'Too flying attacks at head

[maggenpie]

I've posted on the cockatoo thread about Gwynn, so a quick read there will give background - he's had a bad time, I haven't had him long and I'm still finding out why he's been through so many people in a short space of time.

This evening things were going really well. He was flying from the top of his cage across the room to me for food, happy and talking. I'd partly closed the curtains to reduce the risk of him flying into the windows. As the sun went down, seeing that he was fine, I decided to pull the curtains back to let more light in.

It was a Very Bad Thing. Because my windows are tall I use a cane to move the curtains. Gwynn has seen this performance every day, morning and night for the few days he's been with me. This time though, he was outside the cage and he took fright and, I thought at the time, flew into my face by accident. I spoke comfortingly and offered a titbit, he lunged and bit me. I turned my back and he flew at my head again and again, beak and claws. When he returned to his cage door, I left the room for a couple of minutes.

When I went back in, I greeted him, sat back down as if nothing had happened and offered food but he wouldn't come to me. I moved to a closer seat and put food on the back of another chair. Gradually he crept closer until he took the food. After that he took food from me and accepted a head scratch and settled as close to me as he could, and started beak grinding. Good, I thought, he's got over his fright and we're friends again.

Wrong. I suggested it was time for bed. Put a bowl of his favourite seed mix in his cage. He flew at my head, beak and claws again.

It was now getting dark, he should have been in his cage long ago but he was sitting on his door, refusing to go in. So I was wondering how to handle this. He wasn't going to like whatever I did and I hated the thought of setting back our relationship.

I got sneaky. I sprayed him with water until he got fed up and went in the cage. He didn't get cross with me, so no harm done. He's perfectly happy again now, having fed and was talking away - and sounding quite pleased with himself. Now he's singing our nightly settling down duet, all sweet again.

So, the big question - where do I go from here? Did I handle the situation wrong?

 

[paulhanlon]

I think you handled the situation well getting sprayed by water is safer way to get your bird back in the cage than toweling him I'm just shocked he attacked you the way he did its clear something must have spooked him at the time as birds don't attack for no reason unless it has reached maturity or its breeding season these are the times when attacks can happen but it isn't your fault these things happen as long as your friends again that's what counts

 

[maggenpie]

Thanks for the reassurance, Paul. As I said on the cockatoo thread, I knew there had to be reasons for people being afraid of him. (The man who took him to a petshop six weeks ago wouldn't get him out of his box, the woman who bought him two weeks later only kept him a week, the husband of the foster lady who I got him from wouldn't be in the room when he was out of his cage.) I was certain he'd bitten and that would be enough for most people. The flying beak and claws attack was a bit of a shock though.

I imagine that when he started to show unwelcome behaviour his previous owners dealt with it badly. I can see sticks and towels being waved and flapped in an effort to control him, can't you? I poked a teatowel through the bars of his cage on our first day together and we use it to play peep bo. The first time though, he thoroughly killed it.

The top of his cage is taller than me so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to put the cage down lower, to give me some superiority. Any other ideas anyone?

 

[Conuregirl]

honestly i dont think you can trust this bird for a while. i think he was testing you and seeing how far he can get. has it had any training? does it have a preference of certain people? does it lunge at you when you are by the cage? any cage aggression?

 

[Conuregirl]

i think you may have to try one on one training time in another room, away from the cage. i don't know if this is too advance for you guys yet. maybe you need a behavior specialist.

i handled aggro birds before with toweling. if they didn't want to back in the cage, either turn off most of the lights and they go in. if the bird lunges with the beak open, i put my hand right in their face to make them back off. i don't you should do this until you see someone demostrate this. i think you need to earn his trust and that may take some time, like a few weeks or months.

 

[paulhanlon]

Thanks for the reassurance, Paul. As I said on the cockatoo thread, I knew there had to be reasons for people being afraid of him. (The man who took him to a petshop six weeks ago wouldn't get him out of his box, the woman who bought him two weeks later only kept him a week, the husband of the foster lady who I got him from wouldn't be in the room when he was out of his cage.) I was certain he'd bitten and that would be enough for most people. The flying beak and claws attack was a bit of a shock though.

