" the issue, hence why I recommended training without clipping first.

With the bird tricks quote THANK YOU... AND HELL NO, YOU SHOULD NOT STARVE A BIRD TO CHANGE IT'S BEHAVIOR... So we are in 100% agreement on that one. And yeah, if he's too weak from starvation to bite anymore because he is lethargic and slowly dying MIGHT not be the best "no bite" method to use!

I have one word of caution on the second bit of advice, and that is that if overbonding has already taken place with the son, then working with the bird around the son could get her bit until the behavior has been modified. Other than that, I agree with this as well...

We can agree to disagree with that last bit of advice.

Clipping gives an attitude adjustment, and prevents them from dive bombing and facial attacks. NOT MY FACE, BIRD! Secondly, if he's on the floor and chasing my feet, not running away, and using a pillow to back his little butt up stops that behavior INSTANTLY! I know you don't like that method...

I wish I had my video camera the other day because I could have shown you the PERFECT illustration of this as a natural behavior. I LEARNED THIS FROM THEM!

Lila, my lilac crowned amazon is hormonal, and has "claimed" the small bird room as "HERS." Maggie was down on the ground, just waddling around on the floor near the entrance of the little bird room. Well, my little hormonal lilac crowned amazon, who is about 1/4 the size of Maggie, climbs down and comes out charging!

This, of course, does not even phase Maggie. Who meets the charge head on, beak to beak, and simply walks the foolish little amazon backwards into the wall. Once back against the wall, Maggie backed off and let her go... and they both waddled off in different directions. No real aggression. Just messages sent and received.

Territorial issues decided. I know you want this spot, but I go where I bloody well please! No malice. No grudges. Whole thing took all of about 15 seconds. I can still handle both of them on the same arm without aggression.

And you've seen the pics of Woody, and I backed his little butt into a corner every time he got too far out of line. He still kissed me. He was still a big goofy lap bird.

 

[MonicaMc]

That quote is from Michael Sazhin, aka "The Parrot Wizard" - not Bird Tricks. Granted, Bird Tricks has recommended the same thing - reducing a birds weight to create motivation to train.

 

[Birdman666]

That quote is from Michael Sazhin, aka "The Parrot Wizard" - not Bird Tricks. Granted, Bird Tricks has recommended the same thing - reducing a birds weight to create motivation to train.

I don't keep up with the snake oil salesmen of the bird world anymore. And unless the bird is morbidly obese I disagree with who ever wrote it.

The only thing with food and training, is that when using food rewards, you work with the bird BEFORE meals, when the bird is hungry and more motivated to work for it. And if there is a favorite treat, he only gets those at training time. Training is supposed to be play/interaction time anyway, so adding favorite treats to the mix only makes it something he looks forward to that much more...

 

[GW.Joe]

Clipping gives an attitude adjustment, and prevents them from dive bombing and facial attacks

My Amazon lived with me for 20 years, he was on my shoulder every day, he loved me dearly, I spent hours with him every day

When he decided to be "Amazon Grumpy" no amount of positive reinforcement worked (even trying to deal with him for days on end)

BUT clipping would give him an instant change of attitude

I kept him clipped anyway because he used to ride in the car with me and go to the park with me and he was outside so much but completely hated any kind of harness

So I would just plan my clippings around the times that he had his worst behavior

Joe

Poe and Me in the Park on a Beautiful Spring Day, Should have seen the look on the guys face next to me when I Popped Poe Out The Window !!

 

[henpecked]

I too keep my hen nape of 44 yrs clipped. She's fully flighted at this moment, however when hormonal , she is very aggressive to the other zons in the house. This is when i normally clip her. The first time she flies to attack another bird i clip her. She doesn't fuss, i'm sure she's aware of what's going on. I don't clip nearly as much as you Joe, but she's a heavy hen and usually 3-5 primarys is enough. I can't say i see any real change in attitude, but she knows her limits as far as flight is concerned.She still wants to kill any other zon i pay too much attention to. I kept her clipped for the first 30 yrs and took her everywhere and did everything with her. She too won't tolerate a harness and when fully flighted it effects how much she gets out and about. If the OP's bird was mine ,i'd clip when he/she get's that aggressive, but that's what works for us in our situation.

