Trust issue or am I doing something incorrect

[Cozmo]

I have had my Sun Conure (Cozmo) for a month now and I wanted to get some advice. I got Cozmo from a breeder and besides being hand feed I don't think he was handled at all. I started a thread a few weeks ago about my concerns and dissapointments and you were all very helpful so I'm looking for some more advice from the experts.

For the last few weeks I've been working on target training with positive reinforcement. I tried to take him to an area away from his cage and playpen to do the target training but he was so afraid that he kept biting me so I started doing it on his playpen and in and on his cage and he has been doing great. He will go anywhere to touch the stick and receive his praise and treat and will even come and touch (beak) my hand but for the life of me I can't get him to step up onto my finger or hand or even a wood pearch if he's on his playpen or cage (even though I know he wants to go to one of them). He eventually falls to the ground and then he'll step up onto my hand and will do step up about 4 or 5 times and then he flutters off my hand and runs to the bottom of his cage or playpen. If I try to take him to a different room to see if he'll do the step up withouth his cage around it he still just flutters off my hand and runs away from me. I've tried laying on the floor and talking to him to try to calm him down but he just keeps running from me on the floor.

I just wanted to know if there is something more I should be doing, am I doing something incorrectly or is it just a trust thing and it's going to take some more time? Any advice would be greatly apprecaited.

 

[weco]

Have you ever shown fear/nervousness about the bird stepping up or biting you? Have you always provided a solid/firm, unmoving finger or hand or perch for the bird to step onto? If there's a no or maybe to any of those, that could be your problem, but it could also be that never being handled, he may just need more time.....the fact that he will beak/touch your hand indicates that he's not really afraid of you as a human, just may not be fully confident in what you're doing.....

One of the better step-up training videos is on youtube: [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpLv4l41wWM]Teaching Parrots to Step Up and Down - YouTube[/ame]

 

[legal_eagle]

It sounds like you're doing the right thing ... that he's willing to step up from the floor indicates that you should take him away from his cage and playpen to get him to rely on you more. His fluttering and seeming fear will force him to rely on you, which will be the catalyst for trust. Remember that it's not just about training, but building trust. IMHO the training is a tool, but not the goal in itself. Do you ever pick him up and just walk around with him on your finger or shoulder? I would do that a lot so he sees that it is fun and he can trust you. If he initially shows fear and flutters away just patiently pick him up and be lovingly persistent. I would be very surprised if he did not come to realize staying with you is a better strategy than panicking and trying to escape.

 

[Cozmo]

Have you ever shown fear/nervousness about the bird stepping up or biting you? Have you always provided a solid/firm, unmoving finger or hand or perch for the bird to step onto? If there's a no or maybe to any of those, that could be your problem, but it could also be that never being handled, he may just need more time.....the fact that he will beak/touch your hand indicates that he's not really afraid of you as a human, just may not be fully confident in what you're doing.....

One of the better step-up training videos is on youtube: Teaching Parrots to Step Up and Down - YouTube

It's not just my hand it's even a perch he won't step up on but I watched the video and tried a rope perch and played the touch game with a treat and he stepped up on the rope so thanks I'll try that for awhile and see if it works

 

[Cozmo]

It sounds like you're doing the right thing ... that he's willing to step up from the floor indicates that you should take him away from his cage and playpen to get him to rely on you more. His fluttering and seeming fear will force him to rely on you, which will be the catalyst for trust. Remember that it's not just about training, but building trust. IMHO the training is a tool, but not the goal in itself. Do you ever pick him up and just walk around with him on your finger or shoulder? I would do that a lot so he sees that it is fun and he can trust you. If he initially shows fear and flutters away just patiently pick him up and be lovingly persistent. I would be very surprised if he did not come to realize staying with you is a better strategy than panicking and trying to escape.

I'm always afraid to take him away from the room he's in becuase he always flutters away and then gets so upset and starts panting. I guess I was afraid I was taking 3 steps backwards by upsetting him so I've really just left him to his cage and playpen playing the target game and haven't tried to hold him for fear of upsetting him and making him afraid. He will never stay on my finger and I didn't think I was supposed to allow him on my shoulder. I guess I should let him get upset and afraid?

 

[legal_eagle]

It sounds like you're doing the right thing ... that he's willing to step up from the floor indicates that you should take him away from his cage and playpen to get him to rely on you more. His fluttering and seeming fear will force him to rely on you, which will be the catalyst for trust. Remember that it's not just about training, but building trust. IMHO the training is a tool, but not the goal in itself. Do you ever pick him up and just walk around with him on your finger or shoulder? I would do that a lot so he sees that it is fun and he can trust you. If he initially shows fear and flutters away just patiently pick him up and be lovingly persistent. I would be very surprised if he did not come to realize staying with you is a better strategy than panicking and trying to escape.