I imagine that when he started to show unwelcome behaviour his previous owners dealt with it badly. I can see sticks and towels being waved and flapped in an effort to control him, can't you? I poked a teatowel through the bars of his cage on our first day together and we use it to play peep bo. The first time though, he thoroughly killed it.

The top of his cage is taller than me so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to put the cage down lower, to give me some superiority. Any other ideas anyone?

If you think you need to bring the cage down abit I say go for it personally I don't think he sounds like a bad bird but target training is a good way to get a bird back in its cage and i honestly think that the first owner of this bird did not treat it the right way but just go with target training him and bond with him more in due time he should be fine i don't think a behaviour expert is nessasery with alot of training and patience you will have a very loving bird

 

[melissasparrots]

I think you were on the right track with leaving him in the cage. I read your post on the behavior thread and I think he has some nasty history to overcome and for now you should keep interactions short. I'd start out with some basic clicker training while he's inside the cage. Click, treat, click, treat, click, treat over and over again. Then start some target training getting him to move toward a spoon or chopstick or some other little target before getting the click and treat. You can read up on clicker training if you haven't already. It provides you with a very clear way to mark positive behavior.
I would continue with sitting next to him and all the stuff you've been doing up until the point where you let him out. I would not let him out again until he's willing to step up for you without aggression from inside the cage.

During your preening sessions, you might try getting him used to you just very briefly and occasionally touching his feet. That would be a good thing to mark with the clicker and a treat if he allows it. Slowly work on using the clicker to get him to step up from inside the cage. Even if the start is just letting you put your hand in position without biting, then slowly working to a foot up then click and treat. If you see aggression at any point, no treat, back up and try again. If you see aggression again close the door and just talk to him through the bars. Watch his body language and don’t get close if you see warning behavior so the bite never happens and you never get the showdown. When he can show that he's willing to step up nicely from inside the cage without aggression for a few days, then you can consider walking a few steps away from the cage with him on your hand. If he has such a nasty history of attacking aggression, I would not let him guilt you into thinking he needs to come out to be happy. If you don't have enough control and good training into him to get him back in without a major drama, then don't let him out. When you do eventually get to the point of thinking about letting him out, try it only on you. Short 2-5 minute or less sessions sitting on your knee or on your hand. Then right back in the cage before he has a head rush and decides to get nasty. Make him earn extended out time by slowly increasing his time out until you hit certain situations that trigger aggression. Then go back to less time out or if you can find easily defined triggers, just avoid those things. Mark a non-aggressive step down back in the cage with a click and treat. That way your patterning him later for not throwing a fit about going back. The clicker is your means of communication.

Before letting him just out to play on cage top, I’d start training him to step up from the top of his cage door and then from the top of the cage. No major freedom to do whatever he wants until he’s shown you he will step up from cage top. If you just can’t get past that, then take him to a different room in the house where there is nothing for him to fly to that is over your shoulder height.
Also, try to avoid gloves. Every bird that I've ever had that saw gloves on my hand had a major fear reaction. They just make hands look grotesque and monstrously scary.
For the aloe, if you decide to use it, use it only for a couple weeks or less. Aloe will actually dry the skin and leach nutrients long term. So you end up in a nasty cycle, you need the aloe to sooth the itch caused by the aloe. It will appear the bird is deriving relief from the aloe but only because the aloe itself is the cause. If your going to see results using aloe juice, you'll see it within a few days. Unless your seeing major improvement, I'd drop it after 7-10 days.

Hope that makes sense. I'm watching the olympics, and I have a chatty amazon making a racket so I might have some fragmented thoughts in there.

 

[Conuregirl]

Thanks for the reassurance, Paul. As I said on the cockatoo thread, I knew there had to be reasons for people being afraid of him. (The man who took him to a petshop six weeks ago wouldn't get him out of his box, the woman who bought him two weeks later only kept him a week, the husband of the foster lady who I got him from wouldn't be in the room when he was out of his cage.) I was certain he'd bitten and that would be enough for most people. The flying beak and claws attack was a bit of a shock though.

I imagine that when he started to show unwelcome behaviour his previous owners dealt with it badly. I can see sticks and towels being waved and flapped in an effort to control him, can't you? I poked a teatowel through the bars of his cage on our first day together and we use it to play peep bo. The first time though, he thoroughly killed it.

The top of his cage is taller than me so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to put the cage down lower, to give me some superiority. Any other ideas anyone?

