Toe tapping Winston

[Mishwinnie]

I'm a new member and I'm hoping you great people could help me.
I've had my male eclectus Winston for 10 years now and 2 months ago he started toe tapping. Hes been on paradise pellets, veggies, fruits, nuts, beans, sprouts etc anyway I noticed corn made it worse so took it away immediately. It subsided but started again so I took him to the vet. The vet said remove everything and only feed vegetables, so that's what we did. The toe tapping stopped for about 1 week but then started again. We weren't sure what to do and he was so hungry so we gave quinoa with the veggies and it started again. This past week we have only been feeding brown rice, Pumpkin, zucchini, Capsicum, coconut flakes (2 a day), watermelon. That's it. We've tracked the toe tapping and it has definitely stopped during the day and reduced over the last week, but is still there at night with wing flipping. Once every 20 seconds compared to every 2. How long does it take to completely go? Could this be a deficiency instead of something triggering the cramps?? Please offer any advice you can.

 

[SailBoat]

Toe Tapping is a long understood issue with your Eclectus' Diet!
Their diet should be heavy with "Chop", a health mix of green veggies, but low on rich foods containing large amounts vitamins and minerals. Avoid Pellets!!

The Eclectus species' natural range is very limited and poor regarding the quality of what food is available. As a result they eat extensively and as a Companion Parrot that commonly results in their being overloaded with far too much of normally needed vitamins and minerals.

It is important to understand that very few Vets are aware of this unique requirement of this very special species.

 

[saxguy64]

My guy has had a couple bouts of toe tapping. It's a tricky thing to pinpoint the cause, but there's definitely some common things to look at. Pellets or any "enriched" foods can cause too high levels of vitamins. My boy is also a bit sensitive to corn, and that has caused it a couple times for him. Other things to consider a potential cause, low calcium or vitamin A, and too much protein. Been there, done that. I always keep in mind ANYTHING new in his diet, as the new item is usually to blame in his case. Corn has caused it, as well as dark purple grapes and blueberries. I believe a little hard boiled egg is helpful when he's molting, but too much... tap tap tap The tapping comes on very quickly for him, like within hours, or certainly by bedtime if it's reacting to something I gave him for breakfast. Knowing you've eliminated the right trigger is harder to know for sure, since it takes several days or longer for it to subside completely.

All that said, if possible, I would recommend a visit with an avian vet and doing a full blood work panel so they can see what levels are too low or too high, and adjust the diet from solid information rather than just guessing. Definitely keep an eye on the calcium and vitamin A as they're the most common causes that I'm aware of.

As it's basically a neurological response, there's other possibilities, but hopefully not the cause. My first battle with it and subsequent vet work up came back with a positive test for ABV. (Tested because of the neuro symptoms) Fortunately, the toe tapping was unrelated to the ABV, and he likely has one of the common strains that never cause symptoms or progress to PDD. At least we hope so. That test was 4-5 years ago, and aside from a couple diet related rounds of toe tapping, zero other symptoms, ever.

Hope some of this is helpful, and please keep us posted on Winston. I know it's scary and disheartening to see them go through it. Every time my Tucker has started, I immediately feel like I've failed him somehow, but then I work to educate myself more, and try to be better for him. They deserve the best we can offer them!

 

[Talaya]

I know this is an older post, but felt it was the right one.
My boy is sensitive to too much good food. And brassicas. Yep it took me months of trial and error for that one ..if he has too heavy percentage on brassicas he taps. or too high in fat he taps, my vet said grate over cuttlefish.. guess what he taps.. grated calcium block he taps..
Yesterday I gave him about 6 pellets in with his breakfast to make up for anything he might be missing.. he was fine in the evening. But oh boy this morning he had us both worried as he has never tapped in the morning.., but both feet were tapping, wings flips and even a head tic. Weve never seem him Like it. So today I made sure all I gave him was his chop and 3 pieces of fruit. He was also very itchy so he had a shower,
Afternoon nap and Bedtime and all has been well. Fingers crossed he’s ok in the morning.
His food is 1/3 brassicas (eg: Pak Choi or Choi sum or collard greens) to 2/3 mixed salad leaves/romaine lettuce.
+ little extra like legumes, coconut, yam, dandelion, then fruit in evening.
So I’ve learnt he definitely gets enough vitamins from his food, and he doesn’t need added calcium or pellets. I dip his plastic bolt in red palm oil for him to lick off once a month.
I hope Winston is doing ok now .

