Too many questions, not enough answers lol

[Thekatsmeow]

1. Do pet birds have a pecking order? When Rocky is on top of her cage and above my head she will not step up and will not hesitate to bite hard.
2. How can I tell if her eye flaring and tail fanning is aggression towards me or excited to see me?
3. Where can I find free info on reading amazon body language? She bit me so hard last time that now my anxiety is getting the best of me. We had such a good day yesterday and today was the total opposite.
I am so afraid that I made the wrong decision thinking I could handle her. I just want her to have a good life and be healthy and happy. I am considering asking her vet if they know of a behaviorist that will work with us. I am going to wait a few more months to see if this is her normal behavior because I have never seen anyone else handle her. So frustrated! I know that zons need a confident owner but I have to say after the last bite, my confidence is dwindling fast.

 

[Joshmackow]

This is a new bird of yours?

the first thing I would say is for the first 3-4 months do not let her on the top of her cage or above your head at all. This will let her think she is above you. This includes sitting on the shoulder. Pecking orders definitely exist!

Eye flaring and tail fanning is most normally a sign of aggression, birds fluff when they are happy and relaxed. We call it psycho mode haha.

The other thing, if they bite, fight back a little. Don't pull away but push towards her beak if she ever bites. this will show her that you are not afraid and will fight back and will be the top. The last thing we do is make sure we play rough with our amazon. Pick it up with both hands, flip it upside down and even pat it nice and hard when it is out on the back. Not too rough, but enough that it is showing some dominance. Don't let your bird get away with not stepping up. Will create a bad habit.

All normal things to go through. I did, learnt the hard way but it gets easier.

 

[Thekatsmeow]

Just in case someone did agree that there is a pecking order I moved her cage off the stand and onto the floor. I now look down on her and if she is on top of her cage for play, she is still below me. I don't allow her on my shoulder anyway. We are still bonding and she is still learning to trust me. She hates my husband so it would be me getting bit if he came near me with her on me. Don't need all that going on so close to my face! I can't imagine handling her so rough though. Perhaps a few months down the road when she trusts me a bit more I will consider it. If she were a baby, I can see teaching her rougher play but if I even attempted flipping her on her back I would lose a finger at least. I don't make aggressive or fast movements around her because that only stirs up the crazy. I don't want to antagonize her into a bad mood so if she lunges to bite me I just close her cage and ignore her. Having to keep her in her cage when she is mood flipping makes me feel like a bad owner. I got her to be a companion. I already have 2 other birds that are bonded to each other and would prefer to not be handled.

 

[Joshmackow]

The one thing I completely disagree with is how you respond to her biting. You cannot ever pull away when a bird goes to bite or they learn that they can win with that action. You must push back on them and get them to see it isn't appropriate. Sure, don't do it for long. But make sure that they know.

Your husband should do the exact same thing if he goes to bit her. the idea is to be friendly and loving but not let it bully or push you.

Since we have been doing this with Peanut he has improved a thousand fold. Just pick him up with both hands wrapped around his body and move him around. Just lets him get used to the idea of you being in control. But do it once. Then put him down. Use treats when he is good as well. Love training and not letting him get away with anything

 

[Joshmackow]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4te3Ara6Mps]Cressi gets body slammed! - YouTube[/ame]

Perfect example! They call it the body slam

 

[Thekatsmeow]

How long did Peanut know you before you picked him up that way? I am considering having a friend of mine handle Rocky that way to see what she does.

 

[Joshmackow]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2cGkvN9yJE&feature=relmfu]African Greys who don't play - YouTube[/ame]

here is him explaining a bit more I do this with my brothers Amazon peanuts, he didn't like it much at first, but now loves it!

 

[Thekatsmeow]

Okay there is a huge difference between my level of knowledge and JamieLeigh's. Those 2 train for a living and have had those birds for years. I have to establish a bond with her before I go freaking her out with snatching her up like that.

 

[Joshmackow]

Umm, after a few days of continuous playing they start to get used to it. Just takes some time. Be patient. He still gets defensive on the sides of his cage and a bit on top. But quickly improving the more we push him. But for short bursts of time.

 

[Joshmackow]

confidence and not being afraid is number 1 in my opinion with birds. They will teach you what you need to know in most cases. But every bird trainer says to never pull away or they learn to do it more.

 

[Thekatsmeow]

Do you know of any info on amazon body language? Learning primate behavior was so much easier!

 

[Joshmackow]

What I have noticed, flaring eyes and tail is very defensive and they get very angry. Slick feathers and raising the head says don't touch me. But any fluffing is good. I can't explain it well but you just end up learning the more you play, each bird is different

 

[MonicaMc]

There's no such thing as dominance in parrots. Trying to dominate birds can potentially "break" them, causing behavioral problems or birds who don't do anything and want nothing to do with humans. Works great in some birds, but not in others. All dominance is is flooding, and does not work on the basis of positive interactions between human and bird.

1. Do pet birds have a pecking order? When Rocky is on top of her cage and above my head she will not step up and will not hesitate to bite hard.
Yes, and no. Birds fight and bicker about best perches, food and even mates. Birds don't mate for life! They have "divorces" and will repair up.

Rocky probably doesn't want to come down because she doesn't have a reason to. It is more rewarding for her to be up on the top of her cage than somewhere else that she may feel less secure at or a place that is more boring. To get her off the top of the cage, you need to give her a good reason to come down!