If you think you need to bring the cage down abit I say go for it personally I don't think he sounds like a bad bird but target training is a good way to get a bird back in its cage and i honestly think that the first owner of this bird did not treat it the right way but just go with target training him and bond with him more in due time he should be fine i don't think a behaviour expert is nessasery with alot of training and patience you will have a very loving bird

hey, bro... friendly parrots with no psychological/behavioral issues don't do fly attacks on their handler; this 'too is in deed a rescue type and needs discipline. it has no trust for anyone and may act very sweet until it pretends to ask for a scratch to bite you.

i am suggesting the OP to use caution and it must be supervised. the head attacks can do serious damage. this bird may be too much for a beginner for rehabilitation. i don't know this 'too and he may turn around and be a good bird. however, there are some that cannot be handled and belong in a sanctuary because they will never be a pet.

 

[Sarahtheumbrella]

It's a new home, new family, new surroundings.

For a second put yourself in the bird's place. a little girl with a nice home. You try to get to know the people like a few, and then your gone.

1st new place: new place new people. Try to get to know them .Like a few and make a few mistakes. Your gone.
2nd place. Okay talk be happy still not so sure about people.
4th place. Alright really?(and from I what I understand they probably did so very negative things)People! ehhh...kinda untrustworthy.
6th place (you): I give up. What is the point of human friendship. How long will I be here? A week? I am frustrated, I am terrified, I do not trust!

After my overly explanitory explanation, it is obvious that there is going to be a whole lot of scar tissues in the bird's brain. I do not think that you should think at all at this stage that you are friends. More like you are his caretaker. Nothing more than food and and a scratch every now and then.

I would not turn your back on him for extended periods. Do not move any big things when he is out of cage. Do not make sudden movements.

An extreme method, but may work, but definitely adds trust.
1. No (or very limited) physical contact.
2. Talk to him, sing to him, read to him, but do not touch him.
3. While talking to him and singing to him give him treats in his bowl (not directly)
4. After two months or so take BABY steps, such as giving him treats directly. Then if he starts asking for pets give him a pet. Only if he asks however, not when you want.

This worked with Sarah and she doesn't try biting me at all, it builds mutual trust.

I think this bird more than a cuddle buddy needs trust. Needs to get used to the surroundings, used to the people, to the noises. The bird needs to know that you are there as a friend and require nothing out of him. As the people before you probably thought, hey this is a cockatoo. Must mean all they want is pets, and after all these bad petting experiences, I am sure he is tired of the whole cuddly cockatoo thing.

As conuregirl stated, fly attacks are very very very serious as the bird is actually going for you. As in putting effort into seriously hurting someone. It is not just an irritation bite we all get every now and then.This cockatoo is a big challenge, but I think rehoming this bird would be inhumane in a way unless taken in by a VERY VERY experienced and wise bird handler, or given to a sanctuary.

But don't get your head in the dumps. You get out what you put in. If you indeed want to save a life, you have to believe you can. Everyone was a beginner once! I think you should atleast try, but if this bird is a danger to people, or backslides more and more everyday, it may need to be put in a sanctuary.

Some really bad un- knowledgeable advice: I am NOT sure (as I had no previous experience with this), but maybe clipping would be a good choice... I would researching clipping a lot more maybe make a new thread, but just my opinion.

Hope this helps. It helped my phobic cockatoo, but the situation you face is very different. Do not push stepping up, petting or anything. This bird is miraculously sane after 6 households. Best of the best luck!

 

[melissasparrots]

The top of his cage is taller than me so I'm thinking it might be a good idea to put the cage down lower, to give me some superiority. Any other ideas anyone?

Lowering the cage IMO would be a good idea. There used to be something called height dominance theory which is now largely dismissed. However, I do think birds know when you can't reach them or don't have as much control over them physically and will exploit it. It will also aid your step up training if you can reach him easily.