 

[Mishwinnie]

Thanks guys. He has not had pellets in years and the vet advised against them.

Unfortunately, almost one year later it still has not gone away, infact its worse now with wing flipping and he's just started holding his right foot up, i think it's now that bad and more constant that hes picking at his foot. He had full bloods this time last year and all was fine. I'm honestly at a loss. I don't know whether to take out or add in. Maybe ill go back to only vegetables and quinoa?

 

[kme3388]

Thanks guys. He has not had pellets in years and the vet advised against them.

Unfortunately, almost one year later it still has not gone away, infact its worse now with wing flipping and he's just started holding his right foot up, i think it's now that bad and more constant that hes picking at his foot. He had full bloods this time last year and all was fine. I'm honestly at a loss. I don't know whether to take out or add in. Maybe ill go back to only vegetables and quinoa?

Have you consulted a vet about the progression? I know the Ekkie diet is very debated. I am no expert. I did consult a vet though when my Ekkie was having all of the issues yours is plus he was falling off his perch. This was when I first adopted him. I was overwhelmed. They are able to do some labs to check for issues.

I do feed my Ekkie pellets. His vet recommended Harrison’s. It has no additives I believe is why. He also gets a chop. I added pasta at first to get him to eat something in it. Then I started to remove it bit by bit. I feed this to him first thing in the morning when he’s most hungry, and more prone to eat it.

Also do you weigh your parrots food? I know it was recommended for me to weigh Nico’s food to see if he was actually eating it, just moving it around, or just crumbling things up.

I’m sorry to hear you are going through some issues with plucking, and diet. I hope your Ekkie feels better.

 

[Mishwinnie]

Thanks for your response. He's booked in to go back to the vet, i feel awful and have started a log to try and investigate.

 

[Talaya]

Yes a log of all the veg & fruit you feed is brilliant. It sounds like he does react to something in his food. The tapping could take several days to subside.. The only other things I can think of is the water..
I switched mine from tap water to filtered .. then eventually to bought spring water and this helped. So now I have to buy bottles of spring water. .
Also what are his bowls make sure they’re stainless steel. Washed, rinsed and dried.. every time before feeding. what is the pot you use to cook his food like..only use or glass or stainless steel.
The variety of food needs regularly changing eg: every week or every month. I would also try pomegranate seeds, I was told by a breeder once they act like a natural antibiotic to them. So I give mine a table spoon or two a week as his fruit ‘allowance’. They can be frozen.

Cage and perches.. any rust, or damage to the powder coating.. if perches are wood are there any varnished or been chewed.. (maybe a wood species reaction)
What disinfectant do you use make sure it’s a bird one.

Next it’s looking more deeply at outside environment..
That there are no smellies in the air such as air fresheners or candles etc vacuum fresheners, perfumes/deodorants etc,
do you smoke or vape in the room.
has he been nibbling a house plant etc.
is there Damp or mould in the room.
these last ones are potentially more killers but in small doses could just cause a reaction.
Much love to you and your Ekkie.

EDIT: a long shot but you could look at The world’s recognized Eclectus expert information. She achieved the global award last year. Her website

Laurella Desborough's Eclectus Centre

Eclectus Parrots, Subspecies, Conservation, Philosophy, Avian Excellence

eclectusparrotcentre.com

And maybe reach out to her.

 

[kme3388]

I get lazy so if I can avoid typing a bunch I do. Nico has met with several vets, and zoologists when I was trying to get him help. None have recommended an all veggie diet. Imagine if we as a human only ate veggies. No gastrointestinal doc would want to meet with me. I’d make cdiff look delightful. They do need substance in their diet. Please consult a vet before feeding all veggies if that’s what anyone is doing for an Ekkie diet.

 

[saxguy64]

I'm so sorry to hear Winston is still having the tapping issues. It's heartbreaking to see them like that, and I can't imagine what it must be like for you and for him long term. Sending prayers for answers and relief for your boy.