I don't have a large parrot, but I can say that none of my birds defend the top of their cages to the point they refuse to come down. Casey loves scritches and millet, so she's easy to persuade! Charlie, if he's in a bad mood, might try and attack me, but at the same time, he doesn't want to be left alone on top of his cage! He'd rather be with me than on his cage. It's more rewarding to both birds to be with me than their cage!

The ones who aren't tame/easy to handle, for them, it's where-ever the food is at! If it's inside the cage, they'd rather be inside munching away than the top of the cage!

2. How can I tell if her eye flaring and tail fanning is aggression towards me or excited to see me?
It's not free, but I would highly suggest Barbara Heidreneich's DVD - Understanding Parrot Body Language
Parrot Training DVDS | Good Bird Training DVDS

It really helps show the differences between a parrots body language. If your zons legs are spread apart, feathers ruffled on the nape of the neck, body feathers fluffed up, eyes pinning, tale flared, you probably want to keep your distance!

If you are only seeing some of that behavior, then it might be ok. You would really have to learn her body language.

3. Where can I find free info on reading amazon body language? She bit me so hard last time that now my anxiety is getting the best of me. We had such a good day yesterday and today was the total opposite.
Not free, but as I mentioned, the DVD.

As far as bites go, I've rather avoid getting bitten personally, rather than offering my flesh to a parrot and allowing them to bite me! There was only one parrot I'd allow to bite me, and he bit me not because she was upset with me, but because he needed to make sure that I was a stable perch. He had poor grip, poor eye-sight, failing health. When he bit me, it was just one quick hard bite and that was that. If I pulled away or pushed or anything to try and get him to stop biting me, I was telling him that I was not a stable perch which would only lead to more biting.

For every other parrot out there in the world that is healthy, why offer your flesh and stand there until the parrot stops biting? It doesn't make any sense to me! If you're lucky, the technique will work, but on the flip side, you may teach your parrot that you aren't paying attention to *his* body language saying that he is going to bite so he might as well skip the displays trying to tell you he's going to bite if you don't back off now, and go straight for the bite!

 

[Thekatsmeow]

Okay that sounds a bit more my speed. When she lunges to bite me I turn around and walk away. I usually act like I am eating something so fantastic and that she missed out. I want her to feel secure that if she doesn't want messed with then I will leave her alone but I don't want her to bully me either. If I treated her roughly she would only snap into crazy mode and what would be the point in that for me? How is that supposed to be productive? I don't want her to think my hands could hurt her but in the same sense, I don't want her to think hurting me is alright either. Thank you for the dvd referral. I will look into it

 

[Joshmackow]

It's funny, I tried exactly what you said with Peanut and he completely disregarded it with no growth for 2 weeks. After playing rough and showing him he can't bite me it took 2-3 days for him to become playful and happy.

 

[MonicaMc]

I really like Melina Johnson's book Clicker Training Birds. It's a great "how to" and explains the process and the steps to do it in. Barbara Heidenreich has DVD's on training, which is a great visual. Together, they make a better learning experience than alone - unless you can get a trainer to show you how to work with your birds in person!

I'd rather spend my time getting to know a bird, and allowing the bird to choose to be with me rather than forcing myself upon the bird and giving them no choice. Birds who have lost trust in humans or those who aren't used to being handled by humans will take longer.


Some other great trainers/behaviorists include Karen Pryor, Susan Friedman and Lara Joseph. Thinking of which... you may enjoy reading the blogs of both Barbara Heidenreich and Lara Joseph!

Lara Joseph

Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk


And if you have Facebook (might be able to view without? Not sure...)
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Good-Bird-Inc-Barbara-Heidenreich/301503446973?sk=notes


They have some amazing words of wisdom and advise!

 

[MonicaMc]

It's funny, I tried exactly what you said with Peanut and he completely disregarded it with no growth for 2 weeks. After playing rough and showing him he can't bite me it took 2-3 days for him to become playful and happy.

As I said, that technique works for some birds, but not all.


My biggest question is, when given the choice, does your parrot seek you out? If he was flighted, would he fly to you? Or would he fly away from you?


If the bird goes to you on his/her own choice without you asking, then you've done a great job! If the bird doesn't, even after all that training and advice, you're doing it wrong.

 

[Joshmackow]

He does seek to be with us. He jumps off his perch and joins us in the kitchen and screams when we walk out of the room. So gorgeous. Loves kisses and plays.

I can see what you are saying, but trying t he jealousy method of leaving him alone if he strikes was not the right answer for us but in no way did we force him to do what he didn't want to do. We just showed him that IF he bites, it will not get him the response he wants and that is to get rid of us. We basically weened the biting out of him.

We positively reinforce good behaviour and show him the bad will not get him what he wants while we learnt HIS body language and what his actions mean for us. Anyone can now get him out of the cage from anywhere

 

[Lintini]

I wish to be more confident with my newish (June 2012) adopted grey. She flew off her cage into my rabbits pen the other day and I made my boyfriend get her even though she hasn't bitten anyone but I am still scared

 

[JerseyWendy]

It's funny, I tried exactly what you said with Peanut and he completely disregarded it with no growth for 2 weeks. After playing rough and showing him he can't bite me it took 2-3 days for him to become playful and happy.

I may be wrong, but I believe Peanut is a fairly young bird, is he not?

I would NEVER advise anybody to pick up an older/untrusting Amazon in the way you showed/described, and certainly not to play rough.

I can promise you this: If anybody (brave enough) was to pick up my VERY trusting YN in this manner (other than me), my usually extremely sweet and gentle bird WILL react in an unpleasant manner