I would try to avoid using water as punishment. In this case as a one time event to get him off you, its probably preferable to forcably flinging him accross the room. But its not very trust verifying. Any time you have a showdown like that, the only possible end result is destruction of trust for one or both of you. Sulfer crests have a reputation for being a little hypervigalent. Normally fear behavior is more common, but your bird might have learned to strike first preemptively. As someone else said, make sure when your offering scritches etc. that he actually wants it. Try to manipulate situations such that he wants to step up and always put him down or leave him wanting more. Make him work to get your attention by cute antics and cute vocalizations that can be easily rewarded. Don't punish him or turn it into a my will against your's if he won't. Just passively deny him treats or freedom until he proves he can be decent. Expect him to backslide periodically too. I think you can start seeing improvement fairly quickly. But it might take years before you have a really trustworthy bird. I don't think your going to need to resort to a sanctuary. Thats no place to be for a bird IMO with no hope of ever getting out.

I know its incredibly unpopular in Europe, but if he were my bird, I'd be sorely tempted to clip the outer three flight feathers on each wing. Usually that isn't enough to really bother them or prevent them from flying. It just makes it harder for them to fly and they have to really want it. It basically makes them think twice about just how bad they want to work to attack you.

Finally, there will be plenty of people responding to your posts. The ones to pay the most attention to IMO are from the people that actually have cockatoos. Cockatoos are a different deal than most parrots. Lots of people will chime in with some advice, that might even be good advice and work. But if it sounds a little off and the person hasn't had long term cockatoo experience with solving their behavior problems in a home environment, probably take their advice with a grain of salt.

 

[maggenpie]

Thanks for all the replies folks. I'm taking it all in and seeing what fits with what's going on. No harm seems to have come from yesterday's escapades and we're on good terms. He hasn't asked to come out and I haven't offered. He's had titbits and a head rub but I'm not pushing his boundaries.

Just to clarify something about the water spray, I used it very gently, just like when we do it as a morning shower. I just knew that when he got wet enough he'd wander off, and he did - back into the cage as I'd hoped. Once he was in he was fine and happy.

I'm trying to work this out from his point of view. Perhaps you'll all help me out with my reasoning.

Okay, we know he's had bad enough behaviour over a long enough period of time for a series of people to give up on him. He reacted to my moving the curtains - whether it was the cane or my raised arm or both - by going for me. I've worked with dogs that do this, they are scared and attack but the root of it is defensive - I assume the same applies? Then what he's learned from the past would be something like 'I get scared, I attack human, human attacks me (towel, shouting, whatever), I get shut in my cage and can't get out.' The human loses confidence, leading to more nervous biting and he gets moved on to a new home and it starts all over again, each time worse than the last as he learns how this cycle goes.

My aim all the time last night was not to react that way. I got him to accept titbits and a head rub and he chose to settle down as close to me as he could get without being on me. But I only said 'bedtime' and my thoughts and actions around preparing for that - literally, just filling his seed dish and thinking about him having to go in - were enough to start the 'I'm going to be trapped in the cage if I go in it' fear, so he went for me again. On top of that, once he sat on the door, I did get the feeling he was testing how far he can push me to get his own way. But I did win, without upsetting him at all and in the end he chose to go in the cage.

He doesn't have to be cuddly tame to have a good life here with me. (If I wanted a cuddly baby I'd have bought one.) I can work with boundaries if he can't bring himself to trust me. But there's a large part of him that obviously wants to, chosing to sit next to me, eating his treats beside me rather than flying off with them. He needs company and if I respect his issues and gently work with him I hope we can come to an arrangement that leads to contentment. I know it's going to take a long time to undo the harm that's built up.

About wing clipping, I've thought about it, even before I decided to have him. But getting to know him the past few days - and it has only been a few days - I'm afraid the upset it would cause to do it would set him back. Right now I'm reluctant to do anything that will make him distrust me, or people in general.

I've also been looking at clicker training and targeting. I understand how it works but I've not tried it yet. As for training him in another room away from the cage - that's simply not an option at this point. I touch his feet while talking to him when he's hanging on the bars. He's not at all comfortable of having my hand near his feet or chest without that barrier at present. I'm bearing in mind that the last time he stepped up for someone it ended in a stressful chase and being caught in a towel and put in a box. The dear of him, I held his toes through the carrier all the way home that evening and he was talking and clicking to me the whole time. He wants to trust me, I'm sure, but poor lad, he's been betrayed and abandoned so many times.

