Which of the Hot 3?

[Idenmamiri]

Hey all,

I am looking into purchasing a baby zon in the next month or so but I have been bouncing between mainly a double yellow headed or a blue fronted with a little bit of thought on yellow napes.

Before you all ask, I am very well versed in parrot care, including larger parrots. I raised a Goffin's Cockatoo from a very young age, and have had smaller parrots as well such as a Sunday Conure and a canary winged parakeet. I have spent countless hours researching amazons and their intricacies and will continue to do so for my duration as an amazon owner.

I was wondering if you guys can come up with some differences be it in personality, temperament, talking ability, noise level, etc between the three because almost every breeder I ask has their own little anecdote on when they had the sweetest blue front and the grumpiest yellow nape and vice versa when I ask another breeder.

At this point I think I am going to decide based off the sex and the individual bird's personality, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to see what you all have to say!

Side note, I have heard from many that amazons don't show any difference in personality or levels of hormonal activity between male and female, but also that females are less aggressive during hormonal periods. I think I am going to play it safe and select a female baby - what are your thoughts?

 

[SailBoat]

So what reading have you done here on Parrot Forums?

Do you know what it means to be 'owned' by an Amazon and whether it is good thing or a bad thing?

You do understand that with all your experience and knowledge of Parrot ownership, any of the Flaming Hot Three can easily live into their 60's, and 70's, possible longer. That clearly defines that they will easily live as long as you and more likely beyond you. A clear statement of a Life Time Commitment that will likely require a structured Will to assure continued excellent care after you pass on.

This group of Amazons are also the most common left at Rescue Centers, etc... Because individuals who believe that they are fully prepared, well read, etc... Find that sweet Baby can and does become Hormonal crazed as they transition into Adulthood! The term Hot Three has established documentation of effects of this transition on moderate relationships with their Humans.

In addition, this group of Amazons and several others are true believers in the Statement: Lead, Follow or Get the hell out of the way. If the owner is unaware or unable to be the leader, the Amazon will. Unaware or unable to read and understand Amazon Body Language, they will never be able to understand what their Amazon is communicating and will never be able to move beyond basic interactions.

Individuals that first choose this group of Amazon are fixated by their size, coloration and common belief of the speaking abilities.

I've lived with all three and have enjoyed a deep relationship with each. Each clearly have their preferences and strengths. None are toys and if not handled by knowledgeable individuals can inflict serious injuries if handled by Fools.

That does not mean that they cannot and more likely will develop deep, long lasting relationships with their Human family. Whether a male or female, in my world, it just does not matter.

As I stated, all three have graced our home and should I ever find myself without, any of them would be highly welcomed! Other than coloration, the differences, in my mind, are to minor to even come into the equation.

Personally, I would look for an Adult and I would allow myself to be selected /chosen by the Amazon - their choice. My only requirement is that the Parrot would be an Amazon.

But heck, I'm just an old Amazon Snob - what would I know?

 

[Kiwibird]

So you are seeking out a hot 3 amazon? Any particular reason for the choice? They are (IMO) great birds, but as sailboat has mentioned, are not for the faint of heart and demand a certain personality type. Do you feel up to the challenge? I also side with Sailboat that with all the mature amazons in need of loving homes, why not let an adult choose you? With 65+ year lifespans, it's not as if it much matters if the bird is 10 or 20 years old, and as a bonus, you wouldn't need to deal with puberty with an older bird and their personality would be (more) apparent (than a baby) already

I grew up with a (wild caught) female DYH and am owned now by a rescue male BFA I adopted at the height of his puberty/aggressive streak. The DYH definitely had a mother-hen thing about her, but also had a mother grizzly thing as well. She is typically fairly free range during the day, but must be locked up when guests or repairmen are over. She can be very affectionate with select humans but if she doesn't like you, she will not hesitate to launch a full arial assault and is quite skilled at dive bombing, biting the backs of necks and flying away in the blink of an eye. And she is a BIG girl, quite capable of removing a sizable chunk of flesh should she be provoked or simply decides she doesn't like you and sees an opportunity. Females, while often times having a gentler nature towards preferred humans are no less aggressive than the males if they feel the circumstances warrant it.

