Yellow Naped Amazon...biting/crunching help

[Dopey]

I am currently housing my sons YNA. I have an Umbrella Cockatoo that is partially the love of my life. They are in separate cages and the cages are about 6 feet apart - so they see each other all day long. They used to be in the same cage together and have been together for over 9 years. The birds were separated because they started fighting...of the YNA was attacking the U2. I feed both birds. My son and his girlfriend come once or twice a week to spend about 45 minutes to an hour with their bird.

My U2 spends time out of his cage everyday and time with me on his stand and on the couch with me. Because the YNA is not my bird I don't spend a lot of time with it and because of her agression towards me we don't let her out of the cage unless my son and his girlfriend are around.

Any time that she is out of the cage she either wants to be on top of the U2s cage (even though the U2 successfully bites her on occasion) or on me and usually it's my neck. She tries to bite me and when she does that my son's girlfriend grabs her to keep her from biting me and then she gets bit...HARD. Would it help if I spent more time with her when my son and his girlfriend can't be there or would that make things worse? We do not have the birds out of the cage at the same time. They go after each other.

Please help - I don't want to get bit and I don't want my son's girlfriend to get bit anymore. We all want this bird to be nice and stop biting.

 

[Birdman666]

I don't have time for detailed instructions right now, but I will get back to you on this.

1. Is this bird clipped or flighted?

2. This bird sounds like it has either (1) overbonded to your son, and (2) is not being handled enough, and (3) may be cage bound and territorial at this point.

We are also in Amazon breeding season which is not exactly the ideal time to be working him, especially a Hot 3 amazon.

My suggestion would be to start over from scratch, with basic taming and training. Work with the bird as if it is not tame. NO SHOULDERS ALLOWED for a bird that bites.

So, this is a get back to basics, and start over from scratch bird, in my opinion.

If he's bonded with your son, you handling him around your son is more likely to get you bit...

IT HONESTLY SOUNDS LIKE THIS BIRD IS NOT VERY TAME AT THE MOMENT.

 

[Dopey]

Birdman - thank you. The shoulder is after she has flown from one room to the next and back to land on my neck. It is while we are trying to get him off my neck that he bites my son's girlfriend.

Sweet bird in the cage. Sweet bird when on her stand. Talks to me every morning and every evening. If I leave the room after getting home to go out and feed the dog she starts screaming. Eventually I'm done feeding the dog - takes about 3 minutes - and I come back into the house. If I don't say hello to her - she starts screaming.

Once she bites she goes back into her cage and immediately is covered - most of the way but she tries to find a way to look around the cover and get our attention. Like "hello baby."

Yep - we are pretty sure he likes my son. So, would the person to get him off of my neck be my son and not my son's girlfriend?

We will go back to basic training.

Thanks again Birdman and since I don't have a decent computer at home response will be slow. :20:

 

[Birdman666]

Yep - we are pretty sure he likes my son. So, would the person to get him off of my neck be my son and not my son's girlfriend?

We will go back to basic training.

Thanks again Birdman and since I don't have a decent computer at home response will be slow. :20:

1. This bird needs to be clipped.

2. Back in the cage and covered is a screaming protocol, not a biting protocol. Biting protocol is bird gets clipped, and he gets wobbled so he can't latch on, and then immediately dropped to the floor, and doesn't get off the floor til he steps up nice.

3. Favorite person - i.e. your son, needs to interact with this bird more. That's the root cause of some of these behavior problems. And once or twice a week is not enough time in my opinion.

4. Step up practice. 15 minutes a day for about two weeks.

5 Touching exercises, but not right now because it's breeding season.

6. The attacky stuff with your too is probably nothing more than amazon territorialism, and breeding season makes it worse. He's probably trying to claim the space, and drive your too out of the nest. This should calm down with time. Standard protocol is Pick him up & put him back. If he doesn't get it after about 3 tries, the cage door closes, and you have lost your "out" privileges. If he pitches a fit, THEN cover. When he calms down uncover and praise. If he remains calm, try opening the door and see if he has "received the message." If not, repeat til he does.

7. No shoulders. Lock the elbow in to your side, and block his path with your hand. if he tries to climb over, you redirect him. If he argues about it, he immediately finds himself on the floor, and he can sit there and think about it a minute.

8. Amazons are stubborn. Here's a newsflash!

9. If your son doesn't like it, remind him that it's HIS bird, and he has abdicated responsibility for it. You can't have birds flying around the house, biting people, especially around the neck. "Son, have you heard of the Jugular vein?! Do you know where that vein is located?! Is it worth the risk?!"