 

[lizardsmells]

I don't have cockatoos (and like Melissa said, they're different from other birds, so be careful which advice you follow from some members) but working at the rescue has exposed me to lots of birds, most with some pretty heinous issues, and it all boils down to the same thing, no matter if it's parrots or dogs or horses or what - traumatized animals lack trust and confidence. Poor Gwen, it sounds like, has been bounced around so many times it's no wonder he doesn't trust anyone. He probably has no idea what's going on or any sense of stability yet.

Kazi is an amazon, but he exhibited some pretty similar behaviors to Gwen he first met me at the rescue and then later when he came home with me. It was pretty plainly clear he wanted to be next to me and to interact with me, but he couldn't quite bring himself to get close to me physically. Even still, you could really tell he wanted to trust me and come to me. It took time, several months, but eventually he would step up for me at the rescue. Once he got home he needed more time. He's been here about 7 months now and his confidence is coming back, or building if he never had any.

I know I sound like a whackadoo when I say this, but I truly believe parrots can pick up our intent, if not the outright meaning, behind our words. Have you told Gwen that he's safe, and in his forever home now? I said it to Kazi dozens of times when he first came home, usually when I noticed him getting iffy about me. I may be nuts, but I swear it helped.

Good luck with Gwen. Kazi can't fly (he's damaged his primaries so badly only the end 3 grow anymore and he managed to chew them up fairly well) and I do think that helps us a lot around here. He desperately hates my husband and frequently heads off across the floor to show him how much he hates him by going after his toes. I can't imagine the carnage if Kazi was flighted! However, Kazi is also almost never caged except at night or when I'm gone.

But mostly I wanted to post to say THANK YOU for taking in an older, troubled bird. Babies are easy (at first anyway!) but the adults in rescue need us more, I think. It breaks my heart when I'm up at the rescue and see yet another abandoned or neglected parrot come in. But hearing of another one adopted makes it better

 

[maggenpie]

Thanks, Lizardsmells, your reply is heartening. We seem to have benefited in some small way for yesterday's drama. Gwynn isn't asking to come out but he is wanting gentle beak rubs and we've had a couple of really special moments when it's felt like we are on the same wavelength. The first time he refused an offered treat and instead put his beak to the bars and pressed into my finger and we were 'together' - I'm sure you understand what I'm saying. It's moments like that, that make me believe I can do this for Gwynn and perhaps we passed some sort of test yesterday. Possibly I'm the first person to forgive and comfort him after he's lost control. 'Scared Gwynn' I think I can try to understand and help. 'Bossy Gwynn' is another matter and as a first timer I have a lot to learn.

No, I don't don't think it's whacky to believe birds know our intent. In dog training it's often said that nerves travel down the lead. The same with horses. When I had my daughter's (disabled) crow - a very forceful character - I could get her to do what I wanted better by thinking than by words.

I'm doing more clicker/target training researching right now, and Gwynn is loving the youtube videos I'm finding!

 

[lizardsmells]

Haha, I get Bossy Kazi about daily, but Amazons have a rep for being kind of pushy He likes to test his limits with me, but he's learned I don't take any guff from a parrot. His previous homes taught him that biting would get him what he wants (left alone) but he's learned differently living here since it never elicits the reaction he wants. I wonder if Gwen hadn't learned at some point that flying at people would make them go away or leave him alone? I don't know, I'm just speculating here, but either way, good on you for adopting him. It sounds like he finally landed in a home where he'll be treated well and loved, parrot faults and all.

 

[Alisana]

Sorry - I haven't had a chance to read through each post, I just skimmed - so if it's been said already, disregard my message

There is a possibility that the action you did may have induced a 'bad memory' from a previous owner, and he was trying to protect himself from it happening again. The other possibility is if a 'shadow' passed over him, his instincts may have kicked in - fear of attack from above.

I would suggest keep the interactions short - but frequent.

It's a shame you aren't in Australia - there are some really good people who work with cockatoos at the Parrot Rescue Centre and some of the local Sanctuaries. I'm not sure if it's worth emailing them, or just wait and see what people have to say on the forums here. (Some schools here Parrot Rescue Centre | Caring for Parrots in Australia Ask around and see if you have anyone local though, ideally someone who is familiar with cockatoo training/behaviour)

Not towelling him was a good choice on your behalf. If anything, it might have scared him even more. While it's too early to towel-train him, it's probably a good idea to not scare him of the towel to begin with. You never know when you might need him to be in one to hold at the vet or when administering medication. I would work on building trust first though.