Now my male BFA has a bit of a bully attitude but is a total mamas boy when confronted and doesn't even bother misbehaving in front of my husband . If he perceives weakness in a human who in his turf, he takes great joy in terrorizing anyone foolish enough to behave timidly in his presence. However, in the face of trouble, he'll run to the nearest trusted human for help/assurance. So long as he understands (and is occasionally reminded of) his place in the "flock" hierarchy, he is actually a quite well behaved and sweet boy who loves giving kisses and hanging out, playing, preening you etc... This is fairly typical of males (of more than the avian kind). Unlike my moms DYH, Kiwi immensely enjoys toys, foraging and puzzles. Not a big talker, but he's frighteningly intelligent and manipulative. I believe this is simply a personal trait rather than a species or gender trait though. Again, if you want to know a bird as they'll be, look into rescues and adoption!

 

[wrench13]

I cant help but wonder why folks almost always go for one of the hot 3, when there are other amazon species that are a little bit ( or a lot) easier going, talk just as well almost and in general have mellower dispositions. Panamas, Red lored, yellow fronts, white fronts and yes yellow shoulder are 4 that pop into my head. dont get me wrong the hot 3 are very engaging, entertaining, form strong bonds and yes known to talk well. I love DYHA but almost every one I've met took a chunk of me with them. Hope you love your new addition as much as we love our Salty, a Yellow SHoulder Amazon, who has stolen every heart in our family, even my daughter who is NOTa bird person. Good Luck

 

[Kiwibird]

I cant help but wonder why folks almost always go for one of the hot 3, when there are other amazon species that are a little bit ( or a lot) easier going, talk just as well almost and in general have mellower dispositions.

I guess the same reason some people jump out of planes or drive cars at 200+ MPH? Live dangerously, adopt a hot 3 zon:16:

 

[wrench13]

LOL Kiwi, that must be it.

 

[Ladyhawk]

I've heard wrench's Salty (a yellow-shouldered Amazon) sing opera and laugh as well as any Amazon. I imagine he has a pretty good working vocabulary, but talking ability is not the be-all and end-all of bird companionship. If I had to choose between a good talker and a bird I could handle, I'd choose the bird I could handle. Of course, whether or not a person has a bird he / she can handle depends largely on the person. Amazons can be challenging, but if the challenges are met, the rewards are great.

As for the big three: I was happily owned by a male DYH for over thirty years and am currently being owned by a five-month-old (most likely female) blue-fronted Amazon, both members of the hot three. Why? The big three appeal to me because I was under the impression they tend to be more animated and silly than the other species. I'm beginning to question that impression. Salty, for example, is animated and hilarious. Even if the big three really are more animated and hilarious than the others, there exists a fine line between amusing and Amazon overload. The bird will be feeling just fine, flashing his eyes and fanning his tail. Then seemingly out of nowhere (but not really because he's giving you cues), he gets so excited he bites. This probably happens much less frequently with non-members of the hot three.

In my youth, I worked in two different pet stores. I think my view of non-hot-three Amazon species was skewed in many ways. The hot three Amazons I worked with were tame babies. If we had other Amazons in the store (usually orange-wings, red-loreds, green cheeks and lilac crowns), they weren't tame. It was hardly a fair comparison. The babies were tame, talkative and silly. Young, tame birds are going to be more engaging than frightened older birds. Duh. I feel a bit foolish now.

Salty has shown me how my limited experiences were unreliable. I'm quite enamored with the little guy. He's cute, small(er), talkative and doesn't go into Amazon overload as easily as the hot three. If I had to choose again, I would consider some of the less-well-known Amazons. Still, I'm happy with Kizzy, who is up past her bedtime. She knows if she's cute and affectionate, I may give her a few more minutes, so she's preening my hair. I've only let her stay up this late one other time, so it appears to be working. (As of this edit, she is safely tucked into her cage.)

In a few short years, I'll be dealing with the onset of sexual maturity. That was a tough time for Gabby and me, but he was always pretty laid-back for a DYH. Kizzy is less laid-back, so I might have a more difficult time with her. Or maybe not. Adopting a parrot never goes exactly how you envision it.