10. Some zons need to be clipped during breeding season, and are just fine the rest of the year. Some need to be clipped and stick handled during breeding season.

 

[MonicaMc]

My suggestion will be different.


If you think you can handle training a flighted bird, I would try going this route first. If you don't train the bird correctly, clipping them is not going to make a difference - unless you plan to keep the bird clipped for life.

First off, I would start off with target training while inside the cage. Once your zon is good at target training inside the cage, then work on target training on his stand. If he's good at that, you can then start target training him around the house.

Done right, and with a good history of reinforcement, if he were to ever take flight on his own, you could tell him to fly to perch or fly to cage instead of to you.



Also, it'll help to try and learn to read your zon's body language... i.e. learn to read when he's about to bite and back off. Try not to put him in a position that will result in a bite. Reward, reward, reward desired behaviors and try to avoid undesired behaviors.



A lot can be accomplished through the use of positive reinforcement training and clicker training.

 

[Kiwibird]

First off, understand amazons form EXTREMELY close bonds with their favored human, and 'tolerate' everyone else at best. While they can be conditioned to be friendly with strangers, they are still very much one person birds by nature. Also, amazons have very different temperaments in general than you have experience with your cockatoo so the whole behavioral patterns of a zon is probably foreign to you when all you've experienced is your toos behavior.

IMO, one of 2 things need to happen here- the preferred human (your son) needs to try very hard to come visit his bird pretty much every day OR he needs to stop visiting at all and re-bond with the bird when he takes it back. Trust me when I say, it may be more 'difficult' for him, but if he cares about his bird he will make the time to come see him ALONE. When the bird returns home with him for good, then he can start introducing the girlfriend into the picture with the bird, but for now, it should just be him. If he can't make that commitment, the less favorable option of stopping visiting would apply, which means YOU can start working with the bird more intensely (2 valid POVs above, whichever rings more true, though zons do tend to respond better to a little more 'firm' of a training regimen than strictly positive reinforcement). Either way, what is occurring now is just the perfect storm to create a vicious bird with even worse behavioral problems coming down the line.

This bird is probably so confused right now it's poor little brain just can't process. Please try to put yourself in the birds shoes- his favored person (your son) had abandoned him in some strange place. Said favored personally returns occasionally with competition for affection (girlfriend) and the re-abandons him all over again (leaves and goes home). Then the bird turns to the new person in his life (you), and sees you have bonded with your U2. Now he sees your bird as competition for affection as well, and is loosing on every front (can't get your son and can't get you and probably just doesn't like the cockatoo, no offense meant to your bird). Now the bird is feeling isolated, repeatedly abandoned and is potentially experiencing some hormonal surges. Is it any wonder he's lashing out? Amazons stay in the same flock (in a domestic home, that would be the same family), and when they partner off (pick their favored human), they stay with the same mate (favored human) for life. If their mate dies (or with people, rehomes them) then they may move on and find another. What does NOT happen is all this shifting around. For the mental well being of this bird, please figure out whether your son can commit to seeing his bird more than twice a week (try double that) or whether he will just leave the picture until the bird comes home with him for good. It will be easier to work with the bird once one of those options has been decided on rather than to work with a confused and angry bird.

 

[Dopey]

Whew a lot to think about and I appreciate all of the advice. I know my son isn't able to come and visit daily although I am going to tell him what has been suggested.

She went to the floor the other day and it didn't seem to phase her.

Tonight she had some sort of attitude (I didn't see it because I was in another part of the house). So the time my son and his girlfriend spent with her was short tonight.

Is there a book I can get for them on target training and Amazon's?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[lucy1]

Hi

You are stuck in a horrible messy quadrangle between you, your YNA, your son and your U2. Whilst the idea of stick training would work "if you think you can handle training a flighted bird" I don't think it sounds like this applies in this case, given the seriousness of the attacks. Stick training is fab, if the bird can focus on a treat instead of the far stronger 'KILL' desire your amazon currently has. Clipping will make a difference without keeping the bird clipped for life as you can train while the bird is clipped, and reinforce while the feathers grow back in...

I have to agree with Birdman and Kiwibird on this. You have a MASSIVE safety issue here, to yourself, your YNA and your U2 (who is currently winning by toe-biting but there's no definite bets against a hormonal 'zon).