I'm always afraid to take him away from the room he's in becuase he always flutters away and then gets so upset and starts panting. I guess I was afraid I was taking 3 steps backwards by upsetting him so I've really just left him to his cage and playpen playing the target game and haven't tried to hold him for fear of upsetting him and making him afraid. He will never stay on my finger and I didn't think I was supposed to allow him on my shoulder. I guess I should let him get upset and afraid?

I think some upset/fear is inevitable and, barring a complete freak-out, probably helpful in learning trust ... you will become the source of comfort for him.

 

[Cozmo]

Well I just spent the last 15 minutes walking around the house with Cozmo on my shoulder signing and talking and he didn't fly off and wasn't panting when I got done. I guess I need to keep taking him out of his comfort zone so that he learns that I'm ok and will protect him. Thanks so much for the advice I'll keep trying. I may end up with a bird who loves me yet!

 

[MonicaMc]

When you try to get him to step up, do you ask him to physically step up? (like the grey in the video) Or are you asking him to move from one spot to another? (as if your hand is an extension of whatever he's already on?)

When I say extension, I mean putting your hand down on the perch or the cage, then having him move towards your hand, touching your hand, then stepping up onto it while your hand never moves?

 

[Cozmo]

When you try to get him to step up, do you ask him to physically step up? (like the grey in the video) Or are you asking him to move from one spot to another? (as if your hand is an extension of whatever he's already on?)

When I say extension, I mean putting your hand down on the perch or the cage, then having him move towards your hand, touching your hand, then stepping up onto it while your hand never moves?

I put my finger, hand or perch by his feet and then move it up in front of his belly and ask him to step up. If he still won't step up then I touch his belly but he then usually leans back as far as he can on his perch so that he doesn't have to step up and then he moves away from me on the perch. Is this incorrect?

 

[MonicaMc]

Ya, it is... it is most often the one recommended, but not the one best used.

Read this blog
Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk: Help! My Parrot Wont Step Up!


You need to find Cozmo's favorite rewards and teach him that certain behaviors get him rewarded. If he doesn't know how to target, then you may have to lure him onto your hand, and once he understands step up, phase out the lure. If he knows how to target, then he already knows he'll be rewarded for targeting and no lure will be required.

Here's the other links I have on nipping/stepping up.
Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk: Respecting the Bite

Living With Parrots Cage Free: Bucky and Strider - Millet Eating Fiends!

A ?Bird Attacking? Question | Lara Joseph
A Question About an Issue with Nipping | Lara Joseph

Positive reinforcement | Learning Parrots


Birds typically don't step up for two reasons. 1.) They don't want to 2.) They don't know what you are asking them to do.

If they don't know what you are asking, you can either force them to step up (pressing into their stomach/breast - off-balancing them, using another object to scare them onto your hand, laddering the bird, etc - anything the bird does not like to attain the required end result) or you can teach him to step up (using a treat to lure the parrot over to you and reward the bird each step up the way, teach the bird to target then target the bird onto your hand, essentially teaching the bird that coming to you and stepping up is a good thing).

Force often removes a birds choice, and teaches them that no matter what, they must obey. This may lead to birds that bite and avoid the hand when you ask them to step up.

Positive reinforcement is more like guidance. You guide and teach, and give them the option to choose to not do what you ask. Do it right, and you'll end up with a bird who asks to step up because it wants to, not because it has to.

Some people use a combination of both and it works, but it doesn't always.


In short, they don't instinctively know what behaviors they are supposed to do when they are born. You can't just present your finger and expect them to step up. If I was at a restaurant with no silverware and someone shoved a couple of "sticks" (i.e. chopsticks) in front of my face, I'd probably stab my food with the 'sticks' and try and eat it that way! I don't know how to eat food with chopsticks because I've never been taught how to eat food that way! (I've also never bothered teaching myself) If someone were to *show* me how to use them correctly (how to hold them in the right position, where to hold them at, etc), I could probably do it! (or if I taught myself...)

Definitely try and see things from your birds perspective and see if he understands what it is you are asking him to do.

 

[Cozmo]

Thanks so much for your advice it's always appreciated. I will read all the links you provided.

I have been doing target training and positive reinforcement with Cozmo with a stick and he's been doing very well. I've tried trying to put the stick beyond my hand so that he has to step on my hand to target the stick but he'll either try to reach as far as he can to get the stick so that he doesn't have to touch my hand or he'll just go away and not pay any more attention to the target until I remove my hand. Is it ok to let him beak and groom my fingers and hand or is that going to teach him to bite? Once in awhile when he gets frustrated he runs accross the perch and lunges at my finger an beaks a little harder than normal so at that point I tell him no and ignore him.