I'm meeting challenges as they come, some more successfully than others. More than anything, I want to do what's best for her, so when I come here, I ask for help with the challenges. That's all I have time for, but it is a skewed view of Kizzy. Of course there are challenges; she's an Amazon parrot. BUT...I think she is the smartest, silliest and most talented baby Amazon parrot in the whole wide world. She makes me laugh out loud every single day. If she isn't doing something funny, she's doing something fascinating or clever. I even enjoy watching her take a nap. Yes, we train every day, but we also play. We're forging a deep bond and having a really good time all at the same time.

Before Kizzy came into my life, I briefly considered a CAG. I like all parrot species, but Amazons are my favorite.

Good luck in your search.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Amy was 4.5 months old when she picked me to go home with,that was nearly 30 years ago. A few years back I decided to have her DNA'd ( I had my suspicions)..Amy is actually AMOS :52:..but has been called Amy and referred to as a "she" for so long...

In her(his) youth she was a TERROR at times,but I was also ill-versed in AMAZON..she has mellowed gracefully..she is beautiful,intelligent,talks well..is NOT a screamer..oh sure she has her loud moments,but its usually all in talk. HELLO!!!! HOW ARE YOU??? FOOD!!!FOOD!!!
I laugh daily because of her. She is well socialized and will go to just about anyone. But BEWARE!! Read her body language! A poofed up face,fanned tail and pinned eyes mean WATCH OUT!

She loves rides in the car and going places with me and is always welcomed anywhere we go. AND she has her lovey moments..preening my beard,rubbing her beak on my cheek,and mumbling soft 'zon sounds in my ear. I'd be lost without her :07:



Jim

 

[Birdman666]

Sweetest, most bonded bird I ever owned was a 38 year old BFA, and trust me, I've had some super sweet bonded birds...

Hot 3's just have longer breeding seasons, which means more tempermental/hormonal behaviors to deal with. That is REALLY all it means.

Any ZON needs to be handled a bunch in order to stay tame. Any pair bond bird of any kind that's allowed to overbond will tend to bite everyone else.

Any zon who gets cage bound/territorial will get attack-ey in and around the cage.

It isn't rocket science. Get a hand fed bird. Handle it. Bite pressure train. Pay attention to it. Socialize it. Don't lock it up too much.

 

[Idenmamiri]

Thank you all for your replies.I have done ample reading on amazons and will continue do so for the entirety of my amazon’s life.

While all of your anecdotes were definitely helpful, I was hoping for some more generalized differences. Which of the 3 are most likely to talk, what about sing? Which of the 3 tend to be the least hormonal?

I understand that they are all going to talk, and they are all going to be hormonal, but most of the people I ask say they are the same except for coloration, but as a scientist, I don’t believe that. I know that there have to be some differences between 3 different birds.,

Thank you all in advance and for your prior responses.

 

[SailBoat]

Thank you all for your replies.I have done ample reading on amazons and will continue do so for the entirety of my amazon’s life.

While all of your anecdotes were definitely helpful, I was hoping for some more generalized differences. Which of the 3 are most likely to talk, what about sing? Which of the 3 tend to be the least hormonal?

I understand that they are all going to talk, and they are all going to be hormonal, but most of the people I ask say they are the same except for coloration, but as a scientist, I don’t believe that. I know that there have to be some differences between 3 different birds.,

Thank you all in advance and for your prior responses.

Well, thank-you, for reading them!

One of the big underlying points in what was presented is the Point That This Group Of Amazons Do Not Define Generalized Differences! They All Can And Do Hit All Those Points 'or' Not!

FYI: "but as a scientist, I don’t believe that?' Well as a mechanical engineer that has nearing fifty years with this group of Amazons - I Do! Not only do I believe it, I have lived it! So, what you consider "anecdotes" I consider real life, long studied Reality! Read all you want, but 'applied knowledge' and long life in your face studies has clearly brought me to see clearly what was provided above.