Clipping is a highly controversial subject on here, and I await my backlash, but I wholeheartedly recommend a combination of Birdman and Kiwibirds suggestions here, as safety has to take precedence over idealism, before you or either of your birds experience a life-changing injury... xx

 

[BEWolf]

Male Amazons are generally more aggressive than the female of the species, and the bond between bird and human is more intense than with some of the other parrots. You really do need to have your son spend a significantly more amount of time with his bird, take his bird home, or quit seeing the bird period. Otherwise, you are in a very dangerous situation. While living with a flighted, and aggressive male Amazon can be dangerous, I don't think that I would clip his wings. Clipping has a tendency to actually increase aggressiveness. You do need to pay attention to his body language, eapecilly pinning eyes and the flaring of his tail feathers as these two things seem to precede aggressiveness at least in my YNA.

 

[Kiwibird]

If you want to start with target training, it is the same concept for all birds. Bird touches target stick, click, treat and praise. If the bird is especially vicious, some people will affix a small 'cup' (like a bottle cap) to a second stick to offer the treat in so the bird does not bite them accepting it until it becomes more tame. Once the bird has learned the concept of target, you move on to working to step up. For beginners, I like the Michael Sazhin "the parrot wizard"- The Parrot Wizard's Guide to Well-Behaved Parrots There is A LOT of debate on the best training methods/trainer but I've been using his trick training program with my zon with good results. My bird already stepped up and was comfortable with me when I started trick training. I just did it for some additional interaction/mental stimulation rather than as a necessity. I do not necessarily think this is the best approach to take with an older, already step up trained, aggressive bird, but many people only want to do clicker based training. Thats up to you.

When we step up trained, Kiwi got trained the old-school way and it worked. My husband had a much easier time than me because Kiwi took to him instantly, but he has learned over time that I'm his friend, not his enemy. Kiwi was older, never been handled, was aggressive and very much had a vendetta against me (he is not fond of women). There was no target involved, just a treat he really wanted. I started off with a gloved hand for him to step on and a treat held just out of his reach in the other (that way he had to step on my hand to get the treat). Also introduced stick training as well. Once he got proficient with stepping up in the cage to the glove and stick, then we started doing bare-hand step up drills for 15 minutes 2x a day from various areas in the house so he learned to step up from anywhere. I was able to get him out of the cage on the glove/stick until he learned otherwise. Yes, he did bite me, several times and yes, it hurt, A LOT even through the glove and even more into my bare flesh. When he bit, I did not react (or at most my face probably contorted a bit), but I didn't scream, pull away or make a big scene. I stared him dead in the eye and basically had a stare down until he let go and stepped up. He did not get out of stepping up after a bite either. He had to step up whether he bit me or not. That method of training accomplished 2 things- he learned to step up AND he learned not to bite (as biting got him no reaction). It also opened the door for encouraging better forms of communicating his needs. My husband allows Kiwi on his shoulder, but he is not allowed on mine (I do not shoulder birds, he can go on my arm to my bent elbow and no farther). If he tore into my husband while on his shoulder (which he never has, my hubby is the 'chosen one' for this bird), he would go to the floor much in the way Birdman describes. As ALL amazons get so wound up and/or experience severe hormonal aggression, he does occasionally have to ride the stick. Stick training is essential and will keep the peace when the bird is so wound up it lashes out. Aggression due to overstimulation is an unfortunate and unique trait to amazons and something you need to research so you have a good understanding of this trait and how to identify and deal with it.

I do agree if a flighted bird is launching ariel attacks, clipping is a valid option for that situation. It is unsafe for EVERYONE, including the bird who may be injured if someone has an instinctual, split second reaction to being attacked from above. Training is highly personal, and you should research several methods before deciding. I still maintain, amazons ARE different than other species, and *will* dominate if you take flowery approach with them. That doesn't mean you ever hit, yell at or otherwise punish them, but they may need a more firm voice or confident body language to listen to you whether you target train or any other training method.

 

[SandyBee]

You have received great advice above. Training is a definite priority here, also it sounds like your amazon isn't getting a lot of out of cage time. A hormonal energetic amazon is going to be a handful.
Now if you choose to keep him flighted landing on your shoulder is not an option. Keep a towel on your shoulder and hold it up when he flies at you. He will fly elsewhere. Don't take your eyes off him, they are smart enough to sneak attack.
Also if he does land on your shoulder a good way to get him off is quickly bend forward. The motion is usually enough to make them fly off. None of this replaces training or boundaries but may be of use as you transition to a better way.