Soooooo many potential triggers, and every bird reacts differently to them. My first go around with Tucker scared the crap out of me. I thought I had everything right, as best I could, but still, it happened. It's hard to pinpoint the cause sometimes since it comes on quickly, and even if you remove the cause, it takes several days to subside. My vet didn't see anything in his diet that SHOULD have been an issue, so since it's a neurological symptom, looked at other possibilities, and decided to test for ABV. Well, he's positive, but that wasn't the cause of the tapping, and he's free of any symptoms of ABV as (I believe) the majority are. ABV is much more prevalent in the US than most people realize, and while it has terrifying potential, it's more often undetected and NOT the kiss of death we read so much about. Again, yes it has that potential, so I'm not dismissing it lightly, don't get me wrong.

Okay, thank goodness the vet's suspicions were wrong, back to the task at hand: figuring out what caused the tapping. Over time, I've figured out some of Tucker's triggers. In his case, dark purple grapes, blueberries, sometimes corn, and too much protein. I used to give him a bit of hard boiled egg white to help him around heavy molting time. Nope, not any more. I've also almost completely removed fruits from his regular diet. The sugars make him too... amorous, shall we say He's really not a fan of greens, so while he still gets them every day, they're generally tossed. He'll eat a few Tops pellets, so at least there's SOMETHING green in there. Carrots, butternut squash and red peppers are most often his go-to, so he gets a good bit of them.

Oh, that reminds me, how is Winston on vitamin A levels? That, along with calcium, are two of the big culprits with causing ekkie toe tapping. Too much or too little, tap, tap, tap... I hope you and your vet can figure it out, and soon, poor baby. Keep us posted.

 

[kme3388]

I'm so sorry to hear Winston is still having the tapping issues. It's heartbreaking to see them like that, and I can't imagine what it must be like for you and for him long term. Sending prayers for answers and relief for your boy.

Soooooo many potential triggers, and every bird reacts differently to them. My first go around with Tucker scared the crap out of me. I thought I had everything right, as best I could, but still, it happened. It's hard to pinpoint the cause sometimes since it comes on quickly, and even if you remove the cause, it takes several days to subside. My vet didn't see anything in his diet that SHOULD have been an issue, so since it's a neurological symptom, looked at other possibilities, and decided to test for ABV. Well, he's positive, but that wasn't the cause of the tapping, and he's free of any symptoms of ABV as (I believe) the majority are. ABV is much more prevalent in the US than most people realize, and while it has terrifying potential, it's more often undetected and NOT the kiss of death we read so much about. Again, yes it has that potential, so I'm not dismissing it lightly, don't get me wrong.

Okay, thank goodness the vet's suspicions were wrong, back to the task at hand: figuring out what caused the tapping. Over time, I've figured out some of Tucker's triggers. In his case, dark purple grapes, blueberries, sometimes corn, and too much protein. I used to give him a bit of hard boiled egg white to help him around heavy molting time. Nope, not any more. I've also almost completely removed fruits from his regular diet. The sugars make him too... amorous, shall we say He's really not a fan of greens, so while he still gets them every day, they're generally tossed. He'll eat a few Tops pellets, so at least there's SOMETHING green in there. Carrots, butternut squash and red peppers are most often his go-to, so he gets a good bit of them.

Oh, that reminds me, how is Winston on vitamin A levels? That, along with calcium, are two of the big culprits with causing ekkie toe tapping. Too much or too little, tap, tap, tap... I hope you and your vet can figure it out, and soon, poor baby. Keep us posted.

Nico’s issues I personally believe have stemmed from his diet. I’ve also made little changes to his diet only to experience the “tap tap tap”. Trying to get him to eat anything healthy aside from sweet potato, and red peppers has been challenging. He’s not a fan of any fruit. He may take a bite out of a banana. I’ve started stuffing penne noodles with his chop otherwise he won’t eat it. I’ve seen his coloration brighten up. He seems to have a lot more energy as well.