I have 2 horses and 2 dogs and I don't think I've every worked this hard and read so much to try to figure him out. I don't know where you live but I wish it was in Arizona so you could teach this idoit personally. I feel like most days I take one step forward and 3 steps backward with him and it's so dissapointing.

Everyone talks about how loving and cuddly their birds are but so far Cozmo really doesn't want much to do with me just wants to be in his cage or on his playpen. Plus he goes to bed in his tent at 5 so no time at night to enjoy him.

 

[legal_eagle]

In observing people interact with parrots, I've noticed that if you hesitate or wait when getting them to step up they will often become confused and nip or bite. In my experience, you are much less likely to be bitten if you press your finger against the lower part of the bird's chest, right above its legs, in one steady motion while saying "step up." The bird doesn't have time to think and just reacts instinctively by stepping up to avoid being pushed backwards. And when your hand is that close it is difficult for the parrot to reach it with its bill. (Similarly, if a bird is reaching down to bite while perched on your hand, you can twist your hand quickly a few times to throw the bird slightly off balance, which distracts it and teaches that biting won't get it any satisfaction.)

Hope that helps.

 

[MonicaMc]

I've tried trying to put the stick beyond my hand so that he has to step on my hand to target the stick but he'll either try to reach as far as he can to get the stick so that he doesn't have to touch my hand or he'll just go away and not pay any more attention to the target until I remove my hand.
You are asking him too much too soon, then. You want him to touch the target and you want him to be comfortable around your hand. Even if he doesn't touch your hand the first 10 or 100 times you target him to come closer to your hand, that's ok! As long as he learns that your hand is not a scary thing, and you can continually target him closer and closer, don't worry about whether or not he'll immediately target onto your hand. Make it a gradual thing. Set him up for success!

Is it ok to let him beak and groom my fingers and hand or is that going to teach him to bite?
If you are fine with it, and he doesn't bite, it's ok. You can also give him foot toys, beads, bottle caps, craft sticks, leather strips and other things he can explore with if he's getting a little too obsessive.

Once in awhile when he gets frustrated he runs accross the perch and lunges at my finger an beaks a little harder than normal so at that point I tell him no and ignore him.
If he's getting frustrated, you may want to back up and give him a break. You want each training session to end on a positive note, not on a negative one, so try not to 'over work' him.

I have 2 horses and 2 dogs and I don't think I've every worked this hard and read so much to try to figure him out. I don't know where you live but I wish it was in Arizona so you could teach this idoit personally. I feel like most days I take one step forward and 3 steps backward with him and it's so dissapointing.
I live in northern Nevada, or as I like to call it, Hell! (Reno is so close to Hell that you can see Sparks!)

Birds certainly are a different kind of character, though! LOL And I really feel that it's a lot easier to train a bird when you can see someone train a bird in person. Reading about it just isn't the same as physically seeing it and how it's done! And all those Youtube videos???? Ugh.... I don't like many of them! LOL

Everyone talks about how loving and cuddly their birds are but so far Cozmo really doesn't want much to do with me just wants to be in his cage or on his playpen. Plus he goes to bed in his tent at 5 so no time at night to enjoy him.
My cherry headed conure wasn't really a people bird. He preferred spending time with the birds and if I had him for more than 5 minutes at a time, he would become edgy and want to go back to his cage. I had done *so much* reading on how clownish and cuddly cherry headed conures are, and then I had this bird who preferred sitting inside it's cage rather than spending time with me! Only time I could keep him interested in myself was when I took him on walks around the neighborhood as he would sit on my shoulder, enjoying the sites and the sounds. If it got dark and chilly, he would snuggle up next to my neck to keep warm. Other than that and me being a transport between his cage and "his" apple tree, he really didn't care much for my interaction!

Granted, Noel was an older bird when I got him, hadn't really been handled/worked with in over 5 years, no clue how he was in his first home, he was not clownish or interactive... we didn't have that close bond that you often see and read about, but we still had a special connection! I miss him so much, and wish I had another cherry head! Charlie was given to me as a cherry head, and there are times I wish he was one, but he's a "my-turd" - and I still love my little feathered brat!

So I know where you are coming from! Even though Noel has been gone for over 3 years now and I have Charlie that "fills" the hole of having an interactive/cuddly/noisy/playful/fun conure, I still get jealous when I see people with cuddly, goofy and interactive cherry heads!



As for what legal_eagle said, I don't recommend it...

 

[Peeko]

I personally wouldn't recommend jerking your hand to throw him off balance, either. Especially if he is already not comfortable with you. It might put him off even more. I was told to use that method with Peeko, and all it accomplished was him not wanting to stand on my hand at all (he came back around, but he's a very people-oriented bird, so it would be different with a skittish bird).