My life with Amazons have been spent taking in those classified as 'Yesterdays Trash' that others have miss-treated, left for dead at a Certified Avian Vets Clinic or a Rescue Group. All the Hot Three that I have come in contact with have no 'Want' to ever trust another Human ever again! Each have great capacities to Speak in context, to Sing, and when either forced into a hormonal state send you to the ER for major work!

With this group and near all Parrots, its more the 'effort' and 'compassion' of the Owner that is the key! There is much to learn here! And, if you truly 'open your mind,' great opportunities not to Repeat History!

As a means of finding a common ground of understanding, what area of science are you educated and what area are you now working?

 

[SirEdwin89]

Ah science! Unfortunately, bird behavior is not so quantifiable. At best, you have generalized behavior more common to a species. But as far as I'm concerned, that generally just shows you potentials. Bird personalities very enormously, not just by species, but by each individual.

You have to be willing to bond with that individual, not with what you hope that individual will become.

 

[wrench13]

No offense, but it's sounds like you are entering this 'experiment' with preconceived notions, which is never a good idea. You're getting advice from some of the most experienced Amazon people on this Board, ( not me) and demanding an answer when they are telling you is no defined difference. Scientists and engineers (me) sometimes have to approach life with blinders on to get anythng done. Please in this case listen to what these folks are trying to convey. Good luck and love the bird you get, not the one you want,.

 

[Kiwibird]

The reason these 3 amazons are lumped in a group together and singled out from a plethora of other amazon species is because they share such similar personality traits. To my knowledge, there is actually a good body of evidence they are genetically much closer related to each other than they are other amazons and even interbreed in nature as they have overlapping ranges. All 3 are well known for their ability to talk, sing, general intelligence and being prone to aggressiveness. Of course, there is no guarantee any given individual will talk or sing or like tricks etc... My BFA says a few words sporadically, but he's not really a talker and is certainly not a singer. The 2 amazons I grew up wth never uttered a human word, but the female DYH makes beautiful, melodic vocalizations. Your biggest "generalized" difference is size, with YNAs typically being the largest, followed by DYH's and BFA's the smallest.

 

[chris-md]

In parrots, species traits are commonly shared within a genus

Personality wise, yes individuals vary, but your going to find those aratinga conures (sun conures, jenday conures, red throated conures, among others) are all going to have very similar body language, vocal temperaments, etc. almost to the point that to choose one from afar really only comes down to the color you like best. Pyrrurha conures (pearly, green cheek, painted, etc) are much the same.

So believe it. Intrageneric/Interspecific behavioral and personality commonalities are not uncommon in the avian world.

 

[Idenmamiri]

Thank you all again for your thoughtful responses. I believe I spoke wrongly and conveyed the wrong message. I have a goffin’s cockatoo that turned out to be a hybrid with a bare eyed.

She was sold to me as a pure goffins but began to exhibit some aggressive behavior that my veteriarian began to attribute to the bare eyed side of her. Several have explained to me that goffins tend to not be as aggressive as bare eyes and that this aggression is probably stemming for the fact that she is half bare eyed!

I am now looking to add a bird to my flock and really want to make sure that I pick the right species as that is really the only decision I get to make - how the bird grows up, changes personalities, etc are not in my hands aside from giving her all the love I can while continuing to train her.

Please forgive the rudeness - I misspoke, but I hope you can forgive me as all I was trying to do is find the species that is my best match. I am ready to dedicate the rest of my life to yet another bird and am trying my best not the make the same mistakes I made when picking my first.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my goffins to pieces, but her aggression may have not been existant if I had picked a true goffins rather than a hybrid (which I had no idea was a hybrid at the time of purchase as the breeder failed to disclose this information).

I think I am going to go for a double yellow headed, but will allow the personality of the individual bird do most of the decision making as I am okay with any of the three sizes.

My sincerest apologies - Thank you all again

 

[wrench13]

And I too owe an apology. As my wife frequently tells me, I can get too fervrent when discussing things I feel strongly about. I would not want to discourage a new member from participating in one the best sources of parrot information on the Net. Good luck with your new DYH when you find him/her - they are one of my favorite Amazons.

 

[Ladyhawk]

Well, thank-you, for reading them!