Another thing to keep in mind is let him ask/want the interaction. Same with step up/time out of cage. Even a simple thing as being asked to 'step up' all the time can be stressful for parrots because they're not used to being 'forced' to do something.

Hope it works out. It sounds like you're a very willing owner and are committed to making the relationship work with Gwynn - it may take months, or even years, but you'll get there. Remember that cockatoos live for a VERY long time, so don't expect things to happen quickly, or for them to forget either. Don't give up! This is a forum where you are always welcome to ask for help.

 

[WharfRat]

Sorry - I haven't had a chance to read through each post, I just skimmed - so if it's been said already, disregard my message

Me as well ^

Can't stress the patience thing enough, I also think spending time sitting next to the cage and talking is a great way as well. No one will ever know what that bird has been through which makes it even harder to know how to react/respond/train.

Not a Too owner but been around alot of rescued ones, some were just awesome, others (not many) were just impossible to deal with. (the birds I speak of are all rescues that were/are in different stages of self-mutilation but have improved since going to the rescue)

She actually has one there that has no feet, that bird is amazing all things considered.

Best of luck in your endeavors & thank you for rescuing a bird in need

 

[maggenpie]

So... here we are, a brand new day - hard to believe it's only day six with Gwynn.

With respect and thanks to everyone for their imput, my instinctive response is that I don't want Gwynn confined to his cage for however long it might take for him to relearn stepping up. I think it would add to his frustration and the chance to fly a bit is good for his health and mental wellbeing.

So this morning Gwynn has been out, and back in. It wasn't without some drama but we both won because I didn't back down and he went in because he wanted to. I've found out today that putting dishes in his cage triggers a flying attack. My guess is that to him, once the dishes go in, it's time to be shut inside - and probably he's been chased to get him in. So, I decided to do the opposite of what he expects. After the first attack it was obvious that he was now fearful of me. I had to go to him and put a titbit down for him to take before he'd take one from me. Only minutes before he'd been flying across the room to me for titbits, happily talking away. I put a second dish in and he flew at me again. We had a bit of a glaring match after that one so he could see I'm not backing down. He then decided to go inside and see what was in the dishes. He started feeding. I left his door open, left the room to fetch his greens and veg. When I went back in he was still inside and showing no signs of wanting to come out. I showed him the foraging toys for the day and he sampled each one before I put it in. He didn't attempt to leave the cage again so I gave him a titbit, closed the door and gave another titbit. All with lots of talking and praise of course. It strikes me that his cage before I had him was probably a lot less interesting. 'He doesn't play' I was told, but 'he likes to chase people's feet and bite toes'. Are you rolling your eyes too?

The flying attacks sound dramatic but it's really not that scary. I feel the tension, see the evil glint in his eye. He takes off, I raise my arm over my head and he grabs it in passing, doing three or four swoops before retreating to the top of the cage. Then he's worked up, panting and fearful of what I'm going to do about it - ready for a fight I suppose.

Although I want him to be out for a couple of sessions a day, for the time being I'll stick with just the morning and I'll do the food dishes before he comes out. He may find another signal to react to but I'm determined not to live up to his expectations.

My question for today is am I getting the psychology right? Or (the stepping up issue aside) am I doing something that will cause more problems? Is it better to avoid the attacks by not doing what sets them off, or brave them out until he gives up? I'm thinking of avoidance on the grounds that the real issue is that he has fears about going back in his cage. If he gets used to not being shut in the moment he goes inside, and that going in means treats and toys, the flying attacks should stop - or that's what I'm hoping.

I have to comment on the bird with no feet, WharfRat. That must take a great deal of care and understanding. I did wild bird rescue for many years and always said I'd rather a bird couldn't fly than not be able to walk. I had a few come my way with deformed legs, a couple stayed for years. They find ways coping if you can observe and help. I know my little magpie did, and she ruled the household, bossing the dogs about and following the sun from room to room. She couldn't fly and took a year and a half to learn to walk without using her wings for crutches (her feet would spasm and clench, it took a long time for her to learn to control them), and she slept on her side curled up in a bed of shavings. We had a very special bond and although she's long gone she is still a source of inspiration.

It's all about quality of life isn't it? And that's what I want for Gwynn.