 

[MonicaMc]

Considering that Michael Sazhin aka "The Parrot Wizard" recommends starving birds (i.e. reducing their weight up to 20% of their normal weight), I can't recommend him as a trainer. Besides, his experience training birds is limited to his own birds. He does not have the experience and knowledge to back up everything that he does.


Dopey, if you want good trainers, then I would recommend the following.

Barbara Heidenreich
Lara Joseph
Susan Friedman
Melinda Johnson (and Karen Pryor)
Steve Martin
Jim McKendry
Chris Shank
Scott Echols
Linda Rasmussen
Sid Price


Some have books and DVD's you can purchase (Barbara Heidenreich has some good ones! Although the DVD's are far too short! That's my only complaint!), some have classes you can take, many have blogs and have written articles on the internet that you can read.

 

[Dopey]

Hi Everybody,

A lot to think through. I would have no problem getting his wings clipped. I think they used to be but not sure. We have only had the birds since late March.

You are right. I know the bird doesn't get enough out of the cage time. But we thought it was better that my son and his girlfriend give him that out of the cage time instead of me. If that is wrong then I can start correcting that today.

I'm typing this in a hurry because I'm at work and supposed to be working.

I can do the towel thing on my shoulder and I can keep an eye on him/her. We don't know for sure what it is. Both the U2 and the Zon tested male and then one time when they were in the cage one of them laid an egg. For some reason the previouse owner determined that the Zon was the female and the U2 was a male. My vet says my U2 is a girl based on just looking at her eyes which almost seem black to me. (Another story.)

Anyway - thanks so much for your suggestions and I will take it one day at a time. My son and his girlfriend won't be back for several days so I have time to think some things through. They are in the middle of getting ready to move and they can't take her to their current living space. In July this bird goes to its new home (their place) and we are all looking forward to it.

 

[BEWolf]

The bird most definitely needs the out of cage time if you can do it safely. As a side note to this, flying is the best form of exercise for this bird and will help to reduce the aggression.

 

[Kiwibird]

Absolutely get him his out of cage time! That would probably be a big contributing factor to his crabbiness. I would also suggest when he is out, if he is not step up or stick trained yet, to keep a large, clean but can 'get some holes' towel handy so you can towel him if he will not go home voluntarily (try a treat in his dish first, but you may have to get him with a towel). How is his toy situation too? Most amazons appreciate having 3-4 variedlarge parrot toys in their cage at any one time. Try one foot toy, one forging toy and one shredding/chewing toy to keep him occupied in the cage(if he doesn't already have them)

Monica suggests some very good trainers for forming a LONG TERM relationship with the bird if you determine all positive reinforcement is the right method to go , but that would be the job of your son and girlfriend to look into that list and do the kind of in depth research to determine a strict training program they want to follow once the bird goes home. Especially the girlfriend, since the bird doesn't like her and she will need to be the one doing the most work with him. They have a month, so I might suggest you actually forward that list over to them ASAP so they can start reading, researching and prepping.

The reason I suggest the parrot wizard is he offers FAST tips to get a bird to step up and reducing biting, which would be more appropriate given your situation and relationship with this bird. Secondly, IMOmost people offer their birds way more food than necessary, and no harm is going to come of cutting 20% of the excessive amounts of food being offered each day. Rationing is extremely unpopular because offering an appropriate amount of food looks like too little when it is in fact a healthy portion and not anything you need to concern yourself with for the short time you have this bird. I definitely don't want to get started on a food rationing debate:52:. Since you won't have this parrot much longer and it's not really your responsibility to look into how much he should be eating, just try training sessions BEFORE you give him his nighttime meals so he's more hungry and more likely to work for food. You can still feed him dinner afterwards, but the whole point of the cutting food intake is that food is a strong motivator for the bird to learn and an overfed bird is not going to be very motivated by food-based rewards. And be sure he gets to come out for a few hours each day along with having some fun toys. An occupied bird is a well-beahved bird

 

[Dopey]

I can let her out of her cage. Although I would have to start over with the "trust me in the cage" before I let you out of the cage. It will be like starting over with her for me but I can take the time to do it. I feel like since I was doing it before I can do it again. When she is out she is the only one out. I don't let my U2 out at the same time. I know not to take my eyes off of this zon. I will be sure to copy all of the instructions here and paste them into a document so that I can print them out. Thanks again!