 

[Dopey]

So we managed to get 10 minutes out of the cage. She sat on her cage door and we just spent some time there. At one point she took off and flew into the kitchen and back to the back of the couch. She stepped up onto a perch and stepped down to the cage door. About 30 seconds later she flew to the top of the U2s stand not his cage. The U2 saw where she was and started screaming (I don't have things set up yet so that I can put the U2 in another room right now). The Zon flew back to her cage and went inside.

There is more to the evening but that was the Zon time out of the cage. My goal is 15 minutes. If she were mine and I didn't have two other birds my goal would be for her to be out most of the time that I am home.

 

[GW.Joe]

I don't clip nearly as much as you Joe, but she's a heavy hen and usually 3-5 primarys is enough

Yeah I know it was a lot but I would only clip him till he stopped trying to jump off things, I was afraid of him hurting himself, I would only cut 1 inch every two days till he would stop jumping (he was very strong-willed and wanted what he wanted)

Many times in the winter he would go for months un-clipped, he really LOVED my kids too

 

[GW.Joe]

So we managed to get 10 minutes out of the cage. She sat on her cage door and we just spent some time there. At one point she took off and flew into the kitchen and back to the back of the couch. She stepped up onto a perch and stepped down to the cage door. About 30 seconds later she flew to the top of the U2s stand not his cage. The U2 saw where she was and started screaming (I don't have things set up yet so that I can put the U2 in another room right now). The Zon flew back to her cage and went inside.

There is more to the evening but that was the Zon time out of the cage. My goal is 15 minutes. If she were mine and I didn't have two other birds my goal would be for her to be out most of the time that I am home.

I am really sorry you are having to deal with this (and not really get anything long term out of it) when its your bird at least you have the satisfaction of ending up with a well-trained bird, seems like in this situation all your work is going to be temporary

Maybe I missed it but how long is your son keeping the bird at your house?

Joe

 

[Dopey]

The Zon (named Haley) is with me until early July. Please understand that I feel they made the right decision with me having the bird. The lady that we got it from was leaving the country and we got Haley and my U2 (Dopey/Houdini) at the same time. My son and his girlfriend are living in a bedroom with access to a kitchen until July (really small living conditions). She was finishing college. Her focus was her studies and her internships. They have done wonderful and I'm proud of what they went through and had to accomplish. I knew keeping the bird would be a challenge but I did think they would be able to visit more often than they have. Good news is that she has found a great job and they have a lease on an apartment, that allows parrots, to move in to late June. They want to be semi settled before they bring in Haley - thus the early July time frame. The bird does behave for my son much better than his girlfriend or me which just aggrivates me to no end because the man does nothing for the bird. Doesn't clean the cage nor does he feed it or give it water. Argh!

The reward from all of this is...I'm working with a bird and I'm going to do my best. Thinking about it makes me realize that it isn't temporary. She's my grandfid. Oh, and what is even better is that...right now I have all grandson's. Even my granddog's are male. Yippee - a granddaughterfid.

 

[GW.Joe]

The Zon (named Haley) is with me until early July. Please understand that I feel they made the right decision with me having the bird. The lady that we got it from was leaving the country and we got Haley and my U2 (Dopey/Houdini) at the same time. My son and his girlfriend are living in a bedroom with access to a kitchen until July (really small living conditions). She was finishing college. Her focus was her studies and her internships. They have done wonderful and I'm proud of what they went through and had to accomplish. I knew keeping the bird would be a challenge but I did think they would be able to visit more often than they have. Good news is that she has found a great job and they have a lease on an apartment, that allows parrots, to move in to late June. They want to be semi settled before they bring in Haley - thus the early July time frame. The bird does behave for my son much better than his girlfriend or me which just aggrivates me to no end because the man does nothing for the bird. Doesn't clean the cage nor does he feed it or give it water. Argh!

The reward from all of this is...I'm working with a bird and I'm going to do my best. Thinking about it makes me realize that it isn't temporary. She's my grandfid. Oh, and what is even better is that...right now I have all grandson's. Even my granddog's are male. Yippee - a granddaughterfid.

Well that's good, its very hard for young people starting out, best thing they could have done for the bird, having you love her, No Doubt !!

"grandfid" LOL

At least July is not too far off !!

Joe

 

[Dopey]

So, I re-read and thanks again. They didn't want to get the bird clipped until they were in the new apartment. It's not my bird so I don't feel that I can get her clipped without their permission. I even had asked permission before I started doing any training and we aren't on the same page with that. I'm a strict trainer where the girlfriend is a softy. My son is therefore a softy. You should see them with their budgies and their tiel. It is so sickening sweet.