One of the big underlying points in what was presented is the Point That This Group Of Amazons Do Not Define Generalized Differences! They All Can And Do Hit All Those Points 'or' Not!

FYI: "but as a scientist, I don’t believe that?' Well as a mechanical engineer that has nearing fifty years with this group of Amazons - I Do! Not only do I believe it, I have lived it! So, what you consider "anecdotes" I consider real life, long studied Reality! Read all you want, but 'applied knowledge' and long life in your face studies has clearly brought me to see clearly what was provided above.

My life with Amazons have been spent taking in those classified as 'Yesterdays Trash' that others have miss-treated, left for dead at a Certified Avian Vets Clinic or a Rescue Group. All the Hot Three that I have come in contact with have no 'Want' to ever trust another Human ever again! Each have great capacities to Speak in context, to Sing, and when either forced into a hormonal state send you to the ER for major work!

With this group and near all Parrots, its more the 'effort' and 'compassion' of the Owner that is the key! There is much to learn here! And, if you truly 'open your mind,' great opportunities not to Repeat History!

As a means of finding a common ground of understanding, what area of science are you educated and what area are you now working?

I tend to rely on logic and science, but quite honestly, there's no way to quantify the similarities and differences of the hot three. Why? Quite simply, SailBoat is right. Each bird is an individual.

There are over seven billion people on the planet. At some point in our distant past Homo sapiens nearly died out. As a result, there is very little genetic diversity in our species and yet there are tons of differences between individuals due to both nature and nurture. If you can't quantify the behavior of a single species, how can you quantify the nature of three different species (and multiple subspecies) in the same genus? I don't believe you can.

You'll get opinions of breeders who know what chicks from their parent birds are like, but these are only opinions based on how one person views and interacts with Amazons. What about the next breeder, the next breeder, a rehabilitator, the next rehabilitator?

I've heard that blue fronts (especially the aestiva subspecies which is very rare in the United States) are less aggressive than the xanthopteryx subspecies, but I have no idea whether or not that is true. There's a guy on YouTube who thinks napes and DYH's are too aggressive and prefers blue fronts and yellow crowns, but again, it's an opinion.

So many differing opinions among "experts" would seem to indicate that it's hard to make generalizations about living beings from genus Amazona.

 

[Kiwibird]

My dad has a goffin (a "pure" goffin) he's had for around 40 years. He was a hand fed baby who's never been mistreated a day in his life. His cockatoo 'turned' at puberty and never went back to being a gentle natured bird. My parents other birds don't have any behavioral issues. That cockatoo though is a 300-something gram terror and not slowing down a bit with age! Bites, screams, destructive and is an avian evil genius. You are not alone with a "troublesome" G2. Any bird has the potential to be a difficult individual, even if the species has a generally good reputation and you are a caring/responsible owner. One the bright side, if you have a G2 who's on the aggressive side, you shouldn't have too much issues with an amazon. From a lifetime of experience, cockatoo bites are worse than amazon bites and cockatoos tend not to give fair warning before they bite. Amazons give plenty of warning before biting, especially hormonal amazons. Just a heads up, if you don't already have one, you may want to consider an air purifier if your new bird and cockatoo will be in the same area. Amazons can develop respiratory issues with cockatoo dust.

I think if you're prepared for what you're getting into, DYH's are great amazons!

 

[Ladyhawk]

As for apologies: Sometimes it's difficult to convey and interpret meaning from text. I have a feeling everyone has been guilty of that at some point on the Internet.

I had a male DYH. I loved him very much. Despite being extremely well socialized as a baby, there came a point when I could no longer trust him with anyone but my family and then another point when he became a one-person bird.

Could I have changed this? I don't know. I was using the information available to me at the time. Gabby was as well-trained as possible, but maybe there was something I didn't do that I could have done. Or maybe Gabby simply didn't want to interact with others anymore. I don't know.

As the OP knows, you have to deal with the bird you have.

One good argument for getting an adult bird who is a rescue: You'll know what you're getting into from the beginning...for the most part, anyway. Lifetime commitments don't turn out exactly the way you imagine them. That doesn't mean they aren't rewarding. It's just you have to be willing to accept your parrot, spouse, children, etc., for who they are.