 

[Dopey]

Hi All - this bird does step up and steps down to get back into her cage. Arm and perch (okay - a long stick because it is a long way across my U2's cage). She takes treats from me - the yogurt covered mango treats - very nicely. I haven't tried anything smaller. Those work so I'm sticking with them. She only eats the yogurt anyway.

She has a fairly new toy (she is just now really playing with it) that she is just now learning to tear apart. She has several perches and a swing. There are a couple of other toys in there but I can't remember exactly what I have mentioned to my son several times that they need to be replaced. I tried an even stronger hint and replaced some of the rope on the swing but the old toy is still there. I honestly do try to make this my son's responsiblity. I do feed her(fresh food twice a day) and give her fresh water.

I know her favorite nut is a peanut and I have just recently gotten her off of seed diet onto a pellet diet. My son's girlfriend works with her with foot toys when she has her out of the cage. If I'm in the room with them though she prefers to be on me. She has that look in her eye and then she either walks over to me or flies to me.

Should I just bite the bullet and treat her as if she is mine and let my son deal with her when he takes her in July? (I know it was mentioned that he should stay away but I don't think that is going to happen and our relationship isn't strong enough for me to mention it. We are just restoring our relationship and he is my stepson/son.) I feel sorry for the bird.

Yep - a little over a month and she is gone. And I have told them both that she can't return.

 

[JerseyWendy]

The bird most definitely needs the out of cage time if you can do it safely. As a side note to this, flying is the best form of exercise for this bird and will help to reduce the aggression.

Ever been around an hormonal Amazon that Kamikaze's your butt? Of course flying is a great form of exercise, but not if the bird is looking at you as the "bullseye". Flying does NOT reduce aggression if the bird truly has it out for you. (For that matter, clipping the wings doesn't either, it will only result in the bird chasing you via foot.) I've been in those shoes, and it was truly scary. :54: However, I preferred the bird on the ground vs mid air.

 

[Dopey]

My suggestion will be different.


If you think you can handle training a flighted bird, I would try going this route first. If you don't train the bird correctly, clipping them is not going to make a difference - unless you plan to keep the bird clipped for life.

First off, I would start off with target training while inside the cage. Once your zon is good at target training inside the cage, then work on target training on his stand. If he's good at that, you can then start target training him around the house.

Done right, and with a good history of reinforcement, if he were to ever take flight on his own, you could tell him to fly to perch or fly to cage instead of to you.



Also, it'll help to try and learn to read your zon's body language... i.e. learn to read when he's about to bite and back off. Try not to put him in a position that will result in a bite. Reward, reward, reward desired behaviors and try to avoid undesired behaviors.



A lot can be accomplished through the use of positive reinforcement training and clicker training.

I can try the target training. At one point she understood the "cage" word and would go back to the top of her cage. If I wanted her in her cage I would send her back to the top of her cage "cage" and then tell her to step down and she would go back into her cage. Then either the bird or the girlfriend decided that she liked the stand I have for my U2 and the "cage" and the "step down" hasn't been used sense. I didn't have to use a perch she went for me.

I am trying to get us all on the same page but it isn't working so I gave up.

 

[Dopey]

This bird is probably so confused right now it's poor little brain just can't process. Please try to put yourself in the birds shoes- his favored person (your son) had abandoned him in some strange place. Said favored personally returns occasionally with competition for affection (girlfriend) and the re-abandons him all over again (leaves and goes home). Then the bird turns to the new person in his life (you), and sees you have bonded with your U2. Now he sees your bird as competition for affection as well, and is loosing on every front (can't get your son and can't get you and probably just doesn't like the cockatoo, no offense meant to your bird). Now the bird is feeling isolated, repeatedly abandoned and is potentially experiencing some hormonal surges. Is it any wonder he's lashing out? Amazons stay in the same flock (in a domestic home, that would be the same family), and when they partner off (pick their favored human), they stay with the same mate (favored human) for life. If their mate dies (or with people, rehomes them) then they may move on and find another. What does NOT happen is all this shifting around. For the mental well being of this bird, please figure out whether your son can commit to seeing his bird more than twice a week (try double that) or whether he will just leave the picture until the bird comes home with him for good. It will be easier to work with the bird once one of those options has been decided on rather than to work with a confused and angry bird.

Kiwibird - I know the bird is confused...sometimes I feel like I'm confused. But you painted a really good picture for me.