 

[Thechoplady]

Im so sorry your having this problem. Its quite distressing when it happens. My girl stopped toe tapping, and wing flipping once i took away all pellets. Maybe it takes a while for the toe tapping to go away? I would keep the pellets away and make sure he always has a natural source of vitamin A every day (like carrots..and they need to be very slightly steamed, i make sure my girl's evening meal always includes carrot). Please keep us updated

 

[kme3388]

Im so sorry your having this problem. Its quite distressing when it happens. My girl stopped toe tapping, and wing flipping once i took away all pellets. Maybe it takes a while for the toe tapping to go away? I would keep the pellets away and make sure he always has a natural source of vitamin A every day (like carrots..and they need to be very slightly steamed, i make sure my girl's evening meal always includes carrot). Please keep us updated

May I ask what you feed your girl? She is beautiful

 

[Thechoplady]

May I ask what you feed your girl? She is beautiful

Hi Kme! Thank you! She gets a vegetable (no corn), grain, and legume chop. The chop I make for her changes with the seasons depending on what is in season. Fruit only occasionally as a treat, probably once every 3 days. She gets nuts and seeds as training treats or on the days we are not training i put those in foraging toys.

Her chop currently contains: couscous, oat groats, quinoa, tiny bit of pasta, mixed beans, yellow squash, kale, Swiss chard, turnips, peas, pea greens, sprouts, ....and regardless of the season i always include carrots, broccoli, and cauliflower.

I also take her into the shower with me every other day...i just put her on a T-stand and put the whole t stand into the shower lol.

 

[DonnaBudgie]

She's gorgeous!

 

[kme3388]

Hi Kme! Thank you! She gets a vegetable (no corn), grain, and legume chop. The chop I make for her changes with the seasons depending on what is in season. Fruit only occasionally as a treat, probably once every 3 days. She gets nuts and seeds as training treats or on the days we are not training i put those in foraging toys.

Her chop currently contains: couscous, oat groats, quinoa, tiny bit of pasta, mixed beans, yellow squash, kale, Swiss chard, turnips, peas, pea greens, sprouts, ....and regardless of the season i always include carrots, broccoli, and cauliflower.

I also take her into the shower with me every other day...i just put her on a T-stand and put the whole t stand into the shower lol.

Thank you, I’ve just always suspected Nico’s feather condition, and some of his medical issues has to do with his diet. He was on an all seed diet, with pellets also offered in his cage from my understanding for the first 16 years of his life. He of course when I brought him home only ate the seed, and it’s been a working progress. He’s such a picky eater so I try to see what other people’s Ekkie’s accept to see if Nico will as well.

 

[Thechoplady]

Thank you, I’ve just always suspected Nico’s feather condition, and some of his medical issues has to do with his diet. He was on an all seed diet, with pellets also offered in his cage from my understanding for the first 16 years of his life. He of course when I brought him home only ate the seed, and it’s been a working progress. He’s such a picky eater so I try to see what other people’s Ekkie’s accept to see if Nico will as well.

You have to wonder if Nico's past diet damaged his organs or system in some sort of permanent way. I dont think anyone knows for sure what long term irreversible damage is done to these birds when on the incorrect diet for years. Like people can develop permanent diabetes due to years of poor diet (either by choice or no fault of their own). Nico is lucky to have you now and no matter his medical issues...im sure he's feeling better under your care. Im currently contemplating adopting a male ekkie at a local rescue...he is very very feather picked. I know that even with the correct diet now, there is a good likelihood that he will always be feather damaged/picked due to past incorrect diet/neglect, etc.

Sophie has a tendency to pick through her chop and only eat what she wants...so there is alot of waste unfortunately.

 

[Thechoplady]

She's gorgeous!

Thank you!

 

[kme3388]

You have to wonder if Nico's past diet damaged his organs or system in some sort of permanent way. I dont think anyone knows for sure what long term irreversible damage is done to these birds when on the incorrect diet for years. Like people can develop permanent diabetes due to years of poor diet (either by choice or no fault of their own). Nico is lucky to have you now and no matter his medical issues...im sure he's feeling better under your care. Im currently contemplating adopting a male ekkie at a local rescue...he is very very feather picked. I know that even with the correct diet now, there is a good likelihood that he will always be feather damaged/picked due to past incorrect diet/neglect, etc.

Sophie has a tendency to pick through her chop and only eat what she wants...so there is alot of waste unfortunately.

Unfortunately Nico could be the poster boy for what a sun flower seed, and human food diet does to him. He’s still a great parrot. He’s beautiful to me. Nico will never grow back all of his feathers. I was informed of that.

 

[Thechoplady]

Unfortunately Nico could be the poster boy for what a sun flower seed, and human food diet does to him. He’s still a great parrot. He’s beautiful to me. Nico will never grow back all of his feathers. I was informed of that.

Nico is definitely beautiful .